270 replies to this topic

[Jetfire]

MW LL was an interesting mod but it was far from competing with MWO. Ultimately though the IP was not so robust they could risk competition. You are talking about a very small market and MS if no one else would certainly protect its rights and has a responsibility to its shareholders to do so. Halo brings in infinite money and going after modders would basically secure zero extra income. MWO and MW LL however were both entries in a very small market which put the value of an IP at risk.

What happened? It hardly matters because the result is the same. MWO is slowly growing, MW LL is static. This was the likely outcome no matter what happened. Corp types take due diligence pretty seriously though, lawyers need to earn their keep.

[KraftySOT]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Umm, HG hasn't done anything regarding MWO, ever. They DID raise their head and threaten lawsuits when PGI's video for their console MW game was released to the public and used a Warhammer in it, but that was back in 2009, so I'm failing to see how that would have any influence on anything. Or do you mean that HG was threatening MW:LL due to the use of Unseen? Unless that is what you mean, I'm at a loss here as to why you'd bring up HG and MWO, as that's a literal non-issue.

Day of Defeat..you mean the mod that Valve bought in 2003 and Activision published that year? Or do you mean the DoD:Source version, created by and released by Valve in 2005? Again, I'm at a loss here as to what that has to do with anything.

The official stance of the devs at MW:LL was that there was no C&D order or threat of one, you are saying there was and you've seen it, which is oddly enough what was posted on the MW:LL forums and why someone there felt the need to say it wasn't real. So which story is real?

You've obviously gone a bone to pick with PGI, that's obvious, so you'll excuse me if I take your statements with a grain of salt. Russ addressed this issue, it was addressed officially on the MW:LL forums as well at the time, and both seems to contradict your statement, sorry.

As for Star Citizen, I've got friends who had invested in it, I ask them about it's state every so often and whether I should invest in it. These same people have as much invested in MWO as I do, which is quite a bit. Every single time the answer from them has been 'NO, do not give SC any money, they've yet to meet a single date they've set and when they DO finally release content, it's not what was advertised'. Sorry, again, I'm going to take someone else's word over yours, especially since you so obviously have an axe to grind re PGI.

mrripley9, Russ directly answered the allegations some time ago, no such C&D order from PGI, gentleman's agreement that MW:LL would stop producing new content, that's it.

http://mwomercs.com/...ld-sues-hasbro/

It wasnt about a direct "WERE TAKING YOU TO COURT" its the constant 'rising' of HG everytime theres something they can cry about. Theyre a looming threat over the franchise at all times. That air of threat, was a part of the perfect storm of things that convinced Samurai it was time to move on. Its pressure. When you get a little pressure from HG, a little from Microsoft, a little from PGI, a little from the community itself, plus your own pressures to do something without as much outside focus, you generally start wanting to move away from that project.

It wasnt over the console title either, that was slated for the PC. PGI didnt have any console experience, nor a team at the time to multi plat it. It was definitely coming to the PC.

DoD, my point was, the idea of a mod isnt to produce the mod forever, or for money. Its about experience, and a resume. Everyone from the DoD team including myself, got hired after we sold it to valve. Thats par for the course. Hence why you saw the talent from LL be picked up. Thats no surprise to me. We got lucky and had a team of people really talent and passionate. Same with Kangroo Software who made Team Fortress for Quake. They got hired by Valve. ( I still talk to Robin Walker all the time) Thats why people make mods. I was just explaining that for people who dont get it.

There were a large number of factors that lead to the end of MWLL. Its the life course of any good mod. You make something you love, people love it, they hire you.

I dont have an axe to grind with PGI at all. Its just the reality of the situation.

PS.

And it was the same case with Gabe, he came to us and said "We're doing team fortress 2, we need you guys to stop, heres some money, take it or the CaD letters start."

It was nicer than that, as im sure PGIs conversation with Samurai was nicer than that, but thats the jist of it.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 March 2015 - 10:33 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

KraftySOT, I see why the HG issue would be a problem for MW:LL, after all, they do still have that Marauder listed as an IS Mech, even though it was never used. Yeah, that would definitely get a letter from HG, they are rather rabid about that stuff, regardless of profit, you can't use their stuff or you'll get sued and sued and sued, that's a fact. Why anyone at MW:LL even considered it, much less posted it on the website, is totally beyond me.

And yes, the video that PGI did in 2009 was for a console title, it's what they wanted to do, it's something they've been doing for many years, you haven't read their list of games I take it. They wanted to do THIS game for consoles, but MS refused to allow a PlayStation version, so they went PC. Those hunter games you mentioned for example, console versions as well as PC, might have missed that. And of course the PSP only games they did, guess you missed those as well?

Sorry man, but you really are coming across as someone who really has an axe to grind in regards to PGI.

[Whatzituyah]

Its simple Mektek had to stop their free MW4 and MW: LL had to stop making theirs why? Because they both had cease and desist letters thats where it all stands. One can't say or deny hence the silence Phil had because then that in turn will cause another legal action. Tell me I have a tin foil hat on all you want this is some obvious stuff going on.

[The Red Priest]

Aethon, on 09 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

As an alpha tester and content contributor in MWLL (there are a few others here as well), I will tell you what I know since, unlike some others, I am not bound by any STFU legal paperwork.

PGI approached MWLL to come to an agreement on how they could gimp MWLL, because apparently, Battlefield 3065 and World of Mechs cannot coexist. They came up with the following terms:

1. MWLL could not have persistent stat tracking.
2. The mechlab, which was damned near complete, must be omitted.
3. No new features could be added after January 1st, 2013. Bugs could be fixed, and issues could be addressed, but no new features (mechs, maps, assets of any type) could be added beyond that point.

As long as Wandering Samurai Studios agreed, and adhered, to those terms, there would be no actual cease-and-desist letter.

Some who have no knowledge of the subject whatsoever will come in here and call BS, or tell everyone that 'the MWLL fanboys all have their tinfoil hats on', etc. If you go into the Wayback Machine and look up MWLL's main page from the day the first announcement was made, it confirms what I am telling you; that announcement was changed the following day to the way it stands in their archives now. I believe it was some time in July or August 2013.

Furthermore, when Russ claims that he is on friendly terms with the MWLL folks, and that he 'spoke with someone at a convention, and the guy was glad he could just shut it down and move on', he is completely full of crap. First off, if the team had features that were complete and/or nearly complete, why would they abruptly omit them from the game, and shut the mod down shortly thereafter? If the mod had been allowed to complete all planned features prior to being canned by PGI, I seriously doubt the current level of bad blood would exist. For example, every member of the Hell's Horses from MWLL was a dev or content contributor; I am the only whose love of Battletech outweighed my hatred for PGI after what they did.

TL;DR: PGI shut down MWLL, and some persist in denying it.

Can you give me the link to where that's all said? I can't find it. >.>

[KraftySOT]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

KraftySOT, I see why the HG issue would be a problem for MW:LL, after all, they do still have that Marauder listed as an IS Mech, even though it was never used. Yeah, that would definitely get a letter from HG, they are rather rabid about that stuff, regardless of profit, you can't use their stuff or you'll get sued and sued and sued, that's a fact. Why anyone at MW:LL even considered it, much less posted it on the website, is totally beyond me.

And yes, the video that PGI did in 2009 was for a console title, it's what they wanted to do, it's something they've been doing for many years, you haven't read their list of games I take it. They wanted to do THIS game for consoles, but MS refused to allow a PlayStation version, so they went PC. Those hunter games you mentioned for example, console versions as well as PC, might have missed that. And of course the PSP only games they did, guess you missed those as well?

Sorry man, but you really are coming across as someone who really has an axe to grind in regards to PGI.

Unless im mistaking something, the timeline went like this: PGI boots its console team, other than the founders/holders, shops for licenses, gets MW, makes video, HG says uh wtf warhammer, PGI says Microsoft shield us! MS said "you on your own" PGI went to kickstarter, hired a PC team, MWO happens.

HG is the guillotine thats constantly over the heads of this franchise. Its like if Ridley Scott was running around suing people for using The Alien. You wouldnt see that many Alien mods last very long (something that has actually happened, just it wasnt old Ridley doing it).

When PGI picked up MW, they had iirc, 6 employees. None of which were console coders. That entire part of their staff was laid off. So I dont think they ever had any intention of making a console title, unless there was an event previous to the video that I missed.

[KraftySOT]

[Redacted]

One of them might have mumbled incoherently that it was going to be a console title, but all the 8ball signs point to PC. How do you make a console title with no console team, after you laid off your last console team.

[Redacted]

They rent the license from Microsoft...to make a Playstation title? Wut?

No, they meant to make a PC game the entire time, and then maybe port it to consoles, for the phat loot, like World of Tanks did.

And simply listing facts, isnt an axe to grind.

I could sit here and say the same things of lurid past of the entire franchise, not just PGI. HG, Activision, Topp, FASA, 'other FASA' Whiz kids, Catalyst, they all have their faults and operational shortfalls. Everything does. So does Valve, Epic, RSI, Cornered Rat, Punklabs, Gearbox.

The industry is fubar at the moment. Maybe you missed that memo. If theres any axe grinding at all, its me grinding an axe against the entire game industry. PGI is just one of MANY companies that have a rather embarrassing past in this industry. Its nearly impossible to find a company that isnt like this.

Edited by Tina Benoit, 11 March 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Whatzituyah]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Unless im mistaking something, the timeline went like this: PGI boots its console team, other than the founders/holders, shops for licenses, gets MW, makes video, HG says uh wtf warhammer, PGI says Microsoft shield us! MS said "you on your own" PGI went to kickstarter, hired a PC team, MWO happens.

HG is the guillotine thats constantly over the heads of this franchise. Its like if Ridley Scott was running around suing people for using The Alien. You wouldnt see that many Alien mods last very long (something that has actually happened, just it wasnt old Ridley doing it).

When PGI picked up MW, they had iirc, 6 employees. None of which were console coders. That entire part of their staff was laid off. So I dont think they ever had any intention of making a console title, unless there was an event previous to the video that I missed.

Does this count? PGI was hired by Smith and Tinker before they went bankrupt however as you can see in this video Harmony Gold may of had been involved with that Bankruptcy.

[KraftySOT]

Which remember when they said maps cost 150k-250k?

Who do you think they were paying that too...

Probably the one lady with the litany of titles under her belt. Who then opened a trendy hip Japanese restaurant.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Well ive shared some pm s with a mod from MWLL on the Sc forums. He sounded a bit angry at pgi. MWLL devs werent happy how the things happened. But at the end kraft is right, you do a mod in the knowledge that it isnt a long lasting project. For the most mod devs its a great opportunity to show your skills and experience. Its like a buisness card. And most MWLL devs work now in big studios like valve, Rs or crytek.

[KraftySOT]

Whatzituyah, on 09 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does this count? PGI was hired by Smith and Tinker before they went bankrupt however as you can see in this video Harmony Gold may of had been involved with that Bankruptcy.

Yeah thats the video in question. "The other battletech guy" (I dont mention his name...like ... "that clan") its pretty convoluted but the way I hear it, PGI got the license, "The other guy" had a company. There was mingling. That video was the result. HG went ... uh wut? And they took "the other guy" and left Smith to rot.

They they realized they needed a shield in the future. Micosoft said no. So IGP came about.

This was all going on in the span of a year. So I dont think there was any solid plan for console vs pc, other than that you still develop console games, on PCs, so for an operation of their size, it was inevitable.

Im still not entirely sure who, how, and what, was going on between "The other Btech guy" with regards to the license, where he is now, why he announced he had the rights, and why PGI has them now.

But I do know.


I miss you Jordan. Ima preorder that Shadowrun game. Bet.

[KraftySOT]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 09 March 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Well ive shared some pm s with a mod from MWLL on the Sc forums. He sounded a bit angry at pgi. MWLL devs werent happy how the things happened. But at the end kraft is right, you do a mod in the knowledge that it isnt a long lasting project. For the most mod devs its a great opportunity to show your skills and experience. Its like a buisness card. And most MWLL devs work now in big studios like valve, Rs or crytek.

Mods are to the gaming industry what a demo tape is to the music industry.

Good example, my buddy from an old Atlanta hardcore band Neon Christ, is now singing for Alice in Chains. No one joins a punk band in their teens because they want to play music for no pay infront of 20 drunk jerks who cant understand what your singer is saying because of the horrible PA and sound system...you do it because you want to showcase your abilities, and move on to something more artistically satisfying that also pays the rent.

What people look for is passion and talent. If you arent out there doing it, no one cares about what you say you can do.

Thats why more amateur modders get hired into great positions than Full Sail graduates with nothing but a diploma.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 March 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[LordMelvin]

GeneralArmchair, on 09 March 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Territory control was far more important in mwll than it ever is in MWO.

MWO can't seem to escape the perpetual team death match feel.

That's because MW:LL had far large maps than even Alpine, which meant that if Gamma was being contested the heavies at Theta either needed to haul ass or find something equally important to do. A team that deathballed would likely get outcapped since there was no way they were going to catch the enemy lights who were capping and always staying just out of reach.

Gauss/PPC doesn't mean much when the closest target is over 3KM away and moving fast.

[The Red Priest]

Russ just told me this over twitter, "[color=#292F33]Pretty much nothing ever - only talked to one guy who works at Crytek that was involved." >.>[/color]

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

mrripley9, on 09 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Russ just told me this over twitter, "[color=#292F33]Pretty much nothing ever - only talked to one guy who works at Crytek that was involved." >.>[/color]

Oh yeah that russ guy. What happened to him? Is he still on the forums? After Transfail it felt like he was cm ing 24/7 on these forums. Now only twitter again ha o.O. Buisness might not be in danger anymore

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 09 March 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Taemien]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Where did you see a Marauder in MW:LL? I would like to pilot it

Never made it in. But it was concept modeled:

http://wiki.mechlivi...?title=Marauder

[Heffay]

MW:LL is just a dog whistle at this point. Those who hate PGI are going to use it as proof of how evil PGI is, facts be damned.

[Metus regem]

Heffay, on 09 March 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

MW:LL is just a dog whistle at this point. Those who hate PGI are going to use it as proof of how evil PGI is, facts be damned.

Or rather:

I think they just need to:

[Whatzituyah]

Metus regem, on 09 March 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Or rather:

I think they just need to:

It was a master piece and had more stuff that is done right compared to MWO even though MWO is getting better.

[Heffay]

Whatzituyah, on 09 March 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

It was a master piece and had more stuff that is done right compared to MWO even though MWO is getting better.