57 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Alistair Winter, on 04 March 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

Unless the Shadowcat has a gauss ammo quirk, something like 30% or 50% extra ammo per ton, I have a feeling I will be the only one mounting a gauss rifle on that mech. Especially due to the excellent hardpoint positions for energy weapons

I think the Shadowcat needs a gauss ammo quirk, just as much as the AWS needs PPC quirks and the Centurion needs ballistic quirks. 2-3 tons of ammo isn't as much in MWO as in TT, since people are carrying double or triple amounts of stock armour.

Halp!

How about instead of making the game even MORE ridiculous, we instead reduce heat cap, rebalance heat dissipation (DHS truedubs and giving SHS a small heatcap boost would make both useful), then rebalance both ammo and armor to reasonable levels.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brody319, on 05 March 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

the only correct builds will be
ECM + 3 ERLL
6 machine guns + 2 LPL
7 machine guns + 1 LPL/ERPPC
2 ERPPC

running gauss will be a bad idea. gotta play it kinda like a Blackjack or a Cicada.

Gauss + 2 ERML will probably work better than 2 ERPPC.
16 tons is without ECM, giving it the same free tonnage as the Adder. 2 ERPPCs is hot on the Adder, and it doesn't have JJs to add to your heat, granted the SCat has all its TrueDubs™ so I guess that makes them about even as far as heat goes.

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Well, yeah, they are pretty terrible. But once upon a time, they had decent DPS. There was a time when you'd frequently see assault mechs boating triple AC2's. The AC2s need to be buffed, we can all agree on that. But without ammo, you'll rarely ever see them on the Blackjack that carries them stock.

Even if they are buffed, lights aren't meant for DPS, so using a weapon designed around DPS over alpha is a tad silly imo. So unless the AC2 can make up for the alpha power of an PPC/ERPPC or any complement of lasers, the AC2 will stay off lights.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 March 2015 - 04:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Brody319, on 05 March 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

the only correct builds will be
ECM + 3 ERLL
6 machine guns + 2 LPL
7 machine guns + 1 LPL/ERPPC
2 ERPPC

running gauss will be a bad idea. gotta play it kinda like a Blackjack or a Cicada.

I can do some SRM loadouts as well.

Dual LL, Tri SRM6 being an interesting one. A pair of LLs aren't threatening up close, but those SRMs certainly could be.

[Alistair Winter]

MauttyKoray, on 05 March 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

How about instead of making the game even MORE ridiculous, we instead reduce heat cap, rebalance heat dissipation (DHS truedubs and giving SHS a small heatcap boost would make both useful), then rebalance both ammo and armor to reasonable levels.

Oh, I'm fine with that too. But at this point, quirks seem to be the only way PGI is adjusting balance.

WM Quicksilver, on 05 March 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

Even if they are buffed, lights aren't meant for DPS, so using a weapon designed around DPS over alpha is a tad silly imo. So unless the AC2 can make up for the alpha power of an PPC/ERPPC or any complement of lasers, the AC2 will stay off lights.

I respectfully disagree. Exhibit A: The Ember. Or the Huginn. Or basically any mech that relies on MGs or rapid fire small lasers / SPLs. Of course, MGs have been nerfed to the point where Embers are basically extinct and Huginn's are often stripped of MGs, but that is just the way it looks at present, because PGI over-nerfed the MGs to deal with the previously OP Ember. (It was never really OP, just better than other light mechs)

The point is, DPS is a valid approach for light mechs with good speed. And it should certainly be viable for Blackjacks and other small mediums.

[Destructicus]

LEELO DALLAS MULTIPASS

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

Oh, I'm fine with that too. But at this point, quirks seem to be the only way PGI is adjusting balance.


I respectfully disagree. Exhibit A: The Ember. Or the Huginn. Or basically any mech that relies on MGs or rapid fire small lasers / SPLs. Of course, MGs have been nerfed to the point where Embers are basically extinct and Huginn's are often stripped of MGs, but that is just the way it looks at present, because PGI over-nerfed the MGs to deal with the previously OP Ember. (It was never really OP, just better than other light mechs)

The point is, DPS is a valid approach for light mechs with good speed. And it should certainly be viable for Blackjacks and other small mediums.

The Ember has 4 MLs that are its main weapons. You dont use MGs until the mech is cored.
The Huginn also doesn't rely on MGs, the SRM4s are the main punch and I've seen plenty that don't even bother with them.

So, unless they give outrageous DPS to a weapon, lights will always be better suited to huge alphas or burst damage.

[MauttyKoray]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

The Ember has 4 MLs that are its main weapons. You dont use MGs until the mech is cored.
The Huginn also doesn't rely on MGs, the SRM4s are the main punch and I've seen plenty that don't even bother with them.

So, unless they give outrageous DPS to a weapon, lights will always be better suited to huge alphas or burst damage.

The point of saving the MGs for the mech being cored is that it did more damage to internals (crits) than armor, thus using it on armor was considered a waste. However now that MG crit was overnerfed, they're basically a useless weapon like flamers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MauttyKoray, on 05 March 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

The point of saving the MGs for the mech being cored is that it did more damage to internals (crits) than armor, thus using it on armor was considered a waste. However now that MG crit was overnerfed, they're basically a useless weapon like flamers.

Yes, but thats the point. MGs weren't being used until something had already done most of the work. Thus why they weren't main weapons. You weren't using them as pure DPS machines until something was already cored (ie 2/3 of their HP was already down).

[Vanguard836]

627, on 05 March 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

I think 3 tons of Ammo for a single gauss are enough for a round...

But I'm all for more "passive", defensive skills instead of this steady powercreep.

Oh and +1 for Leeloo, I love that movie.

Agreed on 3 tons. Should the ammo quirk be seen on any mech it shouldn't be higher than that.

[Ace Selin]

NO... or give it to IS mechs too, like BJ, Hunch etc

[Brody319]

Ace Selin, on 05 March 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

NO... or give it to IS mechs too, like BJ, Hunch etc

The only one who should get ammo quirks is the Urbanmech.
It has limited tonnage and if PGI wants to encourage people to use the big ACs and not like Ac2s and Machine guns.

[Alistair Winter]

Ace Selin, on 05 March 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

NO... or give it to IS mechs too, like BJ, Hunch etc

Well, first of all, I don't care about IS vs Clans. I look at each mech at their individual merits. Second of all, I don't think the Shadowcat is underpowered, so it's not a matter of making it viable. It's more about letting the Shadowcat function the way it was designed to function, as an ECM gauss sniper. Giving it more ammo won't make it better, it will only make gauss a realistic alternative to lasers, which I don't think is the case otherwise. And third, by all means give ammo quirks to the BJ. I think it's a real problem that people are stripping AC2s of BJ's and only equipping lasers or AC20s instead. Sometimes you see the AC10 too. But almost never dual AC2s. On the Hunchback, I don't think it's a problem at all, because there's no one stripping the AC20 of the HBK-4G. Nobody. So you don't have to buff AC20 ammo to prevent the HBK-4G being used as a laserboat. And really, the Hunchback is one of the most popular IS medium mechs at the moment, thanks to its great quirks. IS has 11 medium mechs, and with the Hunchback being so popular, I don't think it needs more help at the moment.

But like I said, I judge each mech on its own merits. I don't care about the Clan vs IS rivalry. Just because you make the Ice Ferret less terrible doesn't mean you also have to buff a given Inner Sphere mech, for example.

Brody319, on 05 March 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

The only one who should get ammo quirks is the Urbanmech.
It has limited tonnage and if PGI wants to encourage people to use the big ACs and not like Ac2s and Machine guns.

You may see a few Urbies with triple machine guns, but I can pretty much guarantee the AC2 Urbie will never be a common build. Most people are talking more about using the Urbie as a laser boat, if the AC10 or AC20 doesn't work. In that sense, I wouldn't mind an ammo quirk for the Urbie. No problem.

[627]

Or we up the ammo counter in general.

I mean look at stock mechs and how little ammo supplies those mech carry. Obviously these were enough for tabletop or wasn't it so? never played TT.

So if (*if*) the stock ammo from a let's say catapult (2tons) was enough for a round in TT, maybe it should be enough for a round in MWO, too. At least "roughly"...

sure, this would buff all ammo dependent mechs, but maybe this should be at least considered and though about imho.

[Alistair Winter]

627, on 05 March 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Or we up the ammo counter in general.
I mean look at stock mechs and how little ammo supplies those mech carry. Obviously these were enough for tabletop or wasn't it so? never played TT.
So if (*if*) the stock ammo from a let's say catapult (2tons) was enough for a round in TT, maybe it should be enough for a round in MWO, too. At least "roughly"...
sure, this would buff all ammo dependent mechs, but maybe this should be at least considered and though about imho.

I'm open to the idea. I think it may benefit heavies more than lights, but I'm open to it.

A side bonus from increasing ammo per ton across the board is that stock mech mode is suddenly a lot more fun. I haven't played stock mech games in MWO, but my understanding is that mechs with big ballistics and missile launchers, with only 1-2 tons of ammo per weapon, tend to get owned by energy / ppc-boats.

[Brody319]

haven't we already doubled ammo before?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

627, on 05 March 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Or we up the ammo counter in general.

I mean look at stock mechs and how little ammo supplies those mech carry. Obviously these were enough for tabletop or wasn't it so? never played TT.

So if (*if*) the stock ammo from a let's say catapult (2tons) was enough for a round in TT, maybe it should be enough for a round in MWO, too. At least "roughly"...

sure, this would buff all ammo dependent mechs, but maybe this should be at least considered and though about imho.

Most of the Clan ammo shortages were meant that way.

The LRM20s on the Mad Dog and Timber Wolf? Throwaways. 2 LRM20s produce the same amount of heat as an ERLL, so you would use the LRM20s when you had good numbers and could use the boosted damage but you could only do it for 6 turns.

Brody319, on 05 March 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

haven't we already doubled ammo before?

No, some ammo types like SRMs and MGs weren't increased from TT at all.
Gauss was only increased by 25%
ACs and LRMs by 50% (rounded down)
NARC was actually doubled.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 March 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[627]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

I'm open to the idea. I think it may benefit heavies more than lights, but I'm open to it.

A side bonus from increasing ammo per ton across the board is that stock mech mode is suddenly a lot more fun. I haven't played stock mech games in MWO, but my understanding is that mechs with big ballistics and missile launchers, with only 1-2 tons of ammo per weapon, tend to get owned by energy / ppc-boats.

You definitely think twice before you shoot in stock mechs, yes.

Brody319, on 05 March 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

haven't we already doubled ammo before?

Imho only armor was "doubled" while Ammo was upped a bit. not by a plain multiplier but more or less damage per ton was the initial criteria. And after that some fine tuning but not doubling.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

I can do some SRM loadouts as well.

Dual LL, Tri SRM6 being an interesting one. A pair of LLs aren't threatening up close, but those SRMs certainly could be.

I was thinking of doing like 2 CERMEDs + 3 SSRM6s on the Scat. That should easily replace the Streakcrow in my current rotation (can't deal with 4 SSRM6s personally, I'd rather run a Maddog if I had to ran SSRM24 anyways).