69 replies to this topic

[N0MAD]

So are you saying that because some other game has a bad MM its ok for MWO to have a bad MM?

[Reitrix]

I must be the only weirdo who only cares about how good the fight was, the win or loss be damned.

[norus]

WoT doesn't have ANY sort of skill based MM. None at all. It literally just puts people together without any thought to skill unless they've changed that in the past few months where I havent played (doubtful). You're literally comparing something with the most rudimentary MM possible to mwo, a game with a flawed elo system that balances teams by throwing absolute newbs to the sharks.. The best part, WoT could have a far superior MM system if they based it on wn8 which is PLAYER MADE and extremely accurate for gauging skill.

The people who whine about WoT MM also aren't good. A single good player there can make far more of a difference than in MWO. A single tank of the right type (say e75, a t9 tank) can literally be undamagable by lower tier tanks and still fight t10s just at a disadvantage. If you get a match where there's only 1 or 2 t9's on each side and rest are t7-8 it is a huge advantage the likes of which mwo has nothing like. The combat system is completely different in that damage is VERY avoidable by using a good tank and having skill. You can't avoid things in MWO at anywhere near the level. In a fraction of a second a laser is on you, you'll lose some armor and it adds up.

[dimachaerus]

So, It's my fault when I am often the only person on my team to break three digits worth of damage, get multiple kills (often the ONLY kills), and do all of this in a Locust, repeatedly?

Yeah, I've watched on spectator cam a lot when I die, and I swear I have NO IDEA how some of these people get enjoyment from playing this game when they are so demonstrably BAD.

Aiming at anywhere other than the enemy thats killing them, ignoring the mech killing them from behind to continue to spam LRM5's at a target in cover 1200m away, spraying the entire enemy mech with their lasers in a zig-zag pattern, firing IS Lrm's at 20 meters at an un-locked target, coming to a full stop while trying to aim at a stationary assault mech (facing away from them) to take off its arm and still missing five consecutive laser alphas. Hell I could go on all night, but you see my point.

Why am -I- being tasked with trying to carry a team of window-licking paint eaters? Is this punishment for killing too many people, or scoring too well? I play this game to have fun, interesting battles, where the teams are evenly matched and the combat is a see-saw of suspense as to who will defeat who. I do not play this game to babysit a bunch of mentally handicapped lemmings and drag them kicking and screaming towards some manner of victory.

What about the match I had just the other day where I killed two Stalkers, a dire whale, and a timberwolf at the very start of the match with my Locust, a full THIRD of the enemy team and ALL of their assualts, and my teammates were still unable to kill a single other enemy mech, or do anything significant to even slow them down on their march towards victory?

I **** you not, none of them even broke 100 damage, "Dire Whales" included (who can do nearly that much with JUST ONE ALPHA).

[N0MAD]

dimachaerus, on 11 March 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

What about the match I had just the other day where I killed two Stalkers, a dire whale, and a timberwolf at the very start of the match with my Locust, a full THIRD of the enemy team and ALL of their assualts, and my teammates were still unable to kill a single other enemy mech, or do anything significant to even slow them down on their march towards victory?

Dude you are so full of sh.t your name should be Toilet..

[Davers]

dimachaerus, on 11 March 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

So, It's my fault when I am often the only person on my team to break three digits worth of damage, get multiple kills (often the ONLY kills), and do all of this in a Locust, repeatedly?

Yeah, I've watched on spectator cam a lot when I die, and I swear I have NO IDEA how some of these people get enjoyment from playing this game when they are so demonstrably BAD.

Aiming at anywhere other than the enemy thats killing them, ignoring the mech killing them from behind to continue to spam LRM5's at a target in cover 1200m away, spraying the entire enemy mech with their lasers in a zig-zag pattern, firing IS Lrm's at 20 meters at an un-locked target, coming to a full stop while trying to aim at a stationary assault mech (facing away from them) to take off its arm and still missing five consecutive laser alphas. Hell I could go on all night, but you see my point.

Why am -I- being tasked with trying to carry a team of window-licking paint eaters? Is this punishment for killing too many people, or scoring too well? I play this game to have fun, interesting battles, where the teams are evenly matched and the combat is a see-saw of suspense as to who will defeat who. I do not play this game to babysit a bunch of mentally handicapped lemmings and drag them kicking and screaming towards some manner of victory.

What about the match I had just the other day where I killed two Stalkers, a dire whale, and a timberwolf at the very start of the match with my Locust, a full THIRD of the enemy team and ALL of their assualts, and my teammates were still unable to kill a single other enemy mech, or do anything significant to even slow them down on their march towards victory?

I **** you not, none of them even broke 100 damage, "Dire Whales" included (who can do nearly that much with JUST ONE ALPHA).

I am totally sure you solo'd all those mechs.

Even if 100% true, it only proves that there were bad pilots on both teams.

[Ted Wayz]

My issue with matchmaker is that it is inconsistent, or maybe too consistent. I have had streaks of 17 straight losses. And it is not unusual for the wins and losses to come in streaks of six or seven. This would suggest that the matchmaking system contains bias and given certain conditions you will end up always on a good team or always on a bad team.

It would also help if the matchmaker would balance players who frequently disconnect. Place one player on each side so one side is not penalized. Disconnects are a big factor in wins and losses.

[dimachaerus]

Davers, on 11 March 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

I am totally sure you solo'd all those mechs.

Even if 100% true, it only proves that there were bad pilots on both teams.

N0MAD, on 11 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

Dude you are so full of sh.t your name should be Toilet..

I'm not saying there weren't bad players on both teams, but I'm not bullshitting at all, locust with 6 medium lasers can core an assault from behind shockingly fast and runs at 169, so I just bee-line straight for a flank on the enemy spawn at the start of the match to catch assaults alone behind the pack. First kill was the Dire just past their spawn who couldn't turn fast enough to keep his back away from me, then the first stalker who at least TRIED to turn around and fire back but when he couldn't get a bead on me just stood still and died, the next stalker was absorbed with firing his Lurms, and the Timby was busily dismantling one of my teammates in a Thunderbolt. I was then blindsides by a steak-crow and legged, which does not end well for a locust. The three guys in the assaults were all bad, and the timby may not have noticed in time I guess, but jesus, it was essentially 11v8 and my team didn't manage to even kill a SINGLE enemy mech? How else can you explain it other than them being totally clueless.

I really wish I had a screenshot, but at the time I was too pissed to even think of it. This sort of thing happens all the time too, which is what boggles my mind. They REALLY need to re-work this ELO crap they have going on so that we have less of "Bads getting constantly rolled" and more "people fighting others of their own skill level".

[Davers]

dimachaerus, on 11 March 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

I'm not saying there weren't bad players on both teams, but I'm not bullshitting at all, locust with 6 medium lasers can core an assault from behind shockingly fast and runs at 169, so I just bee-line straight for a flank on the enemy spawn at the start of the match to catch assaults alone behind the pack. First kill was the Dire just past their spawn who couldn't turn fast enough to keep his back away from me, then the first stalker who at least TRIED to turn around and fire back but when he couldn't get a bead on me just stood still and died, the next stalker was absorbed with firing his Lurms, and the Timby was busily dismantling one of my teammates in a Thunderbolt. I was then blindsides by a steak-crow and legged, which does not end well for a locust. The three guys in the assaults were all bad, and the timby may not have noticed in time I guess, but jesus, it was essentially 11v8 and my team didn't manage to even kill a SINGLE enemy mech? How else can you explain it other than them being totally clueless.

I really wish I had a screenshot, but at the time I was too pissed to even think of it. This sort of thing happens all the time too, which is what boggles my mind. They REALLY need to re-work this ELO crap they have going on so that we have less of "Bads getting constantly rolled" and more "people fighting others of their own skill level".

I once had a 1000 damage loss with no kills and no assists in a Centurion where my entire team did 50-100 damage each. It really doesn't prove anything though. You can't just point out one exceptional game (either bad or good) and draw global conclusions from it. I have close to a 1-1 W/L, and I would say that more often than not I feel my matches are good and balanced. Even most of the 'stomps' I've been in have resulted from the enemy having superior tactics and positioning, not because my team mates were bad.

[LordKnightFandragon]

norus, on 11 March 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

WoT doesn't have ANY sort of skill based MM. None at all. It literally just puts people together without any thought to skill unless they've changed that in the past few months where I havent played (doubtful). You're literally comparing something with the most rudimentary MM possible to mwo, a game with a flawed elo system that balances teams by throwing absolute newbs to the sharks.. The best part, WoT could have a far superior MM system if they based it on wn8 which is PLAYER MADE and extremely accurate for gauging skill.

The people who whine about WoT MM also aren't good. A single good player there can make far more of a difference than in MWO. A single tank of the right type (say e75, a t9 tank) can literally be undamagable by lower tier tanks and still fight t10s just at a disadvantage. If you get a match where there's only 1 or 2 t9's on each side and rest are t7-8 it is a huge advantage the likes of which mwo has nothing like. The combat system is completely different in that damage is VERY avoidable by using a good tank and having skill. You can't avoid things in MWO at anywhere near the level. In a fraction of a second a laser is on you, you'll lose some armor and it adds up.

WoT MM places people in a Q based on keeping you around a 50% win rate. Note, that even the 0/0 XVm reds have a somewhere around 47-50% win rate. Some are lower, but most are right around a 47-50%.

Now, take note on the better players, how most are 51-53%. If they are higher, they play in Clan wars, which if your clan is big enough and pwoerful enough, your always on the defense, firing gold ammo, and cant really win. It basically inflates your stats. BUt if you pug 100% of the time, most players have between a 47-53% win rate. The MM deliberately works to keep everyone around that win rate.

Also, play 100 games, take note on the MM, if you have XVM this is alot clearer. But in those 100 games, you will win 5, having stacked teams that you cant possibly lose, your side is 6 unicums, 5 greens a few yellows and maybe 1 irrelevant red in a low tier arty or something. Against 9 reds, 2 yellows and maybe a few oranges, and your own RNG seems to be spot on, you cant miss, you pen alot, you get damage rolls.

Then, take note on your next 5 games, 2 might be about even, about 3 greens on both sides, an even mix of good and bad, you might win 2/5 you might lose 2/5..its a crap shoot. Now, if you happen to win a few more, take note of your next 10 games, your side WILL be absolutely useless, it will be yourside with gobs of reds and bads against yellows, greens and unicums, games will end so fast it will amaze you, and in the end, if your a good player, after 20 games, you might be 12/8, or just above 50%, if your a scrub bad, you will probably be 9/11 or so. And the more you play and win or do well, the worse the teams will get until you have a horrid streak of 10 games.

And after 2000 games, you will have about a 49-51% win rate.

TLDR: Wot uses a skill based MM, its just not the kind you and I and most people think of as a Skill based MM.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 11 March 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[dimachaerus]

Davers, on 11 March 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

I once had a 1000 damage loss with no kills and no assists in a Centurion where my entire team did 50-100 damage each. It really doesn't prove anything though. You can't just point out one exceptional game (either bad or good) and draw global conclusions from it. I have close to a 1-1 W/L, and I would say that more often than not I feel my matches are good and balanced. Even most of the 'stomps' I've been in have resulted from the enemy having superior tactics and positioning, not because my team mates were bad.

The thing is though, that this is an every-single-day occurrence. I know we tend to remember bad things more than good, but I've been trying hard lately to stay objective about it, and it sure feels like the more I kick ass, the more i get lumped in with people who I will then have to compensate for, instead of rely on. I wish the devs would come out and explain exactly how the MM works and how this ELO crap gets computed so I could at least understand why I so often get the shaft.

This is all in the single drop pug queue by the way, group queue is a whole other kettle of fish, where your little two man will get put with several other two mans, against a ten man. Which isn't necessarily going to mean a loss (because lets face it, some people, even in a big group are still just BAD), but more often than not it's a bad day for you and your buddy.

[Davers]

dimachaerus, on 11 March 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

The thing is though, that this is an every-single-day occurrence. I know we tend to remember bad things more than good, but I've been trying hard lately to stay objective about it, and it sure feels like the more I kick ass, the more i get lumped in with people who I will then have to compensate for, instead of rely on. I wish the devs would come out and explain exactly how the MM works and how this ELO crap gets computed so I could at least understand why I so often get the shaft.

This is all in the single drop pug queue by the way, group queue is a whole other kettle of fish, where your little two man will get put with several other two mans, against a ten man. Which isn't necessarily going to mean a loss (because lets face it, some people, even in a big group are still just BAD), but more often than not it's a bad day for you and your buddy.

They have though.

It starts with one player. Then the MM tries to pull in 23 other players with similar Elo, compensating for the various hard and soft caps (such as 3/3/3/3 (soft cap) and no more than 4 of any weight class (hard cap)). It specifically does NOT do what people claim it does- specifically put a good player on a bad team and expect them to carry. The only time it does something similar to that is when one of the 'handful' (PGI's word) of high Elo players are looking for a group- there just isn't enough of them on at any given time to reliably match them against each other.

[SilentWolff]

Hans Von Lohman, on 11 March 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

This quote is taken directly from another forum...for world of tanks. Yes, I did edit it to refer to MWO instead of world of tanks.

Something tells me that matchmaking is hard, MWO is probably decent at it, and complaining is just part of the forums. I have a hard time listening to the people who have issues with Match Making around here.
In fact, I would say we have about the same level of complaining about match making as World of Tanks or League of Legends.

Says the low ELO peasant

[Tarogato]

For the record, I complain about the matchmaker a lot. But I don't complain because I can't win, I complain because there are people in my games that aren't remotely near my skill level. I don't care if they drag my team down or drag down the enemy team, the fact of the matter is that they get into my matches at all hours of the day and it's really disappointing that this can happen. I never had this problem with League of Legends.

If it's because I'm in the top 2% Elo of players and I'm doomed to never having enough people online at my skill level period... fine. I can handle that. But I seriously... seriously... seriously doubt that that is the case. I think I'd already know if it were.

[1453 R]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

For the record, I complain about the matchmaker a lot. But I don't complain because I can't win, I complain because there are people in my games that aren't remotely near my skill level. I don't care if they drag my team down or drag down the enemy team, the fact of the matter is that they get into my matches at all hours of the day and it's really disappointing that this can happen. I never had this problem with League of Legends.

If it's because I'm in the top 2% Elo of players and I'm doomed to never having enough people online at my skill level period... fine. I can handle that. But I seriously... seriously... seriously doubt that that is the case. I think I'd already know if it were.

League of Legends also has more players than there are actual living human beings in the world and s'far as I know (I'm one of about eleven people total on the planet who has never and will never play the damn thing), they all play in the same bucket, without things like game mode votes or weight class balancing.

If MWO had ten hundred thousand million players on at any given time, then yes, its Elo matching would be significantly smoother.

[Escef]

Iskareot, on 11 March 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

NOW THEN.. on a side note I dont know if we have the population for that anymore. I keep seeing the same guys in some drops and that is a scary thing... seeing the same 24 people over and over in drops is not a good thing really.

Thankfully, I don't see you often. I'd get tired of watching you rant and rave about how you died and it was the rest of the team's fault for not being psychically linked to you so we know when you need help, since you are allergic to text or voice chat until AFTER you are dead.

BTW, I was streaming the last match I saw you in, I can highlight your temper tantrum if you like.

[MadMaxMKII]

the problem in team based games is often, that the individual is searching for mistake rather by him/herself but by the rest of the team. it is easy to complain about others but hard to be open for criticism. i experience this sometimes on myself, i am complaining about the bad team performance, but when i think about it i often find the reasons for my failure in my own actions.

[N0MAD]

vamrat, on 11 March 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Now, in MWO, I have killed an Atlas in a Locust.

The way networking and hit detection works in this game i would be far more impressed if you killed a Locust with an Atlas..

[Davers]

1453 R, on 11 March 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

League of Legends also has more players than there are actual living human beings in the world and s'far as I know (I'm one of about eleven people total on the planet who has never and will never play the damn thing), they all play in the same bucket, without things like game mode votes or weight class balancing.

If MWO had ten hundred thousand million players on at any given time, then yes, its Elo matching would be significantly smoother.

Even LoL has to relax it's MM and allow people from different tiers into the same game.

But the nice thing about being able to look up anyone's stats at any given time has it's benefits. I saw a thread once, another 'I am a good player who gets stuck with bad teams'. But then this Diamond player comes along and took the time to look up the posters stats and analyze them. He straight up showed the guy he wasn't a 'good player'- bad buys, bad masteries, and bad CS- and that was on a Champion that is really good at CS. But once he cut past the guys misconceptions and BS, he was able to show him how to actually improve.

[Nik Reaper]

MadMaxMKII, on 11 March 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

the problem in team based games is often, that the individual is searching for mistake rather by him/herself but by the rest of the team. it is easy to complain about others but hard to be open for criticism. i experience this sometimes on myself, i am complaining about the bad team performance, but when i think about it i often find the reasons for my failure in my own actions.

True, but that is not what is being discussed as the main point here, you can spectate someone and see just why that game will not end well .

More so the real thing most are interested in is why do we even have a system that trys to keep you at 50/50, now don't get me wrong , I'm not asking for a chance to repitedly euthanize the braindead so my w/l would sky rocket, but why is it so much to ask that we separate players based on elo and w/l and match them against each other? The only practical reason , for now, is the player population of specific values is not enough , so we might have too many of ones and not enough of the others , but doesn't WoT have very high player populations and even they still seems to just mix players of every kind of stat.