138 replies to this topic

[Sorbic]

Kalo Shin, on 08 March 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

Why aren't whiners like you packing Beagle Active Probe? Or TAG?

Who said he wasn't? I pack BAP and Tag. BAP has a short range (bad place for boats) and counters ONE mechs ECM. Plus if there is more than one ECM then TAG takes even longer to cut through for a lock. This is face time mechs like the Catapult can't afford. They help and as long as there isn't a lot of enemy ECM are pretty effective. However with the Hellbringer and Mystlinx being both relatively new and fresh additions to the trial lineup, there are some games with excessive ECM coverage.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 08 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

Now, I'm no BT expert, so I am curious...what are you basing this on?

In TT it effects every mech in a 6 hex radius (180m) and missiles passing through it. So if a mech with Artemis LRMs fires at an ECM equipped mech, there are no Artemis bonuses. If it fires at a mech inside an ECM bubble it loses Artemis bonuses. If it fires at a mech and the missiles pass through an ECM bubble, it loses Artemis bonuses. ECM also cancels NARC bonuses. ECM also cancels TAG bonuses. ECM also cancels BAP/CAP bonuses. I also think it cancels C3 bonuses (someone correct otherwise).

ECM. Electronic COUNTERmeasures is the counter to all the equipment that adds bonuses. It is not a Magic Jesus Box that hides you. It shouldn't prevent you from getting missile locks or loadout data. It should counter TAG, NARC, BAP/CAP, Artemis, and C3 (meaning your buddy can't hit R and have you rain LRMs onto him from the other side of a hill).

PGI has ECM backwards from FASA.

[Kjudoon]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 08 March 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

In TT it effects every mech in a 6 hex radius (180m) and missiles passing through it. So if a mech with Artemis LRMs fires at an ECM equipped mech, there are no Artemis bonuses. If it fires at a mech inside an ECM bubble it loses Artemis bonuses. If it fires at a mech and the missiles pass through an ECM bubble, it loses Artemis bonuses. ECM also cancels NARC bonuses. ECM also cancels TAG bonuses. ECM also cancels BAP/CAP bonuses. I also think it cancels C3 bonuses (someone correct otherwise).

ECM. Electronic COUNTERmeasures is the counter to all the equipment that adds bonuses. It is not a Magic Jesus Box that hides you. It shouldn't prevent you from getting missile locks or loadout data. It should counter TAG, NARC, BAP/CAP, Artemis, and C3 (meaning your buddy can't hit R and have you rain LRMs onto him from the other side of a hill).

PGI has ECM backwards from FASA.

I would accept this change. I get LOS, you got incoming missiles just as fast as I can lock unaided and no more stealth? Sure thing!

[GeneralArmchair]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

I would accept this change. I get LOS, you got incoming missiles just as fast as I can lock unaided and no more stealth? Sure thing!

FYI, in tabletop, fancy equipment isn't necessary for indirect fire. The fancy equipment just improves to-hit chances. Even a lowly infantryman group can spot for LRMs without the assistance of any fancy equipment.

The spotter and boat being part of a C3 network would improve the accuracy greatly, but a C3 network is by no means a prerequisite.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 08 March 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 08 March 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

In TT it effects every mech in a 6 hex radius (180m) and missiles passing through it. So if a mech with Artemis LRMs fires at an ECM equipped mech, there are no Artemis bonuses. If it fires at a mech inside an ECM bubble it loses Artemis bonuses. If it fires at a mech and the missiles pass through an ECM bubble, it loses Artemis bonuses. ECM also cancels NARC bonuses. ECM also cancels TAG bonuses. ECM also cancels BAP/CAP bonuses. I also think it cancels C3 bonuses (someone correct otherwise).

ECM. Electronic COUNTERmeasures is the counter to all the equipment that adds bonuses. It is not a Magic Jesus Box that hides you. It shouldn't prevent you from getting missile locks or loadout data. It should counter TAG, NARC, BAP/CAP, Artemis, and C3 (meaning your buddy can't hit R and have you rain LRMs onto him from the other side of a hill).

PGI has ECM backwards from FASA.

Actually ECM in BT TT rules are not disrupting TAG as TAG is not electronic.
Though, TAG is working only with ARROW IV homming ammo and special LRM homming ammo.
In MWO mechanics any LRM is actually homming.

[GeneralArmchair]

Yeah, TAG operates on a different system. Overall, the point of tabletop ECM is to negate the advantages granted by advanced equipment. ECM doesn't do anything about basic functionality. That makes sense. An ECM suite isn't going to do anything against a Katyusha pointed at a location on a map that was designated by some spotter. However it will probably mess with the precision radar based targeting system of more advanced missiles.

MWO operates in some bizzaro world where ECM strips away base functionality and you need advanced equipment to pierce ECM (even after you pierce it, performance is still worse than base functionality).

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 08 March 2015 - 08:14 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

GeneralArmchair, on 08 March 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

MWO operates in some bizzaro world where ECM strips away base functionality and you need advanced equipment to pierce ECM (even after you pierce it, performance is still worse than base functionality).

bingo

[Alistair Winter]

Kalo Shin, on 08 March 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

The difference here is the most popular/effective mechs aren't even ECM mechs. Firestarters, Stormcrows, Timberwolfs, Dires, Banshees and Stalkers don't have ECM. Your argument doesn't apply really, as there's more than just ECM mechs being used, and super effectively at that.

And why are those mechs the most popular / effective mechs? Is it because they are great at boating lasers and ballistics, or because they are great LRM carriers? Why are they super effective? Because ECM does a pretty great job at countering LRMs, so nobody brings LRMs anymore. You just need lasers and ballistics. Equally effective from 0 meters to max range, no target lock required. Easy to use. Instead of 4 weapon groups for lasers, ballistics, LRMs and TAG, you just need one big red button to fire your lasers.

TL;DR: Your example proves my point.

Hence the analogy about PPC poptart meta, which made a relatively straight-forward FPS even less complex than it was before. PPC poptart meta was another symptom of LRMs being craptacular, among other things.

Variant1, on 08 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Except we are not talking about weapons but equipment. fundamental difference here. ECM counter lrms but has counters itself. So why are the ones complaining not using the counters? if they were to they would not be complaining about on the forums or at least suggesting changing how it works or the weapon itself.
edit:

Why are counters not being used? Because a simple cost-benefit analysis shows that ECM is vastly superior to any alternatives and counters.
At 1.5 tons, ECM is infinitely better protection than AMS.
At 1 ton, TAG requires constant reticule on target, no torso twisting, and it takes a lot of time before you can actually get a target lock against an ECM mech.
At 1.5 tons, BAP is the same weight as ECM, yet only counters it at very close range, while offering relatively modest bonuses otherwise.
At 3+ tons, NARC is a lot heavier than ECM, ammo-based and requires hitting your target with the slowest missiles in creation.
At 6 or 7 tons, the PPC is an option limited to a few specific builds and only counters ECM for 5 seconds if you're able to hit your target.

Meanwhile, ECM is a magic jesus box that you just plug in and it works automatically untill countered. You don't have to aim it, you don't have to activate it, you don't have to think about it at all.

It's a very simple thought experiment to figure out if a certain piece of equipment is OP. For example:
If a mech can carry 1 or 2 AMS, do players always equip AMS on that mech? No.
If a mech can carry BAP, do players always equip BAP on that mech? No.
If a mech can carry jump jets, do players always equip jump jets on that mech? No.*
If a mech can carry CASE.... No.
If a mech can carry command console... No.
If a mech can carry targeting computer... No.
If a mech can carry TAG... No.
If a mech can carry NARC... No.
If a mech can carry ECM, do players always equip ECM on that mech? Yes!

Even if it means sacrificing extra hardpoints to get the ECM omnipod, players will almost always equip ECM if they can. It's a no brainer. If equipping a weapon or piece of equipment is a no-brainer, then it's probably not balanced properly.

If you still disagree with me, that's cool. I have nothing more to say at this point.


* You may say jump jets on light mechs is a no-brainer too, and I'd be inclined to agree. A single jump jet is ridiculously useful for 0.5 tons, which is part of the reason why the JR7-D is infinitely more popular than the RVN-2X.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 08 March 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[GeneralArmchair]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

Why are counters not being used? Because a simple cost-benefit analysis shows that ECM is vastly superior to any alternatives and counters.
At 1.5 tons, ECM is infinitely better protection than AMS.
At 1 ton, TAG requires constant reticule on target, no torso twisting, and it takes a lot of time before you can actually get a target lock against an ECM mech.
At 1.5 tons, BAP is the same weight as ECM, yet only counters it at very close range, while offering relatively modest bonuses otherwise.
At 3+ tons, NARC is a lot heavier than ECM, ammo-based and requires hitting your target with the slowest missiles in creation.
At 6 or 7 tons, the PPC is an option limited to a few specific builds and only counters ECM for 5 seconds if you're able to hit your target.

Meanwhile, ECM is a magic jesus box that you just plug in and it works automatically untill countered. You don't have to aim it, you don't have to activate it, you don't have to think about it at all.

It's a very simple thought experiment to figure out if a certain piece of equipment is OP. For example:
If a mech can carry 1 or 2 AMS, do players always equip AMS on that mech? No.
If a mech can carry BAP, do players always equip BAP on that mech? No.
If a mech can carry jump jets, do players always equip jump jets on that mech? No.*
If a mech can carry CASE.... No.
If a mech can carry command console... No.
If a mech can carry targeting computer... No.
If a mech can carry TAG... No.
If a mech can carry NARC... No.
If a mech can carry ECM, do players always equip ECM on that mech? Yes!

Even if it means sacrificing extra hardpoints to get the ECM omnipod, players will almost always equip ECM if they can. It's a no brainer. If equipping a weapon or piece of equipment is a no-brainer, then it's probably not balanced properly.

This. So much this. The only equipment that even comes close to the level of being soooo powerful that they're auto-included are double-heatsinks. Those are only balanced because everyone is capable of equipping double-heatsinks on every mech regardless of whether that variant had DHS in universe.

The only balance issue with DHS is that many trial mechs are knocked another peg down compared to optimized mechs because they have to suffer through inferior heat management capabilities due to their SHS. Between that and ineffecient weapon loadouts, it can make the new player experience pretty miserable. But that's an issue for another thread.

[RedDevil]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

If a mech can carry ECM, do players always equip ECM on that mech? Yes!

Or, ECM is always taken on ECM mechs because why would you choose them if you didn't want ECM?

That's like saying rocks are OP, because slingshots always take rocks.

[GeneralArmchair]

reddevil, on 08 March 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Or, ECM is always taken on ECM mechs because why would you choose them if you didn't want ECM?

That's like saying rocks are OP, because slingshots always take rocks.

So you're acknowledging that ECM is so influential that people choose to utilize less potent mechs for the express purpose of gaining access to ECM?

[Artgathan]

GeneralArmchair, on 08 March 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

So you're acknowledging that ECM is so influential that people choose to utilize less potent mechs for the express purpose of gaining access to ECM?

No - the original argument was that if a variant has access to ECM, ECM is always equipped. The counterargument was that the reason ECM is always equipped could be that the variant was chosen because it could equip ECM. This is a valid counterargument. The example he gives is a good explanation - if you want to shoot rocks at something, you bring a slingshot (a weapon variant). You don't bring a rifle because it can't shoot rocks, not because a slingshot is necessarily a better weapon than a rifle.

[KraftySOT]

GeneralArmchair, on 08 March 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

FYI, in tabletop, fancy equipment isn't necessary for indirect fire. The fancy equipment just improves to-hit chances. Even a lowly infantryman group can spot for LRMs without the assistance of any fancy equipment.

The spotter and boat being part of a C3 network would improve the accuracy greatly, but a C3 network is by no means a prerequisite.

But the spotter cant shoot and spot.

Hence why we have the mechanic we have.

[Alistair Winter]

reddevil, on 08 March 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Or, ECM is always taken on ECM mechs because why would you choose them if you didn't want ECM?
That's like saying rocks are OP, because slingshots always take rocks.

No, that's a terrible analogy. It would only be true if people always took 4 missile weapons on a mech with 4 missile hardpoints, or if people always equipped 8 jump jets on a mech with maximum 8 jump jets, or if people always equipped 2 AMS on a mech with 2 AMS slots.

Notice, for example, that there are many Clan mechs that can equip 2 AMS. Ice Ferret, Nova, Summoner, Kit Fox, Mist Lynx. Do people automatically equip the AMS-omnipods, the same way people automatically equip the ECM-omnipods? No. Because AMS is not a no-brainer, but the ECM is.

Why would you pick a Nova if you didn't want 2 AMS? Because AMS is not a big deal. It has its advantages and disadvantages, like every other piece of equipment.
Why would you pick a Hellbringer if you didn't want ECM? No idea, I've never seen a Hellbringer without ECM.

[GeneralArmchair]

KraftySOT, on 08 March 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

But the spotter cant shoot and spot.

Hence why we have the mechanic we have.

Not true. The spotter can shoot. He just gets a to-hit penalty for his attacks and the indirect fire unit gets an additional to-hit penalty.

edit:
Generally it is too inefficient to stack that many to-hit penalties. So in most cases the spotter is an extremely low BV unit that wouldn't be shooting like an infantry squad on a mountain or an unarmed/lightly armed VTOL zipping around at high speed. But if you have weapons, you are welcome to both use them and spot if you are willing to accept the to-hit penalty.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 08 March 2015 - 09:19 PM.

[White Bear 84]

keith, on 08 March 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

or make ecm like it supposed to be and only effect 1 mech?

But, but, I want to run with my sweet as, Jesus Boombox!!

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

No idea, I've never seen a Hellbringer without ECM.

I have, but those mechs are taken care of easily. I've seen plenty of ECM capable mechs not take ECM.

They often die.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

Notice, for example, that there are many Clan mechs that can equip 2 AMS. Ice Ferret, Nova, Summoner, Kit Fox, Mist Lynx. Do people automatically equip the AMS-omnipods, the same way people automatically equip the ECM-omnipods? No. Because AMS is not a no-brainer, but the ECM is.

One reason I don't take AMS or double AMS on those mechs is because sometimes because they force me into an omni-pod I didn't want.

You'll notice not all the omni-pods in that location have AMS as an option.


The other reason is that AMS doesn't function well enough on it's own, and I can't even count on PUG team mates to stick together - much less have all 11 of them also bring AMS so we can create an umbrella of protection in case we actually fight LRMs.


Which brings me to a related point. If there are no LRMs - AMS is completely dead weight.

ECM still provides a function (stealth/hide paper doll) - so it has broader functionality.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 March 2015 - 10:00 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 08 March 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

Actually ECM in BT TT rules are not disrupting TAG as TAG is not electronic.
Though, TAG is working only with ARROW IV homming ammo and special LRM homming ammo.
In MWO mechanics any LRM is actually homming.

Even SAHR or LOSBR munitions can be screwed with by a comprehensive ECM suite that includes an IRCM module.

FYI - The description of LRM's and Artemis means they fit the profile of SAHR and LOSBR guidance systems, respectively.

[Otto Cannon]

Alistair already said basically what I was going to about why 'hurr durr use tag and bap' displays a lack of knowledge about basic game mechanics, so I'll just leave this picture here instead.