138 replies to this topic

[cSand]

why you so worried about ECM half you nubs can't even find the R button anyways






edit:

I'd also like to congratulate the forumites for managing to cram ECM and LRM whining into one thread

Edited by cSand, 08 March 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Variant1]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I'll like all the good posts in this thread and hope someone at PGI notices, just like with the past 1000 ECM threads in the General forum.

Every time someone makes a suggestion that would actually add layers of complexity to the game, a guy like this comes along to call everyone 'whiners'.

"Wow, you don't like the PPC/AC10 poptart meta? Just buy a CTF-3D yourself, whiner. Why should PGI cater to entitled people who want more than 3 different weapons to be used in this game?"

Except we are not talking about weapons but equipment. fundamental difference here. ECM counter lrms but has counters itself. So why are the ones complaining not using the counters? if they were to they would not be complaining about on the forums or at least suggesting changing how it works or the weapon itself.
edit:

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

edit:
I'd also like to congratulate the forumites for managing to cram ECM and LRM whining into one thread

A meta complaint is still a complaint.

Edited by Variant1, 08 March 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Screech]

Much love for the Doritos.

[HellJumper]

okay i think people took my post in a wrong way..

for clarification.. i use ecm myself.. Atlas and Hellbringer..

we got a number of lights atm, shadow cat coming, artic cheeta coming..and i am sure some other IS ecm mech will come as well..

with soo many ecm capable mechs in game atm and more to come we will have a lot of ecm mounted mechs figthing..

ya sure bap is a counter to it.. but how much will carry them when a lot of players are running ecm mechs??

i am not asking them to be nerfed or buffed.. all i am asking is to start bringing out non ECM mechs.. we want variety..not more mechs with the same capability (ecm that is)

[JediPanther]

Try hitting the "J" key on one of your ecm mechs.

[Deathlike]

Book of Paul said:

And on Sunday, the Magic Jesus Box rested...

[Kjudoon]

Variant1, on 08 March 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

And lrms are any different? This skill is very debatable, sure ECM is passive but it takes some micro management. As for lrms they are a lock on weapon which means you shoot and it aims for you. Its used a lot in pugs because of skill right? oh wait no its not because it takes no skill or teamwork when everyone spots for you, no to mention lrms can shoot over terrain giving them indirect fire capability. You want to know why ecm is broken? because lrms are broken to begin with. ECM has plenty of counters heck even a ppc bolt can disable it for a few seconds.

The bap having almost twice the range of ecm was ridiculous, now its down to 240(i think) which is still more than ecm which is good. I was actually glad they buffed BAP to make it more appealing but not making it ridiculous.

I didn't say lrms shouldn't be able to kill but their purpose is to usually soften up targets, if players don't want to follow that role they don't have to. Also why are we comparing real military to a fictional game? do we have giant walking impractical weapon platforms? No. Oh by the way artillery doesn't always get all the targets especially if they are hunkered down in a fortification/bunker.

While we are on topic of lore, have you read any of the equipment and weapon lore? they sound absolutely unbalanced! The game should not be balanced around lore because that would be stupid thing to do.

Actually there are three main reason I've seen people run LRMs.

1. Low quality equipment/ping/fps
Let's face it, if you do not have optimum equipment, fast mechs and fine motor control, LRMs are your primary weapon. I used to run with an FPS of 5-15 for a long time, and so I got very good and learned a lot on how to be effective with the most unfairly maligned weapon in the game.

2. They're fun to play
Not everyone needs the adrenaline rush to enjoy the game. Playing LRMs can be more sedate, and Lurmishing can be quite a thrill too.

3. Tactical flexibility
The ability to damage targets without seeing them, being seen or pursue over terrain with missiles cannot be underestimated. The psychological impact of "Incoming Missiles" is nothing short of surprising. These things matter in a match.

4. The easiest learning curve and most interesting skill climb.
It's easy to start using, but to truly master them, it's a long way to go. You have to learn maps, range behavior, cover's effects and many other nuances that are just flat out lost on direct fire players. This makes the weapon interesting longer and hard to master, particularly when considered in conjunction with TAG, BAP, ECM and all the modules.

5. Not everyone has the physical ability to play another style.
I just had a discussion with a player who isn't able to snipe or brawl because their medication prevents them from having the fine motor skills to do so effectively.

Nerfing LRMs for the ego of comp epeen measurers does little to help the game and more to harm it because it puts a bar to players not optimized to play due to budget, ability or just plain interest. LRMs change the tactical flow of the game, and make it better overall. Having 1-3 missile boats on a team creates a whole new dynamic that is not strictly dictated by the map because it can go over visual obstacles. It is the best team weapon in the game as well for working together with spotters as well as those in combat is how LRMs work best.

As for why we are comparing real military tactics? Because they are universal in games like this and in real life. A+B=B+A

Tactical realities are as fundamental and unavoidable to this game as realistic physics are. We don't have the greatest physics engine, but tactically, other than the artificial nerfs and sops to whiners demanding a derpy FPS Mech of Doody clone, we have pretty good tactical options that too many seem to think should be nerfed as OP.

[H I A S]

El Bandito, on 08 March 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Too late for that--as long as the mech is within timeline, PGI will make it. Best thing you can hope is that PGI finally take their hands outta their bungholes and give GECM its canon function soon. It is not even suppose to prevent LRM/SSRM locks.

Can't balance LRMs before that.

Cant change ECM-Mechanic, before change LRM-Mechanic.

Use real Weapons and you will hit ECM-Mechs

Edited by HiasRGB, 08 March 2015 - 09:38 AM.

[Trashhead]

MauttyKoray, on 08 March 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

(...)
Its not supposed to create an invisible bubble, that position is meant to be filled by the future Stealth Armor.

Isn't Stealth Armor providing "Invisibility" only for the mech carrying the Stealth Armor ?

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

But how else is PGI going to make an entire weapon system irrelevant, invalidating the purpose of 15 or so mechs and force everyone to brawl at under 270m for the sake of their Solaris jonsing friends and yes men?

I guess by providing more Cover™ in their maps... ?
But I'm not an expert on this, so meh.

[Lyoto Machida]

Give all mechs the ability to carry ECM...the problem of lock on weapons is solved.

[Variant1]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Actually there are three main reason I've seen people run LRMs.
1. Low quality equipment/ping/fps
Let's face it, if you do not have optimum equipment, fast mechs and fine motor control, LRMs are your primary weapon. I used to run with an FPS of 5-15 for a long time, and so I got very good and learned a lot on how to be effective with the most unfairly maligned weapon in the game.

2. They're fun to play
Not everyone needs the adrenaline rush to enjoy the game. Playing LRMs can be more sedate, and Lurmishing can be quite a thrill too.

3. Tactical flexibility
The ability to damage targets without seeing them, being seen or pursue over terrain with missiles cannot be underestimated. The psychological impact of "Incoming Missiles" is nothing short of surprising. These things matter in a match.

4. The easiest learning curve and most interesting skill climb.
It's easy to start using, but to truly master them, it's a long way to go. You have to learn maps, range behavior, cover's effects and many other nuances that are just flat out lost on direct fire players. This makes the weapon interesting longer and hard to master, particularly when considered in conjunction with TAG, BAP, ECM and all the modules.

5. Not everyone has the physical ability to play another style.
I just had a discussion with a player who isn't able to snipe or brawl because their medication prevents them from having the fine motor skills to do so effectively.

Nerfing LRMs for the ego of comp epeen measurers does little to help the game and more to harm it because it puts a bar to players not optimized to play due to budget, ability or just plain interest. LRMs change the tactical flow of the game, and make it better overall. Having 1-3 missile boats on a team creates a whole new dynamic that is not strictly dictated by the map because it can go over visual obstacles. It is the best team weapon in the game as well for working together with spotters as well as those in combat is how LRMs work best.

1. Okay i agree strongly with you on this one since low fps and high ping can be a pain. This is an understandable point.

2. This is more of opinion. Fun is different for everyone. If lrms are fun for you all the power to ya. But in the eyes of someone who dislikes them i can see where its not fun to be the receiving end of them when your screen is blinded and shaking wildly, forcing you to stay in cover almost the whole match. I don't have any problems with lrms i even use my treb and catapult as an on field support.

3.This is questionable. How is it tactically flexible if anyone is your spotter? If anyone can spot doesnt this make lights useless? since their role can easily be replaced by a heavier mech. Why isint lrms reliant on tag/narc to fire indirectly? more importantly why doesn't lrms have a direct fire mode so its not useless in cqc?

4.I wouldn't call it the "easiest" learning curve but more of a crutch weapon, since its used most by low fps high ping players. Medium lasers would most likely be the easiest learning curve weapon since you have infinite ammo and med range is generally good on all maps. I will agree that lrms get more complicated to use effectively when taking all the modules that affect them into account.

5.i dont know what to say about that one cuz that is a sensitive topic.

Lrms havent been touched in a while other than that -0.1 dmg nerf, im not saying they should be nerfed. I think the both lrms and ecm is currently balanced. But if you want my personal opinion i think they are both broken. I was making that ecm lrm skill comparison because those are debatable, my only beef with this topic is that its addressing ecm right now without considering it has counters now.

"As for why we are comparing real military tactics? Because they are universal in games like this and in real life. A+B=B+A
Tactical realities are as fundamental and unavoidable to this game as realistic physics are"
This is were i strongly disagree with you. Military tactics may be similar at best but there different in every way, in real life we don't have battlemechs, we have tanks which are practical and only carry one kind of gun. In mechwarrior we have mechs they carry all kinds of weapons therefore the tactics are going to be radically different since wars are decided by giant walking war machines (mind you that destroy tanks in droves).

"We don't have the greatest physics engine, but tactically, other than the artificial nerfs and sops to whiners demanding a derpy FPS Mech of Doody clone, we have pretty good tactical options that too many seem to think should be nerfed as OP."
I agree half half on this one. Some of those nerfs were necessary some of them were a bit too much. One of the reasons why it might leaning to codish side is most likely associated with custom builds, theres always going to be that guy who going create a meta build its part of many games with customization in mind, case in point the gauss/ppc ac builds heck now large laser boating too!

[STEF_]

red devil2, on 08 March 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

An alrwady useless weapon system at higher elo becomes useless.. Interesting. Do you know why it's useless? because it's inefficient, not because there is the ecm. Only mediocre player use lrm boats whereas you can run laser / ballistic builds! The latter only if you are IS, btw.

LRM are useless because we have covers, not because there's the ECM. at lower elo players don't understand yet how to deal with LRMs but, as they improve they usually learn and see LRM boats as easy kills.

Do you understand that I can stay in cover, leave it, fire a gauss and fall back while you are still trying to lock me?

really, if you think that ecm is a problem you have to skill yourself up and learn how to use TAG, UAV and BAP.

The Ecm is a good tool because it hides your payload and movements, not because slows down dumb players that can't even use a TAG.

mmmm, I wrote that lrms are useless, and I'm agree about what you wrote, those are the reason why I didn't use them.
With ecm-landia, it's even more useless, because now lurmeers cannot even lock anymore..... at least before they had the illusion to do something.

edit: BUT I would like to use lrm, even at comp level.
Jesus box only for who load it, and instead of 160 m/s, at least 4-600m/s. Do you think?

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 08 March 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Variant1]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 March 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

With ecm-landia, it's even more useless, because now lurmeers cannot even lock anymore..... at least before they had the illusion to do something.

ECMers: OUR ECM SHALL BLOCK OUT THE SUN!

spotters: then we shall BAP in the shade

As increase usage of ecm will also increase usage of BAP, or if that doesn't happen ill make a post satirizing "equip an ams" posts with an "adopt a BAP defeat ecm" post

Edited by Variant1, 08 March 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Of course, AMS forces the need to boat for true effectivness since it shoots through terrain and targets missiles not aimed at you.

[PitchBlackYeti]

HellJumper, on 08 March 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

The game is turning into Ecm counter/ disrupt mechs.

we have enough atm in the game..after wave three lets not have more ecm mechs..

More ECM mechs means more chance that both sides get some ECM cover. To be honest until the ECM is redesigned to be less game-winning I prefer that both sides have enough ECM than when one side ends up with none.

[C E Dwyer]

Hmm I was thinking we need a few more IS mechs with ECM to balance things but never mind

[Variant1]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Of course, AMS forces the need to boat for true effectiveness since it shoots through terrain and targets missiles not aimed at you.

which is both a blessing and a curse, sometimes my ams would shoot at missiles not hitting anyone wasting precious ammo, tho i have learned to only activate ams at important times, problem with that is there is a bug thats stops it from shooting sometimes once you activate it.

Edited by Variant1, 08 March 2015 - 11:18 AM.

[DasSibby]

To fix ECM, they have to fix LRMs at the same time. Otherwise we're going to get a LRM-megeddon 2.0

[Kalo Shin]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I'll like all the good posts in this thread and hope someone at PGI notices, just like with the past 1000 ECM threads in the General forum.

Where's my Player council at, yo?


Every time someone makes a suggestion that would actually add layers of complexity to the game, a guy like this comes along to call everyone 'whiners'.

"Wow, you don't like the PPC/AC10 poptart meta? Just buy a CTF-3D yourself, whiner. Why should PGI cater to entitled people who want more than 3 different weapons to be used in this game?"

The difference here is the most popular/effective mechs aren't even ECM mechs. Firestarters, Stormcrows, Timberwolfs, Dires, Banshees and Stalkers don't have ECM. Your argument doesn't apply really, as there's more than just ECM mechs being used, and super effectively at that.

Edited by Kalo Shin, 08 March 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[FupDup]

Kalo Shin, on 08 March 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

The difference here is the most popular/effective mechs aren't even ECM mechs. Firestarters, Stormcrows, Timberwolfs, Dires, Banshees and Stalkers don't have ECM. Your argument doesn't apply really, as there's more than just ECM mechs being used, and super effectively at that.

If you gave each of those mechs ECM access, they'd become even more popular and more effective than they already are.