102 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

5LeafClover, on 09 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

But personally I'm not hung up on using all 4 hard points.

That's really the bummer. Its almost like your intended not to use all 4,points, yet are made to suffer because of it (the mech has 4 ballistics, so we better give it 1 energy).

I was against this before, but maybe we do need something like an A/C1 or A/C 0.5. High RoF, low damage, low weight, but better than a paltry MGs range (and not nearly that much ammo).

Just something to use on Medium's ballistic hard points for some fire suppression and still allow for OK ammo and speed.

[Clint Steel]

Ya, in their current state, multiple ballistics on mediums is a bit difficult to justify all the tonnage needed. Even the best mechs at it like the Shadow Hawk, have seen their energy varients become more popular. On top of this there is CW, where ammo becomes a great reason to leave a weapon behind.

I ended up leveling my 5P with a Large Pulse Laser, and a Gauss Rifle with 4 tons of ammo, and a STD engine (can't remember which, only did 65 or something) played like an assault.

[Brizna]

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

1. Make MGs not suck. For reals this time.

One doesn't point them in the direction of a Locusts CT and expect it to blow up, that happens when you double gauss or double PPC it, of course gausses are the heaviest guns in the game and PPCs are hot as the sun. MGs are a secondary weapon, they are a very nice at that and can even become the wining card in the right situation; given they weight so little and cause 0 heat, that's good enough for me to take them when I got empty ballistics but my mech is already too hot to consider more real weapons.

Edited by Brizna, 09 March 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[Reitrix]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 March 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

That's really the bummer. Its almost like your intended not to use all 4,points, yet are made to suffer because of it (the mech has 4 ballistics, so we better give it 1 energy).

I was against this before, but maybe we do need something like an A/C1 or A/C 0.5. High RoF, low damage, low weight, but better than a paltry MGs range (and not nearly that much ammo).

Just something to use on Medium's ballistic hard points for some fire suppression and still allow for OK ammo and speed.

Or maybe we just do something about the absurd amount of damage most 'Mechs can pump into a single pixel in a single shot, so that a quad MG + big laser Medium can actually dish out some damage and not be one shot from half the map away

[LordNothing]

i think we simply need an intermediate range ballistic weapon because there is a huge tonnage gap between a half ton machine gun and an ac2 (or a quarter ton to 5t gap for the clans).

i kind of think machine gun ammo types could also help. as i understand it mgs are nerfed against armor but hit structure at full strength. so why not have armor piercing ammo which can hurt armor, possibly at the expense of less ammo/ton, rate of fire, overall damage, or heat penalties.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 March 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[5LeafClover]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

O.o
Not only does the Enforcer not have the Crit Slots for an AC20, how the crap did you intend to cram a 14 ton cannon with a 7 ton laser and still have an engine + ammo?

Fair criticism. I'm at work so didn't smurfy it.

Concept would still work though for ac10 or lbx. 21 tonnes plus ammo is the same for me now with ac5s and ll. I've not been stupid with engine or armour to achieve this either.

[FupDup]

Brizna, on 09 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

One doesn't point them in the direction of a Locusts CT and expect it to blow up, that happens when you double gauss or double PPC it, of course gausses are the heaviest guns in the game and PPCs are hot as the sun. MGs are a secondary weapon, they are a very nice at that that can even become the wining card in the right situation; given they weight so little and cause 0 heat, that's good enough for me to take them when I got empty ballistics but my mech is already too hot to consider more real weapons.

Saying that they're a secondary weapon would imply that they can actually, like, hurt things. Right now they're a tickle cannon. The only reason people take them is because there is literally not a single other possible choice for low-tonnage ballistics. People would start to actually use Small Lasers if we suddenly deleted Medium Lasers, for example, because they would be forced to.

If we got actually decent future light ballistics like the Magshot or AP Gauss (both of which weigh 0.5 tons), MGs would go nearly extinct overnight.


If you wanna talk tonnage, I'll point you to the newly improved Small Pulse Lasers being extremely efficient for their weight in close quarters, while having better effective range because of no CoF (better max range for Clan version), infinite ammo, way more damage, and not requiring continuous face time, while being pretty dang heat efficient as well.

There are other opportunity costs that just weight. There's also short range, continuous DoT nature (constant facetime, no upfront alpha strike damage whatsoever), ammo, and perhaps requiring a decent number of hardpoints to get them to be good (even if buffed).

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[N a p e s]

Fix MGs please.

[Tahribator]

I agree, they're useless now (especially the 1X, since it can only mount one AC). Though things might change when PGI decides to introduce more weapons/advance timeline as others said.

Last Summer the TDR was the one of the absolute worst 'Mechs you can buy in MWO. Now, they're probably the most popular Is heavy.

[LordNothing]

Ozealot, on 09 March 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

So you don't like hardpoint inflation? Play Clans.

3x lb2 kitfox is kind of awesome.

[Ragtag soldier]

it's fun watching you guys complain about literally nothing. either git gud or accept the 'mech isn't right for you.

[Revis Volek]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Standard Engine with a pair of UAC5s and a single Medium Laser is so far my single best performing Enforcer ........


Maybe stop spamming shots and fire them singularly? I can get an insane RoF out of my UAC5s on both my Enforcer and the PPC UAC5 build i use on my K2.

This is also my best performing ENF variant.

Just 2 UA/C5's and one medium laser with 2 or 3 jj's xl 250 and rest ammo.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm just surprised that more people don't see excessive ballistic hardpoints in a medium as suboptimal.

With the Enforcer 5P being even 3 Ballistic and 2 Energy, it could have been much more flexible. 3AC2s, 2MLasers, a decent speed (still low ammo count though). I'm sure it would still be a bit much with 3 A/C2s, but it could be OK with 2 energy backup.

Heck, the Vindicator 1X at 2 Ballistics and 3 Energy could have used 2 A/C5s and some small energy backup or some crazy dual A/C2 build. You could have even run 2 effectively large energy with 2 MGs and still had the option to bypass ballistics while still being effective.

I just didn't think people were ok (atleast with current weapons at hand) sacrificing 1 energy or 1 missile hard point for an MG.

[Fragnot]

Beavis once asked Butthead "Why do things have to suck?"

And Butthead replied "Uh if nothing sucked, how would we know what was cool?"

[Deathlike]

I already wrote an article on it. I don't think enough people seem to care.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4190400

You're not going to win any argument because "logic". Trying to explain this to PGI is the equivalent of pulling teeth.

[Roadkill]

Don't try to use all the hardpoints. I run 2 x UAC/5 and a medium laser with a 250XL on my 5P, and it's a great Mech. 6 tons of ammo as I recall.

The trick is that Enforcers aren't brawlers. They're medium range direct fire. Use the UAC/5s at 300-500 meters and the jams won't matter all that much. ALWAYS stay near bigger Mechs. Use sniper tactics (shoot & scoot). Fire 2-5 shots and then get back behind cover. Wait for the unjam (if necessary) and then repeat.

[Reitrix]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 March 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

I'm just surprised that more people don't see excessive ballistic hardpoints in a medium as suboptimal.

With the Enforcer 5P being even 3 Ballistic and 2 Energy, it could have been much more flexible. 3AC2s, 2MLasers, a decent speed (still low ammo count though). I'm sure it would still be a bit much with 3 A/C2s, but it could be OK with 2 energy backup.

Heck, the Vindicator 1X at 2 Ballistics and 3 Energy could have used 2 A/C5s and some small energy backup or some crazy dual A/C2 build. You could have even run 2 effectively large energy with 2 MGs and still had the option to bypass ballistics while still being effective.

I just didn't think people were ok (atleast with current weapons at hand) sacrificing 1 energy or 1 missile hard point for an MG.

But why would you build a 'Mech with Ballistic HPs specifically NOT to make use of them?

Half the problem is our current "if i cant alpha it, its worthless" mindset. The MG is ridiculously good at spraying down internals and removing threats without actually punching the component off.
You'd be surprised to learn that the twin MGs on my Enforcer allowed me to neuter and then take down a Dire Wolf i cought from behind, the MGs destroyed every AC he had in his STs and the fool hadn't put on backup lasers, so he was trying to kill me with 2 AC5s.

Every weapon has its place, inb a variety of situations.
Even my Dire Wolves carry MGs when not boating heavier Ballistics, because that spray can be effective Light deterrent, they don't stick around when they're taking damage. Not to mention an extra layer of literally free damage when things get into facehug range.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Roadkill, on 09 March 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Don't try to use all the hardpoints. I run 2 x UAC/5 and a medium laser with a 250XL on my 5P, and it's a great Mech. 6 tons of ammo as I recall.

The trick is that Enforcers aren't brawlers. They're medium range direct fire. Use the UAC/5s at 300-500 meters and the jams won't matter all that much. ALWAYS stay near bigger Mechs. Use sniper tactics (shoot & scoot). Fire 2-5 shots and then get back behind cover. Wait for the unjam (if necessary) and then repeat.

I'll definently try and keep that in mind. Maybe I get too over-zelous with the new mech. I normally prefer a more stand-offish approach, but eagerness may get the best of me.

Still though, I understand the whole idea of "don't use all the hard points". However, my point is, if we aren't expected to use all our ballistic hardpoints then why are they there and why do we lose more valuable low tonnage hard points for them?

I'm hoping these ballistic heavy mediums and even lights eventually get a weapon to better utilize those spots.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 09 March 2015 - 08:11 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

But why would you build a 'Mech with Ballistic HPs specifically NOT to make use of them?

Half the problem is our current "if i cant alpha it, its worthless" mindset. The MG is ridiculously good at spraying down internals and removing threats without actually punching the component off.
You'd be surprised to learn that the twin MGs on my Enforcer allowed me to neuter and then take down a Dire Wolf i cought from behind, the MGs destroyed every AC he had in his STs and the fool hadn't put on backup lasers, so he was trying to kill me with 2 AC5s.

Every weapon has its place, inb a variety of situations.
Even my Dire Wolves carry MGs when not boating heavier Ballistics, because that spray can be effective Light deterrent, they don't stick around when they're taking damage. Not to mention an extra layer of literally free damage when things get into facehug range.

I get what your saying, but I'm not sure an MG is a worthy sacrifice for another low weight hard point. In edition too, sure, but I don't feel it is worth a 1 for 1 trade (especially because of the limited range and primarily crit seeking niche attributes).

[CDLord HHGD]

You don't have to shoe-horn weapons into every hardpoint available...... Some people might find a build that uses them all, but not everyone has to. Sometimes, less is more.