236 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

That Dawg, on 11 March 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Heres my beef about this, according to MY stats (your mileage may vary) am a very solid- average player, it looks like maybe slightly higher than average...

The BEST balance possible would be achieved thru an ELO or MATCHMAKER that worked.
Period. yes, 'balance' is needed, but WHAT a better battle outcome from the SAME amount of ECM on both sides.
Anyone ever drop into a PUG where there are 3-4 ECM's and you have none?
two lances of timberwolves wont help

And heres the clincher, NO ONE is being stopped from getting their own timberwolf.....
they are great mechs, but so are a dozen others- put me into almost any mech, and I kill, I get damage, I profit...

The low talent whiners are largely responsible for the wild nerfs, buffs, ghost heat back and forth attempts to placate the arses posting threads like this by absurd weekend "events" to take our minds off........maps- optimizing game play for mid level computers- new game modes etc etc

Its THOSE mediocre players who think they are getting killed over and over by MechX, then buy one.....and WHAT?? its not good, it needs buffs....

Aside from the obvious trolls these forums have alot of good, accurate comments and insights about gameplay.(I never troll and am always on topic and polite and above all reasonable )

Fact is balance isnt to bad in game at the moment but it isnt there yet, that is for sure.

The top balance problem is the Streak Crow in fact vrs IS lights.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 March 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Sarlic, on 11 March 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

So? That does not make less vomit and dropping HPs over it. Sure, PGI is also at fault using a quirkening scheme while there are better alternative ways. Just because the community thinks vomit =/= balance is not the way to go.

I can only hope PGI encourages more diverse builds insteads of people blatantly dropping HPs for the lelz vomit.

the porblem is if you have like 60 or 90 hp in total it does not care if someone volmits 2x 35PPFLD or of he is using 50 hitscan alphas where 10damage gtes "wasted" by inaccuracy. in both cases you get obliterated in 2 or 3 alphas.

and then it does not care if your HP are 40 or 55,
if your hp are 90 or 120. And so Hp are not as important. because the amount of alphas tisurvve is the same. Thats why some weight classes are naturally "inferior" because they have more HP but this HP is not making the gap to survive another alpha. it simply dies as quick as the mech 15 tons below it. Or even quicker because it may be bigger and more easy to hit.

And so until the high alpha spammability is not changed it is not worth the the few extra HP.

so when you face a FS9 with 8 dpls' that 32 damage.

does it care if your leg on a 50t has 24hp and a max of 48 armor. whats that? 72. he needs then 3 alphas to shoot it off.
but now on a 75t mech? 32+ 64, in worts case, also exactly. 3 alphas. And by this the diference in using all this armor is just very pointless when you face opponents that land their shots. because you do not survive significantly longer.

and the big boys throwing 50ish alphas? same thing: 2 alphas on both mechs to blow a leg off. So point of havign more armor? not much.

The typical alpha values are often (especially with dual gauss) too much the same.

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

Simple, really: MOAR GUNS!!1!

It can have nasty loadouts.

but the worst laodout a mech can have is: being dead

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 March 2015 - 05:15 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

The top balance problem is the Streak Crow in fact vrs IS lights.

Simple fix...give the Streak Crow tack on VCRs like another mech I know ....



J/K! I wouldn't wish that atrocity on any other mech.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Evan20k, on 10 March 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

I'm late to the party on this one. I just purchased my very first timberwolf this morning and I really want to know how people justify to themselves that this thing is at all remotely fair? I feel like I have the agility of a medium and the firepower of a 90ton assault in this thing. Maybe I'm just **** with every other mech I've played in comparison, but this thing feels like it has absolutely no drawbacks in a game where each mech has its own strengths and weaknesses. Do you guys think it will be getting some sort of balance adjustments in the coming months?

The balance adjustments have already happened my friend. Its called quirks. Every mech in the game most likely will get positive quirks, except the TimberWolf. Its a good all around mech for sure, but its more like an over rated swiss army knife, good at everything, master of none.

Once you pilot it for a while, you realize its a great mech, but everyone over rates it.

[operatorZ]

1453 R, on 10 March 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

My main notion was actually to decrease its heat capacity/dissipation by some amount, impacting the heat efficiency of an already hot 'Mech and thus acting to limit the Wolf's engagement times. Either you dumped guns for more heat sinks to keep cool - thus reducing the machine's alpha potential and overall firepower - or you dealt with the decreased combat time afforded by the heat penalties on the Wolf. Which would preserve the machine as the superb striker and hunter-killer it was always supposed to be while forcing its pilots to be more choosy with their shots and engagements both, since it'd be easier to pressure the Wolf into heat troubles and noticeably harder for Wolves to out-and-out brawl well.

When I suggested this though, I was mostly informed that "it's the Summoner's job to be fast and mobile, not the Timber Wolf's!", and "dude, what's wrong with making the Timber Wolf move like a 75-ton 'Mech instead of a giant metal ballerina?!", and the like. Basically, a bunch of "fuqq yer heet nerfs, I want the stupid Timbergod to move like the heavy 'Mech it is!" crap, despite the fact that the Timber Wolf moves exactly like a heavy 'Mech...that just so happens to have a 375XL in it.

Go figure, eh? Put a monster engine in something and it moves like it has a monster engine in it. I mean damn man, that is some trippy non-Euclidean style logic right there...

Hmmmm.....I would actually endorse this idea..IF...clan ballistics could get a little love...like one less round per UAC burst or just finally institute ammo switching.

Some of the disagreement on what "nerfs" people might accept to TBR probably has a lot to do with play styles...and if you lowered heat sinks or heat dissipation this would effectively kill the laser vomit as the go to "meta" TBR build...which I'm not against because I mostly brawl with it and laser vomit = boring easy mode. of course at the same time this would also effect brawlers as well, which might force the mech into a more "hide and snipe" mech, which I dont play much of or want to with TBR....I dunno, its tough...

I guess I vote no TBR nerfs...buff underperforming mechs to achieve balance...which looks like the route they have gone...allthough I was a little disturbed by the Russ comment that "they just choose which ones to buff (quirk) based on amount they are played" really PGI? no metrics at all? nothing? you just buffed the sh*t out of TDR because nobody played it? seems way to simplistic...

[Sjorpha]

That Dawg, on 11 March 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

The BEST balance possible would be achieved thru an ELO or MATCHMAKER that worked.
Period. yes, 'balance' is needed, but WHAT a better battle outcome from the SAME amount of ECM on both sides.
Anyone ever drop into a PUG where there are 3-4 ECM's and you have none?
two lances of timberwolves wont help

And heres the clincher, NO ONE is being stopped from getting their own timberwolf.....
they are great mechs, but so are a dozen others- put me into almost any mech, and I kill, I get damage, I profit...

The low talent whiners are largely responsible for the wild nerfs, buffs, ghost heat back and forth attempts to placate the arses posting threads like this by absurd weekend "events" to take our minds off........maps- optimizing game play for mid level computers- new game modes etc etc

Its THOSE mediocre players who think they are getting killed over and over by MechX, then buy one.....and WHAT?? its not good, it needs buffs....

The main concern, as well as the best evaluation of mechs, over balance comes from the top tier comp players. And at that level there is a very clear understanding of the imbalance between clan and IS, and that this balance is a much more serious concern than ECM.

The picture painted that everyone concerned over balance issues is a noob is a smokescreen to avoid talking about the issues seriously.

There are a number of complaints that really do fit your description, for example complaints about LRMs being OP, and those can be identified easily by the fact that they are only voiced in rants in general discussion, while the real issues are echoed on other sites and forums where people who play at a higher level hang out.

You don't actually need to be a high level player yourself to do this check, but you need to do it to get a picture of how your own experience compares to the evaluation of more competent people and data by checking multiple sources.

Other smokescreens:
"it's not the mech it's the player"
"X is true in my anecdotal example Y and therefore statement Z is false" (often together with cherry picked endgame screenie)
"Mech of type X is used by better players, therefore concern Y is false"
"The REAL problem is [unrelated mechanic X]"
"Lol @ QQing [group who disagrees with you]" (universal defacement strategy that can be used against anyone no matter what they say)
"Comp balance issues only applies to comp games" (there are a few issues that do, and some that works out differently, but most raw evaluations of power level applies just as well in solo pugs as in comps)
"Don't make the game to easy, harden the **** up" (as if making a game more balanced had anything to do with difficulty, and as if hard for one side isn't easy for the other)
"Don't make everything the same!" (as if balance had anything to do with similarity)
"But what about X!1!??" (as if separate issues cancel each other out)

Learn to spot them and dismantle them, in your own posts as well. I accidentally use these fallacies when I'm into it sometimes...

Edited by Sjorpha, 11 March 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[operatorZ]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Aside from the obvious trolls these forums have alot of good, accurate comments and insights about gameplay.(I never troll and am always on topic and polite and above all reasonable )

Fact is balance isnt to bad in game at the moment but it isnt there yet, that is for sure.

The top balance problem is the Streak Crow in fact vrs IS lights.

Yes, as in they aren't effective enough!

but seriously when talking IS lights...they have their own God mech....which is hardly balanced vs. its class...

[Lily from animove]

operatorZ, on 11 March 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

Yes, as in they aren't effective enough!

but seriously when talking IS lights...they have their own God mech....which is hardly balanced vs. its class...

broken hitreg on a mech is not a balance issue thats more a bug issue.

[InspectorG]

Isnt that how the Thud 9S came about...and received its nerf?

Im starting to think another balancing mechanic is needed, like BV or something.

I was also wondering about formulas for Armor hp + Structure hp in relation to mech sillhouette+ surface area.
I think Koniving said chassis and variants should have armor caps just like engine caps.

I mean, the only real way to make each mech equally viable is if they were all exactly the same.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bleary, on 11 March 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

You don't want to balance the game for the majority of its players? I . . .

I mean, I get where you're coming from with this. But when one must choose between "make the game more fun for most people" vs "let competitive groups and those who play the self-described 'only for hardcores' mode have a broader variety of meta builds", I'm not sure the latter can truthfully described as making the game better. The balance might be more real - but if a player doesn't play in a way that lets them see it, then it doesn't actually exist for them. And if it doesn't exist for most of your players, then you're not actually balancing the game.

Sadly, NO.

If we were to "balance" for Solo Queue, LRMs would be like throwing spit wads, because no one knows how to use cover, on average. And individual mechs would get buffs like the TDR-9S which seem ok..... as long as only one of them is on the enemy team. But the moment 2-3 start working together, they control the match. Then you'd just get the tryhards back to trying to syncdrop, to farm PUGlandia.

The issue with balancing a large online game, is you can't do it really for the "masses", because most of the masses, at any game, are just plain BAD, and thus do things they should not, and want anything that killed them nerfed. And you can't really balance according to the "pro" input, because they have a mostly minmax mentality, and 90% of them have no issue with 90% of the options being obsolete, they are going to ride the meta. (Sorry but for "knowing more about the game than filthy casuals, half the pro suggestions on the forums have been myopically shortsighted, too)

So smart balancing is done by observing the Pros, and seeing what they favor, and comparing it to the rest, and slowly, gently tweaking those things into line with the rest, and trying to bring the underperformers up, to. The 1337s always expose what is broken, because that is what they will always use.

Using that info, you balance the game, and it trickles down. Sadly, end of the day, the game the underhive plays will never be truly balanced. No matter whose input you take, but that is because most of them really don't know how to play.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 March 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lily from animove, on 11 March 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

but the worst laodout a mech can have is: being dead

Which is what the mech would excel at making: dead robots.

Quad UAC5s, 4 ERSLs, 675 UAC rounds.

Want typical laservomit? Well, not enough crit slots to do it typically.
Best it can do is perhaps 5 MPLs, LPL, Gauss for a 68 damage alpha, with 18 DHS. Toasty, with a half ton remaining but no crit slots.

Quad ERLL, Gauss(35) and 18DHS fits with both three crit slots remaining, and an entire shield shoulder.

The humanoid hitbox means it will be good for sword and boarding. Saying this mech won't be a powerhouse is pretty ridiculous.

A not-overengined Clam, which also isn't a Whale. While the Timby would be taken for CW attack, this would be taken for defense. 71 is plenty fast to position yourself, while the extra 10 tons of guns means dual or triple ballistics.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Aside from the obvious trolls these forums have alot of good, accurate comments and insights about gameplay.(I never troll and am always on topic and polite and above all reasonable )

Fact is balance isnt to bad in game at the moment but it isnt there yet, that is for sure.

The top balance problem is the Streak Crow in fact vrs IS lights.

Funny, my LCT-1V doesn't have a problem with Streak Crows...

Then again, I don't get with in 400m of them either...

[RedDevil]

I think the iconic mouse ears should be standard on the design, even without missiles in them, but the OCD side of me would cringe at seeing them empty.

[Alek Ituin]

reddevil, on 11 March 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I think the iconic mouse ears should be standard on the design, even without missiles in them, but the OCD side of me would cringe at seeing them empty.

Then those mouse ears should be separate hitboxes as well. Same goes for all large ST missile pods.

[Tuefel Hunden]

We want lore based stuff.... unlesss it means my mech isn't more uber than your mech.

[That Dawg]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Aside from the obvious trolls these forums have alot of good, accurate comments and insights about gameplay..

To be DEAD honest, I have found more relevant info on mechspecs and reddit than I have here.
They police the trolls with a heavy hand- end result? Filtered facts quite useful in my gameplay.

Sjorpha, on 11 March 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

The main concern, as well as the best evaluation of mechs, over balance comes from the top tier comp players. And at that level there is a very clear understanding of the imbalance between clan and IS, and that this balance is a much more serious concern than ECM.

I rarely see top tier players, I rarely drop with more than myself in pugs.
To me, my statements are accurate, and relevant for more than half the player base.

[Kain Demos]

Kilo 40, on 11 March 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

as soon as the Ebon Jaguar shows up, the QQ will shift to that.

Only for about a month and then it will shift to the Arctic Cheetah. I do not know if you have noticed but much like the Hellbringer it is being declared OP before it is even here. I even see it referred to as the "Arctic Cheater" already.

Pre-emptive QQ, the wave of the future. These forums are 96% ****/4% substance at the very best.

[FupDup]

Kain Thul, on 11 March 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Only for about a month and then it will shift to the Arctic Cheetah. I do not know if you have noticed but much like the Hellbringer it is being declared OP before it is even here. I even see it referred to as the "Arctic Cheater" already.

Pre-emptive QQ, the wave of the future. These forums are 96% ****/4% substance at the very best.

I'm the one who invented the Arctic Cheater nickname.

I don't know if it will be quite "overpowered" or not, but the nickname is just based on the high probability of it being a very powerful mech. And I'm okay with it being a good robot, I'd actually prefer it to be good, so that we finally have a solid and effective Clan light to serve as the baseline for balancing the KFX/ADR/MLX against.

Once we have a truly amazing Clan light in the game, people will have a harder time justifying the current state of the existing 3 Clan lights...

Edited by FupDup, 11 March 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Which is what the mech would excel at making: dead robots.

Quad UAC5s, 4 ERSLs, 675 UAC rounds.

Want typical laservomit? Well, not enough crit slots to do it typically.
Best it can do is perhaps 5 MPLs, LPL, Gauss for a 68 damage alpha, with 18 DHS. Toasty, with a half ton remaining but no crit slots.

Quad ERLL, Gauss(35) and 18DHS fits with both three crit slots remaining, and an entire shield shoulder.

The humanoid hitbox means it will be good for sword and boarding. Saying this mech won't be a powerhouse is pretty ridiculous.

A not-overengined Clam, which also isn't a Whale. While the Timby would be taken for CW attack, this would be taken for defense. 71 is plenty fast to position yourself, while the extra 10 tons of guns means dual or triple ballistics.

humaoid hitboxes with bdnly shaped "head" still are an issue, because you can hit from all sides wha is supposed to be the CT, especially when you have a mech like a stalker wiht high mounted Troso hardpoints.

and UAC's are stream weapons so not even that good, because in my tatse to much time to exposure for a mech of that tonnage. It won't be bad, yet not a timber at all or on his level.

but we will see, if it ever comes.

[Deathlike]

Praehotec8, on 11 March 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

1.) Why would doing this to the TW mean it has to be done to others? It is a game, it can be balanced any way needed. There are not hard and fast rules that absolutely cannot be broken. Sorry, but that is a poor argument against the idea.

With that logic, you could always justify a mech should be OP, let alone UP, and keep it that way indefinitely "for reasons".

It's like saying the Awesome should stay large and the Mist Lynx can have ridiculously large arms for its size... and leaving it that way is good for the game. It doesn't work like that and never should be operated under such principles.

Quote

2.) Even IF such a change needed to be done, it would not be the end of the world. I am sure the pods could be quirked as needed to be highly damage resistant to allow people to play hidey-hide if that is what is demanded by the people.

Maybe it isn't the optimal suggestion, but it is hardly worse than a lot of the other ideas on here.

I don't think shooting down the Timberwolf has been predicated on the ears for the most part, so it's probably not the end of the world.

Even then, you're essentially exchanging one problem for another and that doesn't actually solve the issue at hand anyways.

Bad ideas are never the solution to broken problems. They are usually called bandaids.