102 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

I've been trying to come up with a load out worth a darn for my Enforcer 5P and I am starting to have Vindicator 1X flashbacks.

*sigh*...

Why do we have Medium mechs with WAY too many ballistic hard points that we can't realistically use?

I thought the Vindi 1X was problematic, the Enforcer 5P is downright brutal. At least the Vindicator 1X had 2 energy (even if the head laser could at best be a MPLaser), and 1 missile hard point. The Enforcer 5P is 4 ballistic and 1 energy...ugh!!

Why so many ballistic hard points? The Vindicator has 3 ballistics. For a 45 ton Medium, you can't mount 3 A/C2s or A/C5s realistically. It isn't also worth running 3MGs or less. The Vindicator 1X isn't going to run 3MGs and a LLaser, MLaser and an SRM launcher. It could, and maybe it could get by, but why?

The worst is the Enforcer 5P. It has 4 ballistic hard points and 1 low mount energy. It is quirked to carry 2 UA/C5s, yet it has 4 ballistic hard points. Therefore I have 1 energy backup.

I can't run the Ultras because of the terrible jam rate. I can't run 4A/C2s due to severe ammo limitations and slow speed. I can't run 4MGs because I have only 1 energy hard point. If I ran a ERPPC its too slow to work with 4MGs. The Enforcer would basically have a slightly better Locust 1V load out lol.

So what is the point of so many ballistic hard points? The best I have done so far with the 5P is 1 LBX10, 1 ERPPC, and 3MGs. It is really too slow (81 kph).

Why couldn't we get 1 extra energy hardpoint and get 1 less ballistic?

Anyway, that's my venting rant. Maybe if the Enforcer gets an Ultra jam frequency reduction quirk or something I won't feel so bad. Still, it doesn't answer the fact of why so many ballistic hard points (heavy weapons with ammo), on such light mechs that can't utilize it? At least on most lights, there are multiple energy hard points to back it up, and not just 1 (unless your a poor Locust 1V).

*sigh*

[FupDup]

1. Make MGs not suck. For reals this time.

2. Give MGs a rate of fire module, because nearly everything else gets to fire 12% faster.

3. Advance timeline, give us Light ACs and Magshots for the IS. AP Gauss and Protomech ACs for Clans. MG Arrays for everyone!1!!

4. ???

5. DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA



For the Enforcer 5P specifically, it's another case study of why Binary Laser Cannons should totally be a thing in MWO. They're even timeline friendly. There's even a canon Zeus variant available right now with one stock...but PGI skipped that variant.

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm with you Fup, because there is no realistic reason for this many ballistic hard points on certain variants with the weapons we have at hand.

Heck, even if the 5P had 1 extra energy (4 ballistic, 2 Energy), it would be a whole different situation.

[Greenjulius]

MGs being fixed are a must, or another ballistic weapon that can be used by low tonnage mechs will have to be introduced. Binary lasers would be welcome as well, and would make so much sense for limited hardpoint mechs, the ENF-5P being an obvious one.

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

2. Give MGs a rate of fire module, because nearly everything else gets to fire 12% faster.

Amusingly, if you set a macro to fire MGs every 1/1000 of a second, it will actually increase your effective DPS slightly. MGs are nerfed in all kinds of ways.

Edited by Greenjulius, 09 March 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Insects]

Better too many than too few.
Allows the option of 4x AC2, better than MG at least.

Im running the UAC's with XL295 and as much ammo as I can pack, which is only 130 or something, got to refrain from wasting ammo.
I find it OK, though I do prefer unlimited vomit mechs, especially since hitreg eats a percentage of my ballistic shots even on stationary targets.

Reduced UAC jam rate would really be nice suitable quirk.
UAC's really are over nerfed, DPS averages to the sameas AC but they weight more and take an extra slot so really they are a bit worse a lot of the time.

+1 buff MG and flamer.
Add 25% damage plus give +12% damage module and they should come good.

Edited by joelmuzz, 09 March 2015 - 06:38 AM.

[Reitrix]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 March 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

I've been trying to come up with a load out worth a darn for my Enforcer 5P and I am starting to have Vindicator 1X flashbacks.

*sigh*...

Why do we have Medium mechs with WAY too many ballistic hard points that we can't realistically use?

I thought the Vindi 1X was problematic, the Enforcer 5P is downright brutal. At least the Vindicator 1X had 2 energy (even if the head laser could at best be a MPLaser), and 1 missile hard point. The Enforcer 5P is 4 ballistic and 1 energy...ugh!!

Why so many ballistic hard points? The Vindicator has 3 ballistics. For a 45 ton Medium, you can't mount 3 A/C2s or A/C5s realistically. It isn't also worth running 3MGs or less. The Vindicator 1X isn't going to run 3MGs and a LLaser, MLaser and an SRM launcher. It could, and maybe it could get by, but why?

The worst is the Enforcer 5P. It has 4 ballistic hard points and 1 low mount energy. It is quirked to carry 2 UA/C5s, yet it has 4 ballistic hard points. Therefore I have 1 energy backup.

I can't run the Ultras because of the terrible jam rate. I can't run 4A/C2s due to severe ammo limitations and slow speed. I can't run 4MGs because I have only 1 energy hard point. If I ran a ERPPC its too slow to work with 4MGs. The Enforcer would basically have a slightly better Locust 1V load out lol.

So what is the point of so many ballistic hard points? The best I have done so far with the 5P is 1 LBX10, 1 ERPPC, and 3MGs. It is really too slow (81 kph).

Why couldn't we get 1 extra energy hardpoint and get 1 less ballistic?

Anyway, that's my venting rant. Maybe if the Enforcer gets an Ultra jam frequency reduction quirk or something I won't feel so bad. Still, it doesn't answer the fact of why so many ballistic hard points (heavy weapons with ammo), on such light mechs that can't utilize it? At least on most lights, there are multiple energy hard points to back it up, and not just 1 (unless your a poor Locust 1V).

*sigh*

Standard Engine with a pair of UAC5s and a single Medium Laser is so far my single best performing Enforcer ........


Maybe stop spamming shots and fire them singularly? I can get an insane RoF out of my UAC5s on both my Enforcer and the PPC UAC5 build i use on my K2.

[wanderer]

It's another case of the Ballistics Gap kicking in.

There's an entire line of retrotech-friendly rifles that could go into that right now and render hardpoints essentially fit only for MGs useful for more weaponry.

[Logan Hawke]

wanderer, on 09 March 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

It's another case of the Ballistics Gap kicking in.

There's an entire line of retrotech-friendly rifles that could go into that right now and render hardpoints essentially fit only for MGs useful for more weaponry.

I do wish we had mech rifles, even as bad as they are.

[Lily from animove]

mediums are a big size increase compared to lights. yet the armor and hp increase is as small and llinear as in the TT.
MG's on speedy hard to hit lights work. On mediums they suddenly fail because mediums don't go that close usally, at last not with such a stream weapon like "facetime" because then they are one or 2 alphas to death.

No idea whey they have it, but it's suicidal nonsense on meduims.

[MeiSooHaityu]

joelmuzz, on 09 March 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Better too many than too few.
Allows the option of 4x AC2, better than MG at least.

It's fun for the lols, but too heavy to really be nice.

If I run 4A/C2s and an XL250 (81 kph un-tweaked), in the testing grounds, I had enough ammo to kill 1 light mech, 1 light medium (cicada), and damaged a Cat C1 before running out of ammo. It just isn't remotely practical. Its a high DPS gun that devours ammo. I like how hilarious it is to use, but I'd feel bad using it in combat.

Like I said though, even with a Jam Reduction to UA/C5s, I'm still not using the 2 remaining ballistic hard points.

Even if I used the remaining 2 hard points for MGs, I'm not sure 2 MGs and ammo is worth 2 tons.

[FupDup]

wanderer, on 09 March 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

It's another case of the Ballistics Gap kicking in.

There's an entire line of retrotech-friendly rifles that could go into that right now and render hardpoints essentially fit only for MGs useful for more weaponry.

As long as PGI ignored their -3 damage to armor penalty, that would be kewl to have...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Standard Engine with a pair of UAC5s and a single Medium Laser is so far my single best performing Enforcer ........


Maybe stop spamming shots and fire them singularly? I can get an insane RoF out of my UAC5s on both my Enforcer and the PPC UAC5 build i use on my K2.

My ® Enforcer is currently my best ( 1 A/C10, 3 MPLasers at about 90 something kph). It is fun.

Anyway, I understand the fire discipline and I can see where your coming from, but if I'm firing that conservatively, I might as well go 2 A/C5s. 2 std A/C5s for that size mech with 1 energy is a bit underwhelming.

I actually think the Enforcer 5P is a little before it's time because I feel Jam quirks will be a thing, but the mech came out before the quirk.

[Morang]

Just think of mechs with too many ballistics/too few energy as of mechs oriented towards big guns with possibility to add MGs for eating internals (rarely used for reasons listed above).

Edited by Morang, 09 March 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Reitrix]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 March 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

It's fun for the lols, but too heavy to really be nice.

If I run 4A/C2s and an XL250 (81 kph un-tweaked), in the testing grounds, I had enough ammo to kill 1 light mech, 1 light medium (cicada), and damaged a Cat C1 before running out of ammo. It just isn't remotely practical. Its a high DPS gun that devours ammo. I like how hilarious it is to use, but I'd feel bad using it in combat.

Like I said though, even with a Jam Reduction to UA/C5s, I'm still not using the 2 remaining ballistic hard points.

Even if I used the remaining 2 hard points for MGs, I'm not sure 2 MGs and ammo is worth 2 tons.

After double checking my Enforcer build, 2x UAC/5 with 4 tons ammo, 2x MG with 1 ton ammo and a single backup Medium Laser. This runs on an XL240 with 2 JJs.

Averages 380 damage per match, with a K/D of 3.00... The problem is you.

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 March 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

My ® Enforcer is currently my best ( 1 A/C10, 3 MPLasers at about 90 something kph). It is fun.

Anyway, I understand the fire discipline and I can see where your coming from, but if I'm firing that conservatively, I might as well go 2 A/C5s. 2 std A/C5s for that size mech with 1 energy is a bit underwhelming.

I actually think the Enforcer 5P is a little before it's time because I feel Jam quirks will be a thing, but the mech came out before the quirk.

Except standard AC/5s don't get the Quirk buffs.
I still fire inside the jam window, just not with every single shot, so the jam rate isn't being artificially inflated due to impatience.

My Enforcer is an escort 'Mech, i simply stick by the heavier 'Mechs and add my firepower to theirs while being nimble enough to fend off Lights.

Edited by Reitrix, 09 March 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

As long as PGI ignored their -3 damage to armor penalty, that would be kewl to have...

Doubled armor in MWO = halved damage penalty in MWO vs. TT.

That'd mean even light rifles would deal 1.5 damage on a hit. With an unquirked range of 360m. Mediums would deal 4.5 per hit with 450 range. Heavies would actually outpunch an AC/5, though with less ammo/ton.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

After double checking my Enforcer build, 2x UAC/5 with 4 tons ammo, 2x MG with 1 ton ammo and a single backup Medium Laser. This runs on an XL240 with 2 JJs.

Averages 380 damage per match, with a K/D of 3.00... The problem is you.


Except standard AC/5s don't get the Quirk buffs.
I still fire inside the jam window, just not with every single shot, so the jam rate isn't being artificially inflated due to impatience.

My Enforcer is an escort 'Mech, i simply stick by the heavier 'Mechs and add my firepower to theirs while being nimble enough to fend off Lights.

Very possibly, but I don't feel as though I am solely the only poor player struggling with this mech. Posts like...

ENFORCER 5P - JUST BAD, OR?
http://mwomercs.com/...5p-just-bad-or/

THE PLIGHT OF THE VND-1X VINDICATOR.
http://mwomercs.com/...-1x-vindicator/

Show that I'm not the only one struggling with high ballistic count mechs with low tonnage.

I'm glad it works well for you, but I'm sure the problem is a BIT bigger than just myself.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 09 March 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[Greenjulius]

Right now, the Enforcer 5P is suffering from a lack of options. It's only real choices are 3xAC2s, 2xAC5 plus a decent backup weapon, or 2xUAC5s with a low end backup weapon, or none at all. You could potentially run a 1xAC10, 1xERPPC build, but the firepower potential is really low, and most lights would simply tear it apart.

Or you can just turn it into a crappy Arrow, if you can somehow suffer through how terrible MGs are.

[Reitrix]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 March 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Very possibly, but I don't feel as though I am solely the only poor player struggling with this mech. Posts like...

ENFORCER 5P - JUST BAD, OR?
http://mwomercs.com/...5p-just-bad-or/

THE PLIGHT OF THE VND-1X VINDICATOR.
http://mwomercs.com/...-1x-vindicator/

Show that I'm not the only one struggling with high ballistic count mechs with low tonnage.

I'm glad it works well for you, but I'm sure the problem is a BIT bigger than just myself.

Not every 'Mech works for every player.
Find one that works well for you and roll with it.
I can't pilot Locusts worth a damn, yet there are people who make them look godlike.
I think the Enforcer is just one of those 'Mechs that needs the "right" kind of Pilot.

[5LeafClover]

Ac20, 3mg and a LPL could make an OK brawler. But personally I'm not hung up on using all 4 hard points. The enforcer you mentioned is my favourite. I use 2ac5 and erll. You could see the 4 hard points as an option to still take two cannons and have a shiel arm.

[Reitrix]

5LeafClover, on 09 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

Ac20, 3mg and a LPL could make an OK brawler. But personally I'm not hung up on using all 4 hard points. The enforcer you mentioned is my favourite. I use 2ac5 and erll. You could see the 4 hard points as an option to still take two cannons and have a shiel arm.

O.o
Not only does the Enforcer not have the Crit Slots for an AC20, how the crap did you intend to cram a 14 ton cannon with a 7 ton laser and still have an engine + ammo?