191 replies to this topic

[Destructicus]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

a superior tech line opponent versus a numerically superior opponent.

Russ specifically addressed this in the first wave of clan nerfs.
Something along the lines of "we don't want you to think the only way you can beat the clans is by throwing enough robots at it until it falls down"

Exactly how much fun would that be?
For either side?

[Void Angel]

Destructicus, on 09 March 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

It's funny because my statement was directly related to balance and the whole clan vs is thing
but w/e
imagemacroslolimadeanonpoint

Actually, I just did a Google image search. And the image is valid because, well, read the image. Trying to shift the subject to what you were arguing about, rather than how you made the argument, though.. well,

[Jonny Slam]

cSand, on 09 March 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

I could but I said all I had back in my novella on page 3 or 4

Well it might be helpful for you if you read what other people had to say, that's always a good place to start if you want to discuss a subject like this, I know it always helps me. Luckily we have had some pretty interesting post and insights made by the other people in the thread.

Cheers.

[WazOfOz]

Have you tried clan mechs ? they have some draw backs & some of the IS quirks are pretty neat. happy hunting mech warrior.

Edited by WazOfOz, 09 March 2015 - 10:55 PM.

[Destructicus]

Void Angel, on 09 March 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

Actually, I just did a Google image search. And the image is valid because, well, read the image. Trying to shift the subject to what you were arguing about, rather than how you made the argument, though.. well,

That's an awfully one dimensional way of looking at the topic of balance if you're not considering the tweaks and buff that clans have undergone while discussing player numbers.

Theres many things to keep in mind when discussing balance.
My subject is very much related to the original subject.

If you want to discuss one aspect of balnce between clans vs is and disregard others you're not going to make a very well rounded argument.

[Jonny Slam]

luxebo, on 09 March 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

I spend an hour off this thread and it becomes this. Clanners please settle down and actually argue properly and stop trolling the thread to oblivion. This thread is just like the balance at the moment,

I think quirks helped massively. For example the 4N would be garbage without quirks, same as RVN-2X, and HBKs/FS9s.

The thing is that they are using quirks for the wrong purposes. If quirks continue to be in the wrong direction (i.e. force each mech into supreme DPS race) then it's sorta wasted, but if they try to start making mech roles (seeing some improvement like in the Zues/Grasshopper quirks with armor quirks etc), then it maybe improving.

Good points, especially concerning the 4N, but I would argue that overall the quirks have hurt the more than they have helped. The inflating of some IS mechs to a arbitrary extreme just inflamed the Clan base which then fueled a even less well thought out Quirk pass in it's wake, and these last iterations of quirks display such a lack of coherence that it undercut the company with the player base.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the quirk stop-gap method is so wrong headed that it is beginning to caus macro-damage I.E. damage outside of gameplay. Damage to resources with the constant forum lobbying, damage to CW with the migrating player base to the clans. Damage to the CW game play in that the waves of clans and new clans are ghost dropping in the face of non-existent foes which is no fun for either party. And it's warping battle front in that the clans are attacking 3 to 4 times more planets because there are fewer and fewer IS pilots or Mercs fighting with the IS even with heavy rewards.

KharnZor, on 09 March 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Firstly, its KharnZor.
Secondly, i see what you're doing. If you were having such an important discussion then why bother replying to my post? You could have left it at that but no.
I'm sorry, i'm not going to tell you what you want to hear but by all means continue with your discussion but quit the drive by s**tposting when someone posts something that doesnt agree with your point of view

Well Kharnzor, I thought it would be better to engage with you civilly so you might join in. I sorry you don't want to take the high road, but feel free to come on back when you do mate.

[Jonny Slam]

WazOfOz, on 09 March 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

Have you tried clan mechs ? they have some draw backs & some of the IS quirks are pretty neat. happy hunting mech warrior.

I do have several clan mechs on my separate account and use them in solo and group drops, Madcats/Timberwolves are my favorite by far, I have three fully unlocked. I also think they some of the best looking mechs in the game. I have a couple of Dires and they are a excellent way to let off steam, although I never play those in conquest mode.

[Void Angel]

Destructicus, on 09 March 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

That's an awfully one dimensional way of looking at the topic of balance if you're not considering the tweaks and buff that clans have undergone while discussing player numbers.

Theres many things to keep in mind when discussing balance.
My subject is very much related to the original subject.

If you want to discuss one aspect of balnce between clans vs is and disregard others you're not going to make a very well rounded argument.

Irony is posting a quote containing a picture definition of a Red Herring fallacy - then talking about a different topic entirely than what was quoted. Straw Man and another Red Herring in one! Bravo.

Sorry, but I saw Thank You for Smoking:
"Ah, but it's what I'm talking about" isn't going to work with me. If you notice, I've actually liked one of your posts on the subject balance; my objection here is again, with the way you made a point, not necessarily the point itself.

[Vxheous]

A 60 ton Dragon 1N with 2 AC-5 and AC-5 cooldown module can core out a laser vomit Timberwolf in the time that the laser vomit Timberwolf can alpha twice.

[Destructicus]

The way I make my point is irrelevant so long as it's made.
Attacking the way I make it is a moot point

[Johnny Z]

There is no debate if the clans are currently OP. Now that is out of the way, the issue of 10 v 12 has been brought up to help balance the "clan easy mode" and "inner sphere hard mode".

pasted from another topic.

The problems with keeping the current easy mode(clans) or going 10 v 12 in game are many.

- Do players that got IS hero mechs get a small refund?

- Do players that got IS mech packs get a small refund?

- How does "clan easy mode" effect future sales of Inner Sphere content?

- When Solaris is out do they keep "clan easy mode mechs" in seperate queues for FFA, duels etc. Having only Inner Sphere mechs face each other in these new modes and so on.

- Not everyone likes playing "easy mode" and playing "hard mode Inner Sphere" while challenging and ultimately more entertaining than easy mode has a down side or two also. This will result in massive losses to players on both sides over time.

- In game balance is even more hard to attain with lopsided gameplay. Yes it is obvious some players(clanners) dont care about game balance, but it is something all games need.

- How does "easy mode clan" effect the regular queue. Where players dropping in Inner Sphere mechs can expect to earn less credits and less exp. This has been the case for a long while now anyway. Do players that have stuck with the original mechs in game get a retroactive credit and exp bonus? What about going forward? How will the earnings be adjusted?


Yes im being very biased in this, doesnt make this arguement wrong, and I think its funny lol

By the way, the only deal breaker for going 10 v 12 or "clan easy mode" is the Solaris expansion. WIll they make a seperate Omni mech only queue for the "pay to win man babies"?

What does this wall of text about a silly game mean? Some Omni mechs will more than likely get the nerf bat. But its just a guess.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 March 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[iliketurtles87]

I think the Timberwolf need a serious buff. I mean he cant beat a king grab.

[KharnZor]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

Well Kharnzor, I thought it would be better to engage with you civilly so you might join in. I sorry you don't want to take the high road, but feel free to come on back when you do mate.

Just stop lol i dont want to take any road, although if i did my high road would be much further up than yours.
That'd make yours the low road and i aint playing that game

[Divine Retribution]

The things about 10v12 in CW are:

1. Clan mechs would have to be clearly superior to IS mechs or clan players would have to be clearly better players than IS players to maintain balance. I'd guess the former as PGI doesn't want to lose income by preventing bad players joining a clan. This in turn would likely serve to increase the clan population compared to IS players simply because it is human nature to want the best everything. Which also impacts...

2. Clanners only need 10 players to form a drop. With current population levels this means more ghost drops vs IS factions (100 players means 10 clan drops vs 8 1/3 IS drops). The number of clan players further increase because more people want to pilot the superior mechs than the inferior mechs. This leads to even more clan ghost drops. The whole IS can then suffer the same fate as the current FRR.


My prediction could be wrong if 10v12 came to pass, but I doubt it. We need to remember that ramifications extend beyond what happens during a single match. A single droplet of water sends ripples and all that....

Edited by Divine Retribution, 10 March 2015 - 12:45 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Fate 6, on 09 March 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

The only truly superior clan mechs for CW are the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf. The Hellbringer is also quite strong. Unfortunately, the Clans can bring 3/1 or 2/2 respectively of these mechs which means they drop in mass numbers with the best mechs in the game. I suspect that if Clan tonnage was dropped 10 tons instead of increasing IS tonnage (does nothing, our big mechs suck) we would see an interesting shift as taking a Timber Wolf would require the sacrifice of a Stormcrow and actually be a decision rather than an obvious choice for anyone not running Hellbringers.

10 tons for IS is HUGE.

If you cant see that TDR+TDR+FS9+ Battlemaster/Stalker or TDR+WVR+FS9+BNC are amazing options that you couldnt have before then i dunno what to tell you. Before if you took 2xTDR+FS9 you are left with 75 tons, and Orions are rubbish.

[EvilCow]

They should have implemented CW around the 10vs12 concept and let the Clan tech be. Right now nobody is happy and the game is still unbalanced. With the introduction of wave 3 the situation will probably get worse.

Those +10tons for IS side is a nice try but will change nothing.

I would try 10vs12 AND 3 waves vs 4 AND let the Clans have their tech as good as initially designed. That would be more true to CBT and fun. The CW should have been highly asymmetric from the beginning, this "tech balance" idea is not working.

[ApolloKaras]

EvilCow, on 10 March 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

They should have implemented CW around the 10vs12 concept and let the Clan tech be. Right now nobody is happy and the game is still unbalanced. With the introduction of wave 3 the situation will probably get worse.

Those +10tons for IS side is a nice try but will change nothing.

I would try 10vs12 AND 3 waves vs 4 AND let the Clans have their tech as good as initially designed. That would be more true to CBT and fun. The CW should have been highly asymmetric from the beginning, this "tech balance" idea is not working.

rofl I would sure hope you would remove the quirks. The clans would never win an engagement with what you are proposing. I still find it hard to believe that a comp team of 10 will beat a comp team of 12+another wave if they were of equal skill.... I said it earlier in this thread and not one person has yet to refute it.

[Yokaiko]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

A 60 ton Dragon 1N with 2 AC-5 and AC-5 cooldown module can core out a laser vomit Timberwolf in the time that the laser vomit Timberwolf can alpha twice.

Matches a Direwolf in DPS, likely more because it NEVER overheats and NEVER locks up like clan UACs do...constantly.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Saxie, on 10 March 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

I still find it hard to believe that a comp team of 10 will beat a comp team of 12+another wave if they were of equal skill.... I said it earlier in this thread and not one person has yet to refute it.

If clan tech was the way it is supposed to be...I think you are ignoring that part of the flight of fancy suggestion...then yeah, I can see the clan proceeding even in such an imbalance of numbers, because that would mean UACs are single shot and sans cooldown inflation, CERPPCS are true 15/15, SRMS and SSRM don't have their heat and cooldown inflated, and lasers do not have their burn time and heat inflated.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 10 March 2015 - 04:46 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 10 March 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

If clan tech was the way it is supposed to be...I think you are ignoring that part of the flight of fancy suggestion...then yeah, I can see the clan proceeding even in such an imbalance of numbers, because that would mean UACs are single shot, CERPPCS are true 15/15, SRMS and SSRM don't have their heat and cooldown inflated, and lasers do not have their burn time and heat inflated.

Enough to make up for a 200 ton deficit?