22 replies to this topic

[Ultra-Laser]

Let players on a permanent contract earn loyalty points for other factions by dropping on their planets and/or with pilots from that faction.

I've heard a lot of incredibly cool sounding ways to give loyalist units something to distinguish them from mercs besides not needing to renew their contracts, the notion that loyalist units would be the ones in charge of handling merc contracts seems particularly popular. But many of these proposed solutions require a level of complexity that CW simply isn't ready for and likely won't be for some time. I am here to present a solution that simply adjusts the mechanics of the system that is already in place rather then requiring an entirely new one to be built from the ground up.

Awarding LP based on what fraction of what pilots were in a given drop sounds like it would be the easiest to do, but it is also thoroughly unsatisfying to fluff-lovers such as myself. I have written up a (incomplete, haphazard) list of mostly possible fluff-friendly matchups of what loyalists would be able to defend who from what. I tried to have it set up so that loyalists would be able to defend as many factions as possible, but I really had to stretch it.

Spoiler

Please note that this list assumes that the first faction listed will be the faction on the defense.
-DRACONIS COMBINE loyalists will be able to defend in:
INNER SPHERE VS CLANS
FRR VS INNER SPHERE (yes this includes FRR vs Draconis Combine, we Ronin Wars now)
CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION VS FEDERATED SUNS
FEDERATED SUNS VS LYRAN ALLIANCE (The weakest in terms of fluff justification, all I can find of the DC allying one half of the FedCom over the other is a throwaway line from during the FedCom civil war)
FREE WORLDS LEAGUE VS FEDERATED SUNS
FREE WORLDS LEAGUE VS LYRAN ALLIANCE

-FRR loyalists will be able to defend in:
INNER SPHERE VS CLANS
DRACONIS COMBINE VS FEDERATED SUNS*
LYRAN ALLIANCE VS FREE WORLDS LEAGUE*

-FREE WORLDS LEAGUE loyalists will be able to defend in:
INNER SPHERE VS CLANS
CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION VS FEDERATED SUNS
DRACONIS COMBINE VS FEDERATED SUNS
DRACONIS COMBINE VS LYRAN ALLIANCE
FEDERATED SUNS VS LYRAN ALLIANCE*

-CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION loyalists will be able to defend in:
INNER SPHERE VS CLANS
DRACONIS COMBINE VS FEDERATED SUNS
DRACONIS COMBINE VS LYRAN ALLIANCE
FEDERATED SUNS VS LYRAN ALLIANCE
LYRAN ALLIANCE VS FEDERATED SUNS (Fighting proxy wars to destabilize the FedCom seems like something they'd be into right?)
FREE WORLDS LEAGUE VS FEDERATED SUNS

-LYRAN ALLIANCE loyalists will be able to defend in:
INNER SPHERE VS CLANS
FEDERATED SUNS VS INNER SPHERE (This includes FedSuns vs Lyran Alliance, FedCom civil war might come early after all)
FRR VS INNER SPHERE (may or may not be allowed in FRR vs Lyran Alliance matches, they can already defend the FRR vs clans and there is no fluff justification for it unlike with the DC.)
CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION VS FREE WORLDS LEAGUE
FREE WORLDS LEAGUE VS CAPPELAN CONFEDERATION (much like the CapCon's justification for defending in FedCom conflicts above)

-FREE WORLDS LEAGUE loyalists will be able to defend in:
INNER SPHERE VS CLANS
DRACONIS COMBINE VS LYRAN ALLIANCE
DRACONIS COMBINE VS FEDERATED SUNS
CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION VS FEDERATED SUNS
FEDERATED SUNS VS LYRAN ALLIANCE

-CLAN loyalists will be able to defend in:
CLAN VS INNER SPHERE
DUNNO LOL (I urge any and all clannerfans reading this post to give suggestions, inter-clan relations are not my strong point)

*As far as I am aware there is no fluff precedent for this, but its plausible enough to be included here.

Apologies if the proposed list of combinations above seems a bit Kurita centric. I tried to have this post be as much for loyalists of every faction as I could, but it should be a pretty easy guess as to which house I'm on permanent contract with. Apologies again to all you Clan loyalists out there who I left out in the single-faction-LP-rewards snow.

Adjusting the LP reward system this way would have several benefits for all loyalists, Inner Sphere loyalist especially. The first and most obvious would be that there would be less prominent benefits to faction hopping and, conversely, fewer drawbacks to staying loyal. The second benefit would be that factions suffering from low populations would have a wider pool of possible defenders for their worlds and attackers would not have to sit through so many ghost drops. The third benefit is that conflicts between Inner Sphere factions, particularly the southerners, would not place as much of a drain on loyalist pilots as they do now.

The specifics of this idea aren't critical, but here is how I would see it done if I were the man in charge.

1) Dropping on a given factions planet nets you half the win bonus reward of your current contract plus half the rewards of the faction you're dropping in the defense of. So if a Draconis Combine Pilot (current win bonus rewards are 100,000 c-bills and 150 LP with permanent contract multiplier) drops in the defense of a Free World League planet (current rewards 62,500 c-bills and 65 LP with no contract multiplier) if he won he would receive a grand total of 81,250 c-bills, 75 LP for house Kurita, and 33 LP for House Marik with whatever LP he earned in that match being split no more then 50/50 and the larger share of points being rewarded in favor of this parent faction. This way loyalists can earn LP for factions other then their own, but are still rewarded for fighting for their home faction above all.

2) "Loyalist" does not mandate a permanent contract. I'm less sure of the specifics of how this portion would work, but renewing the 30 day contract for one faction and only one faction for months on end ought to count for something.

3) If the "fraction of pilots from a given faction fighting on your team gives you LP based on what faction they are" method is chosen alongside/instead of the ability for Inner Sphere pilots to drop in defense of other factions in IS vs IS battles, then these LP are rewarded in addition to the usual LP bonuses for fighting and winning, rather then being divided up like in 1). These rewards would likely be miniscule (single digit % per faction pilot in the group), but at least it's there providing a source of non-factional LP to the loyalist player.

Edited by Ultra-Laser, 07 March 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[ice trey]

I'm against it, myself.

We've got enough mindless pugs dropping in defense of worlds that border the clans, and are very good at losing the worlds to them. I don't want any more mechanics to further encourage them to drop as disorganized pugs rather than in a 12-man with teamspeak.

I'd say only give points for other factions if they're dropping as a full 12-man group. Otherwise, no.

Edited by ice trey, 07 March 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[Ultra-Laser]

ice trey, on 07 March 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

I'm against it, myself.

We've got enough mindless pugs dropping in defense of worlds that border the clans, and are very good at losing the worlds to them. I don't want any more mechanics to further encourage them to drop as disorganized pugs rather than in a 12-man with teamspeak.

I'd say only give points for other factions if they're dropping as a full 12-man group. Otherwise, no.

I'm reasonably optimistic that CW will slowly shift away from the over-emphasis on 12-mans in CW as the year progresses, but pubbie rabbles are inevitable even without these proposed changes. In the meantime think of it this way, would you rather spend ten minutes in line for a ghost drop, or ten minutes farming hapless pubbies for hundreds of thousands of c-bills, or getting two sub-five minute light rushes done?

[ice trey]

Ultra-Laser, on 07 March 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

I'm reasonably optimistic that CW will slowly shift away from the over-emphasis on 12-mans in CW as the year progresses, but pubbie rabbles are inevitable even without these proposed changes. In the meantime think of it this way, would you rather spend ten minutes in line for a ghost drop, or ten minutes farming hapless pubbies for hundreds of thousands of c-bills, or getting two sub-five minute light rushes done?

I'd rather get good matches against real teams. Ghost Drops are only there to get the other side to wake up and play. I'd rather more players show up in Teamspeak so that we can consistently get more groups to drop together and do something useful.

If the puggles want to play, I'd be fine with it, but pug-on-pug is the way it should be. Specific worlds dedicated to pug play only, and not allowing sync drops. Lower rewards for lower effort.

Edited by ice trey, 07 March 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[BigBucket]

I agree that the Loyalist reward system needs some work. It does not make sense that Loyalists earn the rewards faster than mercenaries as all that means is in the end they are "maxed" out faster and no longer have anything to look forward to.

Perhaps some additional rewards would be better than faster ones. Things such as Faction appropriate Mechs, colors, camos, MC, etc.

[Ultra-Laser]

ice trey, on 07 March 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'd rather get good matches against real teams. Ghost Drops are only there to get the other side to wake up and play. I'd rather more players show up in Teamspeak so that we can consistently get more groups to drop together and do something useful.

If the puggles want to play, I'd be fine with it, but pug-on-pug is the way it should be. Specific worlds dedicated to pug play only, and not allowing sync drops. Lower rewards for lower effort.

Fair points on the pugs, but you have no objection to the basic idea that Loyalists need a way to earn LP outside of their faction correct?

BigBucket, on 07 March 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

I agree that the Loyalist reward system needs some work. It does not make sense that Loyalists earn the rewards faster than mercenaries as all that means is in the end they are "maxed" out faster and no longer have anything to look forward to.

Perhaps some additional rewards would be better than faster ones. Things such as Faction appropriate Mechs, colors, camos, MC, etc.

Here's the thing, giving loyalist units access to faction specific unique goodies doesn't actually solve the problem. The problem is that units that only want to fight for one particular faction are punished for doing so because of the way LP rewards are currently structured. Giving units on a permanent contract extra goodies just gives them some extra ticks to fill until their maxed out again. If we get a way for players to earn LP for factions they don't have a contract with then there simply wouldn't be a burning need to give faction loyalists exclusive loot.

[DaFrog]

Mercs should not get loyalty points. PERIOD.

[Ultra-Laser]

DaFrog, on 07 March 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Mercs should not get loyalty points. PERIOD.

That's a bit extreme, I don't think the zillions of players who already have LP from multiple factions would be particularly keen on having all their LP related loot taken away either. All I want if for loyalist units to have a fair shot at that same loot that the mercs do without having to "betray" their home faction. No need to punish mercs for being mercs.

Edited by Ultra-Laser, 07 March 2015 - 10:17 PM.

[BigBucket]

I just do not agree with earning LP for factions B C and D while you kill them as a member of faction A. This is why rewards you can only gain as a loyalist would be better in my opinion.

DaFrog, on 07 March 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Mercs should not get loyalty points. PERIOD.

Interesting idea. Wasn't there even talk at one time that a merc loses LP for the faction he kills another pilot from?

[Ultra-Laser]

BigBucket, on 07 March 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

I just do not agree with earning LP for factions B C and D while you kill them as a member of faction A. This is why rewards you can only gain as a loyalist would be better in my opinion.



Interesting idea. Wasn't there even talk at one time that a merc loses LP for the faction he kills another pilot from?

You wouldn't be earning points for factions B C and D while killing them, you would be earning points for factions B C and D while defending them as a member of faction A. Earning LP for another faction by defending their boarders is far from absurd, especially in a game where the clans are able and willing to hire mercenary units left right and center.

The fact is that there is no restriction on units signing on to be "loyalists" once they've maxed out the merc LP rewards, grinding the loyalist rewards out, and jumping ship to do it all over again with the next faction other then c-bill penalties. Who in the depths of grind is afraid of shedding a few c-bills anyway?. The idea of a loyalty "score" that can go up or down to complement or contrast the current "points" system is certainly an interesting one, but until we have a reason for that score to matter it does nothing to address the restrictions being indirectly placed on units and players with permanent contracts. If you'd be more satisfied with only being allowed to use an alternative LP rewards structure if you were on a permanent contract then I could get that, but you yourself said that the only advantage a permanent contract gets you right now is grinding out that factions rewards faster before maxing out. Permanent contract exclusive goodies won't fix this, I won't turn up my nose at them if they do come along, but they'd just be building on the faction hopping vs permanent contract dynamic rather then changing it.

My two objectives when I wrote the OP were to present an adjustment to the present system to allow players on a permanent contract a way to earn LP for factions other then their main one and to do it with as little new infrastructure as possible by working with the system in its present state as much as such a proposal would allow. It has it's own shortcomings sure, but if some PGI folks happen to glance at this thread I want them to see something they could have ready to launch in a few weeks or months as opposed to something we might be lucky to get a glimpse of within a year.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

@Ultra-Laser ... really like this idea for IS vs Clan fights only. However, LP should be earned at a significantly decreased rate for both your current alignment and the defended planet's alignment. For example, a Kurita-aligned mechwarrior defending a Raselhague planet should get partial LP for both ... but, it should not, in my opinion, add up to the LP that would be earned for defending a Kurita planet.

To the guys saying "12v12 only" or "mercs shouldn't get LP" ... do you really want to exclude such a large number of people from playing in CW?

[Ultra-Laser]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 08 March 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

@Ultra-Laser ... really like this idea for IS vs Clan fights only. However, LP should be earned at a significantly decreased rate for both your current alignment and the defended planet's alignment. For example, a Kurita-aligned mechwarrior defending a Raselhague planet should get partial LP for both ... but, it should not, in my opinion, add up to the LP that would be earned for defending a Kurita planet.

To the guys saying "12v12 only" or "mercs shouldn't get LP" ... do you really want to exclude such a large number of people from playing in CW?

I actually do address this in the OP.

Ultra-Laser, on 07 March 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

1) Dropping on a given factions planet nets you half the win bonus reward of your current contract plus half the rewards of the faction you're dropping in the defense of. So if a Draconis Combine Pilot (current win bonus rewards are 100,000 c-bills and 150 LP with permanent contract multiplier) drops in the defense of a Free World League planet (current rewards 62,500 c-bills and 65 LP with no contract multiplier) if he won he would receive a grand total of 81,250 c-bills, 75 LP for house Kurita, and 33 LP for House Marik with whatever LP he earned in that match being split no more then 50/50 and the larger share of points being rewarded in favor of this parent faction. This way loyalists can earn LP for factions other then their own, but are still rewarded for fighting for their home faction above all.

Keep in mind that the hypothetical Kurita mechwarrior above is receiving the reward multipliers for his permanent contract with Kurita but has no such contract with Marik, and thus has no bonus multiplier. Also keep in mind that he's only earning half the Kuritan LP he could have gotten if he'd been a Kurita pilot defending a Kurita held world, nor is he making nearly as much Marik LP as a merc on contract with house Marik would for that matter. If the situation were reversed then a given Marik player would receive 49 LP from Marik and 50 LP from Kurita, but that's only if his team wins. You concern can be immediately addressed simply by adjusting what fraction of the match LP rewards go to which faction, going from a 50/50 split to 75/25 for example.

Your "for IS vs Clan fights only" comment has my attention however. What is your exact concern? Do you want a greater emphasis on IS vs Clan battles rather then letting individual factions fight it out? Do you find such a loose handling of the lore to justify letting Pilots drop in defense of other factions to be absurd? Or are you coming from the opposite side of the argument, and find such hard coded restrictions from the old fluff to be placing too severe of a limit on player input? Do you have an alternative suggestion in mind?

Edited by Ultra-Laser, 09 March 2015 - 01:53 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Ultra-Laser, on 09 March 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Your "for IS vs Clan fights only" comment has my attention however. What is your exact concern? Do you want a greater emphasis on IS vs Clan battles rather then letting individual factions fight it out? Do you find such a loose handling of the lore to justify letting Pilots drop in defense of other factions to be absurd? Or are you coming from the opposite side of the argument, and find such hard coded restrictions from the old fluff to be placing too severe of a limit on player input? Do you have an alternative suggestion in mind?

I think that a significant part of the reason why the Clans have been allowed to advance as far as they have is that too many IS forces have been focused on the Marik-Liao-Davion side of the sphere, and not dedicating resources to the Clan-IS borders.

I don't mind the lore-based ideas for faction alignments, and it could work, but as Steiner, FRR, and Kurita start getting pounded by the Clans, the rewards should be greater for defending against them, and the faction squabbles should matter less.

Along the same lines, the distinct lack of inter-Clan fighting enabled them to push as far as they did as fast as they did. While the Clans should be dedicating their premier forces (the large groups) to the attacks, the second-line forces (the solo droppers) should be rewarded appropriately (by their parent Clan and the owner of the defended planet) for successful garrison duty.

[Ultra-Laser]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 March 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

I think that a significant part of the reason why the Clans have been allowed to advance as far as they have is that too many IS forces have been focused on the Marik-Liao-Davion side of the sphere, and not dedicating resources to the Clan-IS borders.

I don't mind the lore-based ideas for faction alignments, and it could work, but as Steiner, FRR, and Kurita start getting pounded by the Clans, the rewards should be greater for defending against them, and the faction squabbles should matter less.

Along the same lines, the distinct lack of inter-Clan fighting enabled them to push as far as they did as fast as they did. While the Clans should be dedicating their premier forces (the large groups) to the attacks, the second-line forces (the solo droppers) should be rewarded appropriately (by their parent Clan and the owner of the defended planet) for successful garrison duty.

If we had access to stats regarding active faction population I might be able to make an argument about player populations and c-bill incentives, but all I have right now is is the last reward adjustments announcement.

http://mwomercs.com/...and-rasalhague/

House Kurita and the FRR both give out 100k c-bills and 100 LP on a win, the only southern house that can match that is house Liao. The only explanation I have for House Steiner giving out half that much is that until recently they only had 1-2 clan fronts to deal with. Still plenty of room to argue about things like who has how many active fronts vs active players, but I'm stalled out from a lack of hard data. Personally I think that the number of teams fighting matters more then the number of players in a given faction, so if you want to incentivize more effective teamwork in CW we could talk about having a c-bill/GXP/LP bonus based on how many people are in your group. It's a worthwhile thing to talk about, but I want to keep this thread on the topic of loyalist rewards rather then rewards in general.

The contract rewards are the most visible incentive for fighting on a clan front vs an IS front, but the contract rewards themselves aren't strictly for fighting on the clan front, they're for winning a match in CW while on contract with that faction. Both Kurita and Steiner have had fights on their southern boarders on and off since CW started. If we go with my half-player-faction-half-planet-holding-faction reward suggestion then we could be having Davion/Marik loyalists dropping in defense of the FRR and house Kurita and making nearly as much from the DC/FRR half of their contract alone then they would make fighting inter-house turf wars in the south. This wouldn't punish Marik/Liao/Davion players by directly penalizing inter-house conflict (which is something I strongly wish to avoid if possible, stormcrow/Twolf/Hellbringer can get just as boring and tedious as thundercheese/light rush, but if you're able to alternate them its not as bad). They'd still be making more loyalty points overall by fighting for their own houses, but fighting on the clan front means that they get a slice of those lovely Steiner/FRR/Kurita LP and c-bill goodies. I don't know about you but "giant pile of space money" sounds like a way better reason to fight on behalf on another faction then "for the common good".

I don't think that Kurita/Steiner/FRR loyalists being able to drop in defense of their southern allies will put a major strain on manpower available for the clan fronts either. The reason being that loyalists are, well, loyal. Loyalist players want to see their faction triumph and prosper, even if it is just as dots on a map, and I think they can largely be counted on to put their side first in CW. I'm sure we'd get a fair numbers of 12-man teams looking to test their might against someone other then their usual opponents, but for the most part I think its going to be people in it for some quick c-bills or maybe a new mechbay. Which they can then put you use assembling a shiny new mech to fight the clans with!

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Ultra-Laser, on 09 March 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't know about you but "giant pile of space money" sounds like a way better reason to fight on behalf on another faction then "for the common good".

Yep ... I guess I'm a bit biased ... I felt that the "southern" IS house loyalists were very slow to address the real threat, and just let Steiner, FRR, and Kurita get schwacked while Marik, Liao, and Davion jockeyed for who would defend Terra.

The house priorities need to be reflected in the LP rewards ... for example, if defeating Kurita is not a Davion priority at the moment, then the LP rewards should be lower for attacking Kurita or supporting an attack against Kurita. As it is right now, CW is basically a chess match (or pissing contest, depending on your perspective) between the unit leaders of the biggest mercenary corps (and the players that can convince them to fight for them).

[Ultra-Laser]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 09 March 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

Yep ... I guess I'm a bit biased ... I felt that the "southern" IS house loyalists were very slow to address the real threat, and just let Steiner, FRR, and Kurita get schwacked while Marik, Liao, and Davion jockeyed for who would defend Terra.

The house priorities need to be reflected in the LP rewards ... for example, if defeating Kurita is not a Davion priority at the moment, then the LP rewards should be lower for attacking Kurita or supporting an attack against Kurita. As it is right now, CW is basically a chess match (or pissing contest, depending on your perspective) between the unit leaders of the biggest mercenary corps (and the players that can convince them to fight for them).

It's not so much chess as it is a giant game of Risk where you don't get bonuses for controlling continents and you have robot fights rather then dice rolls, so individual planets matter only so far as taking them can close/open another front. Having different fronts for a given faction give out differing rewards is worth considering, but anything more complicated then a flat bonus to IS vs Clan games is going to have complications. What limits are there to these bonuses and who sets priorities for a given faction? PGI's manual handling of LP reward adjustments is notoriously sluggish (Steiner is still only giving out 50k compared to the FRR/Kurita's 100K despite getting shoved in by both green and purple birds nonstop for weeks) and putting players in charge risks them maxing out rewards on fronts where that faction can already get easy wins/ghost drops while the fronts that actually need more attention are left to fold. It might be worth adding in later, but I'd rather get cross faction LP in first.

[Vincent Lynch]

While i think that no player of a IS faction should be able to defend a planet for another faction against another IS faction (and vice versa for Clans), as it is now:
I don't think it makes much sense to get, for example, Davion Loyalist points for defending a Kurita World against Ghost Bears just because you are Davion.
If you defend a planet for another faction, you should get LP from exactly that faction who owns the planet.

[Gorgo7]

It's a silly poll.
One option that is missing is "NO"

[Telmasa]

I'd like to be loyalist to one IS faction *and* one Clan faction at the same time.

It won't ever happen (come on, Ghost Bear Dominion!), but that's what I'd truely like.


That is honest to goodness, though, the biggest reason I keep changing contracts - I'm unhappy being stuck with *only* my IS collection or my Clan collection of mechs, and I really do not like the idea of going through all the hoops to make a second account, buy a bunch of premium time and mechs, grind all the experience, and load it out with the second type of faction.

It's a whole lot of catch-22s, so I understand that, for now, the policy is "no, just suck it up and choose a side".

But I also don't think that Paul & whoever else should be seeing the rate of faction-swapping as a problem.



SO: that all said, giving higher (much higher) rewards for being a full loyalist, is a good idea in my view - cause the trade-off, at least for anybody with similar mindsets to me, is having half the fun.

Allowing loyalists to get some extra goodies in the way this thread stipulates wouldn't upset me a bit.

Edited by Telmasa, 12 March 2015 - 10:08 PM.

[Ultra-Laser]

Gorgo7, on 12 March 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

It's a silly poll.
One option that is missing is "NO"

My intent when making the thread was to gather visible public support and discussion of the idea rather then asking it a yes/no question. Nice catch though, I see I made the right choice implying that dissent was impossible. :^)

Telmasa, on 12 March 2015 - 10:06 PM, said:

snip

What I'm hoping for is that CW eventually gets a 9/3 restriction for IS/Clan or Clan/IS games, much like public groups have the 3/3/3/3 restrictions for weight classes. Having the limit of three of the "other sides" mechs be on your team means that you would stop short of a full lance while being able to evenly distribute them across the three lances in each company. It wouldn't be required that each premade have three players in the other factions tech but this way the IS loyalists who also have clan mechs wouldn't be completely out in the cold, even if "mixtech" teams are only allowed on the clan/IS borders (salvage wooo!).