44 replies to this topic

[VinJade]

@Kaeb Odellas
so you are saying only Inner Sphere mechs should get the actual treatment of extra armor yet clan mechs should not?

that sounds more like an IS bias speaking and more than enough reason to vote no on it.

its bad enough that pgi already shows favoritism to IS mechs with all of those stupid 'quirks' and downgrades they gave clan tech.

before you call me bias I assure I am not, I have both Clan & IS mechs that I enjoy using but even I know where to draw the line.

@ AkoolPopTart
I agree and seeing as I own all of the AC games for the PS 2(The PS 1 counter parts are much harder to find) and the armor is well a lot even for light units.

and giving Mechs more armor than they should have to teetering really close to crossing into Japanese mecha territory and that would rob it of what makes it standout and makes it so different and given its own place.

to me BT is far better than all Japanese mecha games because of its more 'realistic' feel.

Edited by VinJade, 15 March 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

VinJade, on 15 March 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

@Kaeb Odellas
so you are saying only Inner Sphere mechs should get the actual treatment of extra armor yet clan mechs should not?

that sounds more like an IS bias speaking and more than enough reason to vote no on it.

its bad enough that pgi already shows favoritism to IS mechs with all of those stupid 'quirks' and downgrades they gave clan tech.

before you call me bias I assure I am not, I have both Clan & IS mechs that I enjoy using but even I know where to draw the line.

I have Clan mechs as well. I own at least 3 of every mech that's been released with the exception of the Vindicator. How about you stop assuming bias yourself before you tell others not to?

I'm saying if PGI implements this idea, they would need to be careful with how they implement it with the Clans, since it could potentially present massive buffs to two powerful mechs that absolutely don't need buffs. If they just added the same percentage to max armor that the FF upgrade would normally save on tonnage, a Clan mech would receive 20% more armor to its components compared an IS mech's 12% at half the cost in slot usage.

Or, to put it in simpler terms, an Atlas would get a 14.88 point boost to max CT armor for 14 slots. Compare this to the Timber Wolf, which gets 18.4 points and the Storm Crow, which gets 14.4. And both only use up 7 crit slots.

If implemented, the Clans would have to get a smaller percentage than the full 20% in order to not break the game. Giving the Clans the Sphere's 12% might even be too much, considering Clan FF saves far more weight and takes up fewer slots.

EDIT: And to be clear, this wouldn't necessarily be a straight upgrade to current builds. In order to make use of the extra armor, you'll have to give up the weight savings you currently get from Endo, which means allocating less armor to shield arms or giving up a bit of speed or cooling.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 16 March 2015 - 01:14 AM.

[Scyther]

I like it, it would help with a lot of areas (people worrying about TTK and weak spots on mech) and would make Ferro a viable choice rather than a "oh well I've nothing else to put in those crit spaces, might as well go Ferro and up my engine size" last choice.

(and is balanced by the fact that you are trading payload for armor)

Edited by MadBadger, 16 March 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[VinJade]

still a bad idea and as far as I am concerned they already gotten an armor upgrade over their BT counterparts.

besides where does it stop?
next thing you know people will want it increased yet again.
when will it stop?
in the end what will stop people from wanting lights having armor total of an assault and assaults have as much armor as an elephant dropship?

sooner or later the weapons will need a damage boost to try and balance everything else out.

I say if you want the idea to happen then it should cost 200% more C-bills and each armor point should cost twice as much in weight.

[cSand]

AkoolPopTart, on 15 March 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

No. Play Armor Core Verdict Day and then come back and tell me how much you want armor buffs.

Armor is fine. The last thing I need is some dude in an Atlas that has so much damage resistance that taking him down needs to be a community event that takes more than 30 minutes to complete.

Yea but for that extra armour that Atlas loses both the extra tonnage gained, and a whole load of slots.

[AkoolPopTart]

VinJade, on 15 March 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

snip

So glad someone get it! In this game, Things are killable no matter what weapon you use. You could take a mech with nothing but MG and still be able to kill something with it. In ACVD, it was impossible to do that because of the new buffer system they added which negated the effects of certain weapons.

cSand, on 16 March 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

Snip

True, but I still don't like the idea. I have not had a chance to purchase my own mech for this game, but I think the armor system is similar to the MW4:Mercenaries system where you could increase your Armor rating at the expense of tonnage by increasing the amount to certain pieces or evenly distributing you remaining tonnage across your mech.

Now if this system is not in place, then what the **** is wrong with you PGI? But for upgradeable/Additional armor, absolutely not. An Atlas with max armor is scary, but killable. An Atlas with max armor and external armor upgrades? Unkillable.

[Karl Streiger]

well - indifferent - clan mechs can't choose FF or not - almost all ClanMechs but the Hellbringer, Nova and Dire Wolf will get additional armor points - hm NO

about the IS - indifferent- it would make sense to get more armor - for example your Atlas can have 19ton of armor - take IS FF and you still can have 19t but for 12% more protection but without ES you miss 5tons of "offensive" power - could work well for the Atlas - but i can not predict the consequences for medium and light mechs.
A 55t that is faster and more mobile as a Quickdraw using FF would be even tougher.

[VinJade]

the mechs should not have their armor increased because I don't want to end up with lights running around with armor that would once have been for assaults only while Assaults running around with armor that could be seen on drop ships.

because lets face it, if they cave in to this idea it won't stop until this game is no longer BT/MW and just another Japanese knockoff mecha game.

Edited by VinJade, 17 March 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

VinJade, on 17 March 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

the mechs should not have their armor increased because I don't want to end up with lights running around with armor that would once have been for assaults only while Assaults running around with armor that could be seen on drop ships.

because lets face it, if they cave in to this idea it won't stop until this game is no longer BT/MW and just another Japanese knockoff mecha game.

A Jenner would get an extra 5 points to CT, 4 points to STs, and 3 points to limbs out of this deal, and that's if they round up. It would have to give up over half a ton of other things in order to use this extra armor. A STD armor Cicada would still have more armor and internals.

GTFO with your hyperbolic nonsense.

[Karl Streiger]

Kaeb Odellas, on 17 March 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

A Jenner would get an extra 5 points to CT, 4 points to STs, and 3 points to limbs out of this deal, and that's if they round up. It would have to give up over half a ton of other things in order to use this extra armor. A STD armor Cicada would still have more armor and internals.

GTFO with your hyperbolic nonsense.

well in case of the 35-40t gap you are right - but the 55-60ton gap is another story - to have identical armor to a quickdraw would make every 55t build better in all circumstances but for Quirks
When both Mechs have equal quirks you should even today use all the time the 55t Mech
Same in the 75-80t gab - the 75 could do the same as the 80t Mech but more effective. FF armor addition would be a boost to the 75t mech making the 80t obsolete too.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Karl Streiger, on 17 March 2015 - 05:22 AM, said:

well in case of the 35-40t gap you are right - but the 55-60ton gap is another story - to have identical armor to a quickdraw would make every 55t build better in all circumstances but for Quirks
When both Mechs have equal quirks you should even today use all the time the 55t Mech
Same in the 75-80t gab - the 75 could do the same as the 80t Mech but more effective. FF armor addition would be a boost to the 75t mech making the 80t obsolete too.

What are you talking about? There's nothing preventing 60 and 80 ton mechs from using the upgrade as well.

[VinJade]

you are missing his point Kaeb
but I will not even try to explain it as I doubt I can do any better.

Karl would you please expand your explanation?

as to my replies granted I was going overboard but that was the point, when will it stop?
they already upped the armor on all the mechs already and yet people want more, more, more!

I do not want this game to end up becoming another Japanese mecha knock off which if we keep increasing the armor for mechs it will end up like that.

regardless if you want to hear it or believe it I do not want this game to end up too far from BT/MW path and what people are asking for is a slippery slope.

[Kaeb Odellas]

VinJade, on 17 March 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

you are missing his point Kaeb
but I will not even try to explain it as I doubt I can do any better.

Karl would you please expand your explanation?

as to my replies granted I was going overboard but that was the point, when will it stop?
they already upped the armor on all the mechs already and yet people want more, more, more!

I do not want this game to end up becoming another Japanese mecha knock off which if we keep increasing the armor for mechs it will end up like that.

regardless if you want to hear it or believe it I do not want this game to end up too far from BT/MW path and what people are asking for is a slippery slope.

They doubled the armor because they almost every weapons' damage output compared to tabletop. Mechs were dying too fast, even without 3050 era tech.

"I don't like japanese robots" isn't a goddamn argument. Demonstrate that adding bonus max armor to the FF upgrade will lead to that outcome, or drop this line of reasoning.

EDIT: You obviously weren't around during closed beta before they added the DHS, Endo, FF, and Artemis upgrades. Mechs took twice as long to die as they do now and we liked it.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 17 March 2015 - 07:08 AM.

[VinJade]

I never said I don't like Japanese mecha. I own almost all of the Armor core games.

which I will use as an example, I can create a light weight Armor Core unit that can mount a lot more armor than a light mech in BT and it can go as fast as a locust if not faster while still able to mount deadly armament.

Which is what I want to avoid from happening to BT mech as why I said another cheap Japanese mecha knock off game.

did I ever state I was here during closed beta?
no I think not.

however I will grant you the first armor increase however we don't need it now as I don't like the thought of people getting what they want now and then demanding more, more, more! later on which will happen if they get their way now.

after all when will it stop?

Edited by VinJade, 18 March 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

VinJade, on 18 March 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

I never said I don't like Japanese mecha. I own almost all of the Armor core games.

which I will use as an example, I can create a light weight Armor Core unit that can mount a lot more armor than a light mech in BT and it can go as fast as a locust if not faster while still able to mount deadly armament.

Which is what I want to avoid from happening to BT mech as why I said another cheap Japanese mecha knock off game.

did I ever state I was here during closed beta?
no I think not.

however I will grant you the first armor increase however we don't need it now as I don't like the thought of people getting what they want now and then demanding more, more, more! later on which will happen if they get their way now.

after all when will it stop?

Again, please explain to me how a paltry 12% armor increase (that you still have to pay for in tonnage!) will inevitably lead to Armored Core. Using the slippery slope argument without any reasoning to back it up is a logical fallacy.

If you don't like the idea of people getting what they want, what the heck are you doing in the Feature Suggestions forum?

[Astarot]

You guys keep going "TT" this, "TT" that, it honestly made me think many never actually played the table top game.... They are just looking at the stats. There are many rules that haven't been translated at all. For example, where my dice roll that picks where my shots land for me? Or if I out right miss?

You guys are complaining about ****, and demanding that it looks closer like the TT game, but you can't have it like the TT game without it being the table top game....

First, giving FF armor bonus armor amount is stupid. As it introduces power creep. There will be no reason to wear standard armor at all. Not only that, but mechs with extremely high armor ratios will be extremely hard to murder. 20% increase on 60 points of armor, is 12 more points extra armor, Meaning that section can absorb an extra large pulse laser shot and have an extra point left over.

I vote no on this idea.

Of course if you wish to continue this, I suggest balance, how about every 1% point of armor you go over, another critical slot is consumed.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Astarot, on 02 April 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

You guys keep going "TT" this, "TT" that, it honestly made me think many never actually played the table top game.... They are just looking at the stats. There are many rules that haven't been translated at all. For example, where my dice roll that picks where my shots land for me? Or if I out right miss?

You guys are complaining about ****, and demanding that it looks closer like the TT game, but you can't have it like the TT game without it being the table top game....

First, giving FF armor bonus armor amount is stupid. As it introduces power creep. There will be no reason to wear standard armor at all. Not only that, but mechs with extremely high armor ratios will be extremely hard to murder. 20% increase on 60 points of armor, is 12 more points extra armor, Meaning that section can absorb an extra large pulse laser shot and have an extra point left over.

I vote no on this idea.

Of course if you wish to continue this, I suggest balance, how about every 1% point of armor you go over, another critical slot is consumed.

There would still be plenty of reasons to carry standard armor. For one, most mechs simply will not have the room to carry both upgrades, so players still have to make the choice between extra toughness or weight savings for better weapons, cooling, speed, or what have you. Right now, there is no choice. The mechs that can use both would then have to give up FF's weight savings, all for like 5 points of armor per component.

The "power creep" argument is completely ridiculous in the face of clan tech and some of the absolutely bonkers weapons quirks we've seen. Certain mechs have already received toughness quirks far in excess of the paltry 12% boost this change would give to IS mechs. And those quirks don't cost any tonnage.

And obviously this wouldn't apply in full to Clan mechs, who would otherwise receive a 20% boost for just 7 slots.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

No. Make Standard Structure increase internal structure by a certain percentage. Then it makes Ferro relevant indirectly.

[Neput Z34]

Allowing Ferro-Fibrous to increasing maximum armor allocation by +% armor per ton (12% for IS, 20% for Clan). Will marginally benefit IS lights and majorly benefit Clan mechs that are equipped with Endo and FF.
Do we really want Ryokens with +10 leg armor and Mad-Cats with +12 leg armor? The reason why I mention legs is because that is the only place that "reliably" registers damage on those mechs.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 07 May 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

No. Make Standard Structure increase internal structure by a certain percentage. Then it makes Ferro relevant indirectly.

Honestly if the Standard internals get +50% +34% (rounded down to the nearest whole number) HP over current default values ( cockpit excluded) while Endo remains at current values. It may be worth wile to take FF on some of the heavier mechs as a way to save 1-2 tons in weight while increasing your overall HP, aka Structure Tanking / "Haul Tanking".

Edit: After looking over the Structure HP vs. Endo weight savings vs. Armor values per ton, the +50%HP was bit on a silly side especial on the 25, 35, 45, 55, 65... ton mechs, the +34% is a more reasonable number, in my opinion.
While the proposed changes also "buff" the under performing Clan mechs like Nova, Thor, Man O' War. They also benefit Loki, Masakari and Daishi with aproximatly +10, +12 and +14 structure per side torso/ legs, 14, 18 and 21 CT structure respectively.
Then again it's the ECM on Loki and fire power of a Daishi that makes those mechs top tier.

Edited by Neput Z34, 09 May 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[BerserX]

I voted yes, but I would like to suggest that ferro fibrous have a small multiplier instead (like maybe a 1.1 multiplier). Theoretically, If a 1.1 multiplier was implemented, a mech with 50 points of armor on a single component will take 55 points of damage before that portion of armor is eliminated. A multiplier similar to this should not break the game, in terms of existing metas or whatnot, but it will provide some sort of reason to actually use ferro fibrous (other than the fact that your light mech only needs 3-5 slots for weapons, so you might as well throw on ferro fibrous for the extra tonnage that you have no idea how to use without changing your build). This would also keep PGI from having to go against TT canon (aren't the armor values direct from the table top game?).

As a side note, you might consider adding an "other" option to your poll, and ask for feedback regarding this choice. While PGI may not want to implement your exact idea (due to canon restrictions or whatever), there may be others with ideas that can skirt around potential canonical or "game-breaking" issues. I've noticed that this helps to generate some really good ideas for balancing/implementing features, as it did in this poll of mine: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Just a suggestion.