191 replies to this topic

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Praetor Knight, on 10 March 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

The thing is the translation should have been one turn equals 10 seconds, so that would have been 5 damage over 10 seconds or 7 damage over 10 seconds. So if you would give, for example, the IS-ML and C-ER ML the same burn time and cooldown, then what we'd see is:

I'm not talking about translating weapons from TT to MWO accurately, I'm talking about a hypothetical where the power of clan weapons in MWO when compared to IS matches the the power (im)balance expressed in TT.
This was in response to the question "Could Clans compete with a numerical/tonnage disadvantage if their weapons were restored to proper power levels?".

The answer to that question is a very resounding yes.

[xxREVxx]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

No. It's not.

It's to bad then when someone brings this subject up Clan pilots feel threatened and usually fire back with "you suck you have no balls" or "It's the pilot not the mech" just as you did today.

This reductionist response reflects that they are afraid to lose the advantage being in a clan mech provides, or you might say what makes a clan mech a clan mech. But that's okay, the game was not set up for Clan mechs and IS mechs to be on par and "the game" I mean this game. If they were supposed to be par they would have the came out with the same weapons, weapons systems, XL engines, etc.... but they didn't because the clan tech is better, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Better tech smaller numbers, that is the basis of the Clan vs IS that PGI has presented since launch and before the clan had even arrived. They promoted it (correctly I might add) but never figured out the crucial "smaller numbers" factor and gave up. And because of that failure to manage 10vs12, PGI attempts to quirk, it is why they try to juggle drop weight. PGI knows Clan tech is superior because they designed to be before they gave up on 10vs12, and they know it because it was always the intention during the lead up to the invasion, and they knew it finally and most importantly because it is why clan mechs cost more, especially in real money. Pilots don't pay twice as much for a mech because they expect it to be "on par" with the IS mechs, we pay more because we are buying Clan mechs.

Once we all stop pretending that isn't the case and taking any acknowledgement of it as a attack on clan pilots we will all be better off.

More importantly, instead of the constant whining and lobbying to get this or that mech nerfed or buffed. We could urge in the most consistent and constructive way possible that PGI should instead apply those energies to getting us 10 vs 12 matches in CW.

They will have to do it soon, or before you know it we will all be Clanners and only have newbies and a handful of lore-nuts to fight in the IS.

This I can get on board with.

BUT I will bet my Timberwolf Prime PGI will never even entertain this idea. My best guess of why would be (and I'm just throwing numbers out there) if they were ever to implement something like a 5 or 10 Clan vs 12 IS matchup, is that they would have to bring more servers online to make up the difference for the minus 7 or 2 players per match.
All I know is that this crap is getting old.

Another solution and I've said this before.

If the IS/Clan balance is too tough for them to figure out?
Remove the clans.
Reset the map.
Refund the money to people who have paid for clan tech.
Refund the C-bills to those that have grinded for their clan tech.
and we'll just have Succession Wars and the game will die in a year.

[Wildstreak]

Not one mention of CW problems.
OP and others assume Clans have the most players yet none of us have access to the actual numbers, just another myth like the times people assume how many are playing.

Closest data is based of the PGI rewards adjustments, by that the largest Faction pops are
Davion - loses nothing to Clans, faces them on defense but only if they want to, spends a lot of time fighting Marik & Kurita.
Steiner - hardly ever speak anymore, tend to sit back and get slowly eaten away but not as bad as Kurita or FRR.
Ghost Bear - been on a roll from start.
Smoke Jaguar - seemed to slow up once but now have momentum.

Marik then has the next highest pop, they spend all their time trash talking since, like Davion, they can only defend against Clans.

Next up is Wolf & Jade Falcon who somehow manage to make gains despite being the #6 & #7 Factions in pop size, #3 & #4 ranked from smallest pop first.

Bringing up the rear is Kurita, Liao & Rasalhague or #1 - #3 ranked smallest first, all 3 having lost lots of territory

Faction pop size along with strong alliances are why GB & SJ have made such progress. I don't know why Wolf & JF are so small if we beilieve this rumor about Clan tech being OP, they should be up in the pop size ranks yet they are not so that kills part of the story about Clan tech. Despite being small in pop size, Wolf & JF still have made some progress. Two of the biggest IS factions, Davion & Marik, seem more interested in causing trouble among the IS, Steiner just sits there drinking while Atlas Scout lances get slowly chewed up, Liao is the quiet kid everyone picks on, Kurita is the one pretending everything is fine at home when people can see it isn't and FRR tries to talk reason while it dies.

Oh yeah, clearly it is nothing but the tech, the IS attitude problems have nothing to do with anything.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Wildstreak, on 10 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

. I don't know why Wolf & JF are so small if we beilieve this rumor about Clan tech being OP, they should be up in the pop size ranks yet they are not so that kills part of the story about Clan tech.

I don't have a horse in CW, nor do I think Clan tech is overpowering as instituted in MWO, but...nothing you posted here debunks or proves anything. Sadly, without full clarity on numbers, everything we post in the forums is based on too many assumptions to have a decent discussion.

[topgun505]

I don't know that there is anything the clans can do that the IS can't match in some way other than the dakka or gsuss DW.

At this point i think it is more of the skill of the pilots on each team plus the amount of coordination/communication each team has.

You never know. You spawn in and see someone on your team in a LCT-1E that you anticipate is going to be worthless and that guy ends up getting not only the first kill (solo, no less) but gets several more kills and nearly top damage for your team.

The point is, it isn't about the tech anymore. Do they have some advantages? Sure. XL engines namely. But it isn't an earth-shattering difference now.

[RussianWolf]

I'll put it this way. The new map has been out for over a month now right? I have yet to see it. Not playing CW until these posts in the forums are the exception and not the norm.

And yes, I'm in a unit and yes, we have both a CW team and a Competitive team. So if I wanted to, I could. But I'm a casual player and don't like "same old mechs, same old builds" in every drop that I see there.

[Apnu]

Hillslam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Silly you. The clan mechs aren't more powerful. They are neutered sacks of wet tissues piloted by heroes of unmatched skill and tactical genius. pfft

That's some impressive sarcasm.

[Apnu]

Wildstreak, on 10 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Not one mention of CW problems.
OP and others assume Clans have the most players yet none of us have access to the actual numbers, just another myth like the times people assume how many are playing.

Closest data is based of the PGI rewards adjustments, by that the largest Faction pops are
Davion - loses nothing to Clans, faces them on defense but only if they want to, spends a lot of time fighting Marik & Kurita.
Steiner - hardly ever speak anymore, tend to sit back and get slowly eaten away but not as bad as Kurita or FRR.
Ghost Bear - been on a roll from start.
Smoke Jaguar - seemed to slow up once but now have momentum.

Marik then has the next highest pop, they spend all their time trash talking since, like Davion, they can only defend against Clans.

Next up is Wolf & Jade Falcon who somehow manage to make gains despite being the #6 & #7 Factions in pop size, #3 & #4 ranked from smallest pop first.

Bringing up the rear is Kurita, Liao & Rasalhague or #1 - #3 ranked smallest first, all 3 having lost lots of territory

Faction pop size along with strong alliances are why GB & SJ have made such progress. I don't know why Wolf & JF are so small if we beilieve this rumor about Clan tech being OP, they should be up in the pop size ranks yet they are not so that kills part of the story about Clan tech. Despite being small in pop size, Wolf & JF still have made some progress. Two of the biggest IS factions, Davion & Marik, seem more interested in causing trouble among the IS, Steiner just sits there drinking while Atlas Scout lances get slowly chewed up, Liao is the quiet kid everyone picks on, Kurita is the one pretending everything is fine at home when people can see it isn't and FRR tries to talk reason while it dies.

Oh yeah, clearly it is nothing but the tech, the IS attitude problems have nothing to do with anything.

I don't think this is entirely true. Early on in CW, Kurita tried to keep the clans at bay and failed, now they're grinding out territory from Davion and ignoring the clan front. Why?

That tells me there's a balance issue between the tech and the factions.

[Nori Silverrage]

I disagree quite strongly. I started on IS mechs but am currently primarily piloting Clans.
Why you may ask? Because I like their mobility. I find that the mobility lets me play the way I like. Not a big fan of mechs that move less than 80KPH.

Are they powerful? Sure, but keep this in mind. While clans have longer ranged weapons IS has lower duration and much better pin point damage options (AC, PPC). The duration is especially important to mention as you can apply almost the same damage for 20-40% less face time.
A lot of IS mechs have energy range, duration and heat quirks now which makes them better than clan lasers in a lot of situations. For instance, a -15% energy duration and a 15% bonus to range will make the IS LPL's duration .57 vs the clan's 1.1. Damage difference is two. Range would be 420 vs 600. The IS LPL is about 25% more heat efficent too.

So it really isn't clear cut. Clans in general have a longer range (though some IS mechs have good quirks that make it closer or even more), slightly more damage and slightly less weight for weapons. They also have better mobility. Downsides are higher duration on weapons (in some cases almost double if you count quirks), much less heat efficiency (partially mitigated by 2 slot DHS) and killing both side torso means death (minor but noticible).

IS in general have more tonnage available for weapons because of being able to swap engines out and toggling FF/Endo (plus no locked equipment). They have much better pin point damage (AC weapons are great). They are generally more heat efficient. There is a lot more variety available and some of the more useful/popular tonnages have multiple mechs (35/50/55/65).

Resonably organized IS team can beat clan. I played three matches (all on sulfuric) yesterday with friends (counterattack with us attacking) and we lost all three (the first was a real doozy too). Only one had a large group and ironically we did best against them. I know that is just 3 in a large number of matches and individual skill varies.

Hopefully PGI takes into account more than just clan vs IS win/loss because there is a lot more important info than just that. How many were using trials? What is the average ELO, KD and other important info on the teams? What was the group comp? What was the map (Boreal is easy to defend for any team). What were the mech comps?

[Novawrecker]

Original Poster -

Do not fret. Although clan mechs do seem more powerful (and there is no denying they have certain advantages that may at times seem a tad unfair), IS also has advantages which are put to extreme use providing them an edge that have the clanners cry home to their test tubes. You might just be lacking exposure to these methods being deployed by IS, but they are out there and we're using them daily

[Metus regem]

Novawrecker, on 10 March 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Original Poster -

Do not fret. Although clan mechs do seem more powerful (and there is no denying they have certain advantages that may at times seem a tad unfair), IS also has advantages which are put to extreme use providing them an edge that have the clanners cry home to their test tubes. You might just be lacking exposure to these methods being deployed by IS, but they are out there and we're using them daily

Well said, as someone coming from playing clans to IS now, use the shorter burn times, and FLD Auto Cannons to your advantage, use the map terrain to get in close on Clan mechs, 99% of Clan mechs DO NOT want you in their face, their mechs run hot, and have a very limited number of FLD weapons. meaning that if you are in close, torso twist like a boss, and make them spread that damage all over your mech, meaning you are making it so it will take them 3 - 5 times as long to kill you, rather than getting into a starring contest with them.

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[Amsro]

Metus regem, on 10 March 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Well said, as someone coming from playing clans to IS now, use the shorter burn times, and FLD Auto Cannons to your advantage, use the map terrain to get in close on Clan mechs, 99% of Clan mechs DO NOT want you in their face, their mechs run hot, and have a very limited number of FLD weapons. meaning that if you are in close, torso twist like a boss, and make them spread that damage all over your mech, meaning you are making it so it will take them 3 - 5 times as long to kill you, rather than getting into a starring contest with them.

Indeed, in the matches that we've won vs the clans (quite a few actually) It was the aggressive push and in your face fighting that wins the matches.

The major flaw of clan mechs is they run hot as ****, only on CW map 1 do the clammers have the advantage overall. Nice cool map.

I would say that clan mechs should be balanced between themselves first before attempting to balance clan vs IS. Some clan mechs are garbage and others are tier 1.

And truly this game has never been balanced, well before clans ever made their appearance.

[DivideByZer0]

Hillslam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Silly you. The clan mechs aren't more powerful. They are neutered sacks of wet tissues piloted by heroes of unmatched skill and tactical genius. pfft

Nice troll...
When IS mechs can currently alpha 4 ERLL without overheating at a longer range than the supposed "OP" clan lasers... The other night I got told by an IS pilot that the Ice Ferret was OP. I was laughing so hard I almost lost my mech.. Still chuckling..

[Metus regem]

Amsro, on 10 March 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

Indeed, in the matches that we've won vs the clans (quite a few actually) It was the aggressive push and in your face fighting that wins the matches.

The major flaw of clan mechs is they run hot as ****, only on CW map 1 do the clammers have the advantage overall. Nice cool map.

I would say that clan mechs should be balanced between themselves first before attempting to balance clan vs IS. Some clan mechs are garbage and others are tier 1.

And truly this game has never been balanced, well before clans ever made their appearance.

I'd counter that cold CW map favours them, my first drop as an IS pilot was against clans on the cold map, and we stomped them a new mud-hole, IS (pug) 48 vs Clan (pug) 17.... and the IS was on the offensive, so the Clans had range and cold in their favor, we just hill humped in, and fought them at under 200m...

my deck at the time:

CN9-A(C)
CN9-D
YEN-LO-WANG
KGC-000

Only one of my mechs didn't see any action that drop, and that was the CN9-D

[Amsro]

Metus regem, on 10 March 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'd counter that cold CW map favours them, my first drop as an IS pilot was against clans on the cold map, and we stomped them a new mud-hole, IS (pug) 48 vs Clan (pug) 17.... and the IS was on the offensive, so the Clans had range and cold in their favor, we just hill humped in, and fought them at under 200m...

my deck at the time:

CN9-A(C)
CN9-D
YEN-LO-WANG
KGC-000

Only one of my mechs didn't see any action that drop, and that was the CN9-D

My only counter to your post would be that in PUG vs PUG matches anything can happen.

Just start rolling dice.

[Metus regem]

Amsro, on 10 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

My only counter to your post would be that in PUG vs PUG matches anything can happen.

Just start rolling dice.

Very true, but I know I went into it, know what I would face, and knowing how to counter it. Against the two Dire Wovles we ran in to, I got on the ridge out of the reach of their guns, since they couldn't pitch their torsos high enough to hit me, when I was in the CN9-LYW, and with the KGC, I was an unholy terror to Laser vomit Timber Wolves, when they turned to bring their guns to bare, I gave my 1-2 punch, then twisted like a boss, till the AC 20's were good to go again.

Edit:

Thinking on it, that's the real core issue, of a lot of QQ about clans, is people don't really know how to counter the Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf and Storm Crow...

The Dire Wolf is beastly, but isn't very agile, use that against it.
The Timber Wolf is HOT, use that against it.
The Storm Crow in SSRM vomit is killer against lights, but useless at 400m, use that against it.
If they run laser vomit, they run hot, use that heat against them, get in close and brawl.

Edited by Metus regem, 10 March 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Elkfire]

The problem is that when people talk about clan mechs being overpowered, they're talking about the Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Stormcrow, and to a degree the Hellbringer. Not the others. So nerfs across the board are not what's needed.

[Amsro]

Metus regem, on 10 March 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Very true, but I know I went into it, know what I would face, and knowing how to counter it. Against the two Dire Wovles we ran in to, I got on the ridge out of the reach of their guns, since they couldn't pitch their torsos high enough to hit me, when I was in the CN9-LYW, and with the KGC, I was an unholy terror to Laser vomit Timber Wolves, when they turned to bring their guns to bare, I gave my 1-2 punch, then twisted like a boss, till the AC 20's were good to go again.

Good tactics win matches.

I do like to take 2 King Crabs in my CW drop deck, but with only 50 tons left over for 2 more mechs, your options dwindle quickly.

Locust + Spider
Commado + Commando

Thats about it.