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So What's The Deal With Mwo And Mw:ll


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#241 ThisMachineKillsFascists

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:17 AM

View Postdimachaerus, on 10 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:



You gotta admit though, that if it WERE possible. Hot diggity DAMN would that be awesome.

Stomping through Cherno in your Raven, scouting the advance into the city center for your heavier teammates, getting lit up by a squad of infantry in the hotel, backing off and calling in some ASF's to do a bombing run, detect some Galleon tanks in your rear and start a running gun battle street by street as they try to box you in, but you have to be fast because your lance is only three minutes out and they need the recon data you can provide to successfully capture the port for your incoming naval assets carrying troops and munitions for the push further inland.

Man, I think I just made a mess in my pants thinking about it.

you should try wargame red dragon.. it might be your game. best and most complex rts


Oh dat game has no tutorial but 500 page manual.. Still ppl love it and try hard to get into

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 10 March 2015 - 10:19 AM.


#242 Metus regem

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:18 AM

View PostKraftySOT, on 10 March 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Posted Image

Now imagine that theres two light lances and 4 hover tanks in there. And youre on the hill in your Stalker, with your other three assaults, and two Demolisher heavy tanks.

Theres a Yellow Jacket VTOL just off station with a Gauss and Tag laser.

Little infantry guys go streaming past you to enter the town and use infernos and narcs on anything they find.


To that, I call in an Areospace support, or Arrow IV / Long Tom bombardment, turning it into:


Posted Image

#243 KraftySOT

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:21 AM

Sadly you can wish in one hand, and **** in the other...

We have what we have, and it wont be getting any better. Crytek has moved on and while youll get some engine fixes here and there, we wont be getting new functionality any time soon. We wont be switching engines. We surely wont be getting any sweet cool new game devices.

Theyre not even set up to create that stuff at the moment.

We'll get more mechs. More mechs. More mechs. Some maps. Balance "fixes". A few variations on player count in a match. More mechs. More mechs. More mechs. Some maps. Some new stat tracking. More mechs. More fixes. Some reward adjustments and quirks. More mechs. Now its 2016.

View PostThisMachineKillsFascists, on 10 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

you should try wargame red dragon.. it might be your game. best and most complex rts



Its good, its just not first person. I personally hate the game because its weird, and unrealistic, and id rather just stick with Steel Panthers MBT. I cant get behind the horrible terrain resolution. Its like theres no ditches or berms in east asia. Let alone stream beds or glens. Its...ugh. Ill stick to my wargames. But I totally see why people like it. Great graphics, great control, good balance, alot of fun in MP. Its just not my bag.

Arma is a completely different sort of thing, especially multiplayer games with 30 coordinated guys on each side.

Edited by KraftySOT, 10 March 2015 - 10:21 AM.


#244 Kh0rn

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:22 AM

The whole overall feel In MWLL was amazing even the graphics attention too detail head bob they had it all. One of the biggest things which I felt lent too its balance was the lack of Mechlab instead each mech came with about 8 variants for different operations which while the mechlab is great and all it is the source of balance issues as people can always just remove old and put on new instead of picking a mech that has its good sides and bad and learn too play with it. This is why I hope for like a classic mode in MWO where mechs are hard locked what you get is what you get and what you must learn too use. If any thing the MWO team can take a look at there jump jet system which will solve the whole flying around bunny hopping crap.


Edited by Kh0rn, 10 March 2015 - 10:24 AM.


#245 ThisMachineKillsFascists

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:25 AM

because games are games they can never reflect completely the reality. But i d say that rts is one of the most realistic one actually. Millitary staff love that game

#246 KraftySOT

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:34 AM

View PostThisMachineKillsFascists, on 10 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

because games are games they can never reflect completely the reality. But i d say that rts is one of the most realistic one actually. Millitary staff love that game


http://www.battlefront.com/

http://www.shrapnelg...T/MBT_page.html

http://www.matrixgam...War.in.the.West

Just to name a few.

Heres basically the exact same game as wargame red dragon, but more realistic, with worse graphics. Everything is a trade off. You get more graphics, you lose realism. Its a sad fact of the game development cycle. No one takes 3 years to make a game any more but Rockstar.

http://www.matrixgam...yer%27s.Edition

#247 ThisMachineKillsFascists

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 10:40 AM

View PostKraftySOT, on 10 March 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

http://www.battlefront.com/

http://www.shrapnelg...T/MBT_page.html

http://www.matrixgam...War.in.the.West

Just to name a few.

Heres basically the exact same game as wargame red dragon, but more realistic, with worse graphics. Everything is a trade off. You get more graphics, you lose realism. Its a sad fact of the game development cycle. No one takes 3 years to make a game any more but Rockstar.

http://www.matrixgam...yer%27s.Edition

I ll check that out.. eugen goes Arcady with its new game act of agression and no one is happy with it. Its nice to have a wargame substitution

Edit: Jeeez those games are decade old o.O

Those games have been created during the rts hype with c&c and all those titles.
Battlefront seems to be very interresting actually. Does it have a mp?

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 10 March 2015 - 11:04 AM.


#248 KraftySOT

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:06 AM

Well War in the West just came out, as did Flashpoint. MBT is about 10 years old, and some of the Combat Mission games are.

Black Sea is their newest which is covering the on going conflict in the Crimea right now. But these games track supply, individual soldiers, have realistic penetration values for weapons, morale, training, experience, familiarity with weapons systems, the ranges are correct, the rates of fire.

Combat Mission is about the most realistic youre going to get thats still a strategy game.

At the operational level, nothing comes close to Gary Grigsby titles, or the now 17 year old The Operational Art of War 3.

Then you have AGEOD titles that cover conflicts like the 7 Years War, or the American Civil War, which are a step above and beyond with realism. You just have to suffer the graphics and horrible GUIs.

Posted Image


For example heres a break down of the distribution of runners in this group. Runners are your guys getting supply, moving wounded, moving orders when radio contact is lost, etc.

Thats quite a bit further down the realism scale than Wargame Red Dragon.

Then theres...Warplan Orange and War in the Pacific.

You can basically choose the ply of toilet paper thats on your ships. Its that detailed.

#249 KraftySOT

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:10 AM

Another good example is theres no real detriment to your forces in Wargame for being out of contact with your command structure. Hills block radio, bad weather, enemy forces can jam them, the radio can break down, run out of juice, get destroyed. A unit with no link to its command structure generally in more realistic games suffer some kind of penalty. A unit out of command, cant move, cant be supplied, no one knows where it is anymore, more forces have to be sent to find it, and rescue it if possible.

Theres a plethora of things other games that are far more detailed (but far less graphically cool) do that Wargame just doesnt. And I got used to all those things in the war games ive played for the past 30 years. Its hard to take a step back.

Once youve coordinated an armored breakthrough over the course of days of fighting, and watched the ensuing encirclement and destruction of the enemy forces, and the breakdown of their command and control. Nothing else really satisfies you.

Im still waiting for ToaW4 if it ever comes out. That will be fantastic.

#250 ThisMachineKillsFascists

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:11 AM

LOks def interresting.. need to have a deeper look into those games

#251 Creovex

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:14 AM

View PostEvilCow, on 10 March 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

MWLL had its problems but it was more fun of MWO, more diversity and overall balance.

Too bad we will never see what it could have become given few more years.


My favorite thought of all time... guess what... sometimes that game goes from being awesome to TOTAL ****!

Star Wars Galaxies
Released - June 2003
Gameplay Destroyed - November 2005 -New Game Enhancements (NGE)
Yeah... went from badass 2 years (+ beta time) to WTF happened????? FYI - Coolest thing ever were the ingame protests in cities so filled with users it crashed the servers.

Edited by Creovex, 10 March 2015 - 11:16 AM.


#252 KraftySOT

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:16 AM

View PostThisMachineKillsFascists, on 10 March 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

LOks def interresting.. need to have a deeper look into those games



its a rabbit hole for sure. A year from now youll find yourself up at 3am, beer in hand trying to figure out how to get your forces out of Singapore with nothing but civilian shipping and the light carrier Arc Royal, dodging Japanese destroyer screens and throwing your mouse at the wall because you armed your Fairey Battles with bombs and not torpedos.

#253 KraftySOT

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:20 AM

Heres a snippet from one of my AARs (after action reports) from WiTP (War in the Pacific)

The Banda Sea has more overnight action. This time a surface action task force made up of CL Naka and DDs Suzukaze, Shinonome, Tachikaze and Fuyo under the command of Cpt Tahara, Y. on board Naka, sweep the sea around Kai Island. APD Dent, which had been roughed up the night before is located and dispatched by 2 torpedo hits along with reports of 25 casualties and 1. Tahara forges on and locates APDs Colhoun, Kane, Overton and Dickerson. Kane is hit by 6 shells and Dickerson is reported to have been hit by 3 shells. Overton is hit by 4 shells and 3 torpedoes and sinks. 52 casualties and 3 vehicles are reported lost in this action. In their turn Naka is hit by 2 shells, Fuyo by 1 shell. Suzakaze is hit by 1 rather effective shell which causes a 6 fire and system damage of 9. Undeterred Tahara remains and locates APDs Waters, Little and McKean. Little suffers 2 shell hits whilst McKean (hit by 2 shells the night before) is hit by 7 shells and 1 torpedo and sinks. 42 casualties and 2 vehicles are reported lost. Naka takes 2 shell hits and Fuyo 1 hit. Well satisfied with the nights work and down on torpedoes Tahara sets course for Kendari and hightails it from the scene of the action. After this action Naka has system damage of 3 and Fuyo 4. Not a bad return for minimal damage although Suzakaze is off to the repair yard. So far not a bad showing from some of the older ships of the IJN. A few days later and with her fires well doused Suzakaze is at Kendari and having her 15 sys dam well fussed over.

In a postscript to the night action the next day 38 D4Y Judy and 6B5N Kate based at Amboina locate APDs Little and Waters. Little was reported to have been hit by 5 bombs. 2 Judy and 1 Kate were lost to 6 P-38J Lightning which were based on Kai Island. After rearming at Amboina the bombers set off again (this time 32 Judy and 5 Kate), again locate the two ships and put 1 further bomb into Little. The CAP of 6 Lightning was again on hand and accounted for 3 more Judy. Little turned up on the sunk ships list so she must have succumbed. Costly in terms of planes lost for 1 APD that was already well beat up.

This little adventure is sure to be a bother for Todd. His comment about Hosogaya’s raid from the night before was Sneaky IJN DDs lurking around my new base at night. I'm going to have to turn on the lights and sleep with an eye opened. Seems the lights may have to be turned up a little brighter and less sleep by the guards. I doubt he will let this go on and I know he has carriers around plus battlewagons in the area. I suspect it is the RN as a BB plus at BC came up from recon a few turns ago so I suspect Todd has found a job for Prince of Wales and Repulse along with his armoured carriers.

South of Rabaul a convoy returning from a supply run to Gili Gili is located by SS Wahoo. AP Nitiran Maru is hit by 2 torpedoes causing fatal damage of 96 94 24 and she is scuttled. There are 6 destroyers in the escort and for a nice change they report a good number of hits (8). This is the most hit I have seen against an allied sub in months and I can’t even guess at the last time an Allied sub was sunk. This was a particularly gratifying result as Wahoo has cropped up on a regular basis giving grief to my shipping.

Now for the disappointing result for the day. About one week ago US forces stormed ashore and captured Eniwetok. The USN has been busy unloading all sorts and I wanted to see if I could sneak in a carrier attack as it appeared that the carrier escort was a bit thin on the ground. Well things almost worked out well and would have gone to plan if I had not of set my planes to fly their full distance of 5 hexes. If I had of gone for 3 they would have had a chance to hit the transports at the island but as it turned out they found the US carriers at range 5 and of course had to give it a go with the expected carnage.

In the first raid 8 Zekes and 16 Zeros escorted 19 Judy, 6 Kate and 18 Jill against 110 Hellcats. All the Zekes and Zeros, Kates and Jills were shot down. 4 Judy bombers made it back to the decks of their carriers. A mere 4 Hellcats were reported shot down. Undeterred by this debacle 8 Zekes set out to escort 9 Jill against the American fleet. It was no surprise to see every plane shot down by the CAP of 96 Hellcats. Still thinking there must be a change of achieving some result 8 Judy and 6 Jill set out with an escort of 8 Zeke and 9 Zero in the afternoon. They found the Americans with a CAP up of 66 Hellcat. A solitary Judy made it back and a lone Hellcat was reported as downed.

All in all quite a disaster and one I put down to my rather poor understanding of how far a task force will travel at any speed. In this case I had the carriers on full speed and the task force actually ended up closer to the island than I expected it too. Hopefully the silver lining will be that Todd will think that this attack came from the remnants of KB as he has been in the dark on where my carriers have been for some time now. The reconstituted KB is in fact haring down to the Banda Sea to see if they can become the decisive element in that battle. The ships I used in this encounter were Shoho, Zuiho, Ryuho and Ryujo. They have made an about face and are tearing away from Eniwetok and hoping the US carriers aren’t interested in a long chase. The only other good news out of this is the bail out and rescue of ENS Kawamura L. Of EIII-1 Daitai and CPO Fujimatsu J. of CII-1 Datiai. Other than that Todd is having a great time celebrating many new Allied aces.

Edited by KraftySOT, 10 March 2015 - 11:21 AM.


#254 Davers

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:08 PM

View PostCreovex, on 10 March 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:


My favorite thought of all time... guess what... sometimes that game goes from being awesome to TOTAL ****!

Star Wars Galaxies
Released - June 2003
Gameplay Destroyed - November 2005 -New Game Enhancements (NGE)
Yeah... went from badass 2 years (+ beta time) to WTF happened????? FYI - Coolest thing ever were the ingame protests in cities so filled with users it crashed the servers.

What a total disappointment. I actually had the Collector's Edition. I don't think I continued after the free months it came with.

#255 DivideByZer0

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:27 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 09 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

mwll had superior environments, not just maps. their texture artists knew how color works. the maps were bigger and somehow felt alive. day/night cycles with temperature swings. volcanic erruptions and freezing water. little heat distortion effects. fog that didnt look like it was rendered with a voodoo 3.

mwo has superior mechs, something i didnt realize till i went back and watched some of the mwll gameplay vids. those damage effects. in fact it made me realize that mwo has some really good modeling. though you put a bad texture on a good model and you dont notice it is good, but you put a good texture on a bad model and it looks better. you do both and its a recipe for awesome.

i also liked mwll's approach to sensors, targeting, and electronic warfare. one targeting control, r? i had 2 hat switches dedicated to targeting and sensors on my pro throttle in mwll. in mwll you had to set up a c3 network and use teamwork just to get missiles to the target without line of sight, in mwo you can just hide behind a rock and lob at will. it felt like the game was intentionally dumbed down for attention deficit tweens and then called a thinking mans shooter as a lame attempt at propaganda.

i dont want mwo to be exactly like mwll, but i do want it to be better than it is now. not slightly better, not with a couple new maps and another thousand in mech packs. if pgi could simply learn from the things that worked well in mwll and make a better game things would be good. i see people nitpick about the small stuff, the heat scale or the way jumpjets work, or mech balance and quirks, but that stuff really doesn't matter. if they could just do better on the maps front that would be enough, i could let the dumbed down electronics warfare and lack of combined arms slide. if it doesnt get better i will grow board, move on, and wont blow any more money on stuff. if it does, well who knows what more i might spend.


I remember before all this happened, we were talking about how, MWO was more of an arcade game, as opposed to the MWLL goal of being a simulator. It looks flashy, but that's because it's meant to. MWO uses the crytek environment like a child. Concerned about bright colors and extreme landscapes and bright lights, with little concern for actual playability or maximization of the engine.

#256 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:28 PM

View PostDivideByZer0, on 10 March 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

with little concern for actual playability or maximization of the engine.


The engine is already maximized by the use of server-side everything and the need to refactor the crummy CryTek netcode. From what I understand, that's a big part of why they're not pushing into more.

#257 DivideByZer0

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:43 PM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 10 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:


The engine is already maximized by the use of server-side everything and the need to refactor the crummy CryTek netcode. From what I understand, that's a big part of why they're not pushing into more.


I probably phrased that wrong, I understand the netcode situation. I was more referring to the general map design and implementation of game models/textures as they pertain to game performance.

#258 Kristov Kerensky

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:49 PM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 10 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:


The engine is already maximized by the use of server-side everything and the need to refactor the crummy CryTek netcode. From what I understand, that's a big part of why they're not pushing into more.


Actually, it's clientside architecture that's the problem, which is being refactored to be serverside. It's a pain, and from what I can glean from the statements Mas over at RSI has put out, it's an issue they are dealing with as well, but it seems their version of CryTek might be build differently, it's more serverside auth than the version PGI is using, but it's still giving them fits because the thing just don't work for large numbers of players.

As far as the maps and textures, yeah, PGI has some work to do there, but any time they've tried something different, like Alpine, they get told how horrible they are, so they are a bit gunshy. Of course Alpine wasn't done very well, so...

I've suggested time and time again, go grab some of the old FASA packs, use those maps from the missions...

#259 DivideByZer0

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 01:03 PM

View PostKristov Kerensky, on 10 March 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:


I've suggested time and time again, go grab some of the old FASA packs, use those maps from the missions...


I totally agree. I feel like many of the maps start with a genuinely good idea, then it gets cluttered up. Take alpine peaks. It should be alpine peak (singular). The central feature in the map should be one big peak, then teams wouldn't be able to play "king of the hill" quite the same. Like MWLL's "clear cut" Back to basics, right?

#260 Vandul

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 01:24 PM

Still talking about this? This is sooooo 2012.





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