347 replies to this topic

[PewPew]

.... a better mouse may very well give you a serious advantage.... but theres nothing the game developers can do about it.

sorry but if you cant tell the difference between a paintjob and a superior mech, im not going to bother responding to you anymore.

signing out until later

[Melcyna]

And thus it was settled LONG ago,

the only complaint left now is that some ppl consider ANY advantage at all including boost as too much advantage.

Wake up ppl, F2P in western been surviving this far with the mechanism including boost for half a decade or more...

[Stray Ion]

Melcyna, on 30 June 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

And thus it was settled LONG ago,

the only complaint left now is that some ppl consider ANY advantage at all including boost as too much advantage.

Wake up ppl, F2P in western been surviving this far with the mechanism including boost for half a decade or more...

Not to mention pay to play games switching to free to play.

[Savageson]

Eh, I've never been much of RP guy for Bt. Since I think alot of the book stuff is a little silly besides the mech and style of each house/clan. I mean just because some one follows an honorable way of doing things does not mean that they would go full ****** when fighting a war...which is what it feels like happens in BT.

Back to the point thou.
http://penny-arcade....ode/power-creep

This is an interesting argument when you consider Bosters in games. Since I was looking on sarna for the BV of mechs.

http://www.sarna.net...f_%28Mad_Cat%29 ----------- BV 2,737

vs.

http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29 ------------ BV 1,897

If i can with Cbill booster get to clan tech faster, which I want in the game and in accordance to table top power levels. If i can buy enough cbills or be flowing into them to buy a timby when its released, then repair it so i can pilot it like 80% + of the time, does that count as P2W even if you can do the same over time slowly with Cbills. Since I feel that is where the argument actually runs on into and maybe the biggest fear? We already have superior gear that is lore correct and is also the mechs I want to pilot since I started my BT love with mechwarrior 2, wolf all the way.

Edited by Savageson, 30 June 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Elizander]

Ubertron X, on 30 June 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Easy rule: Everything that is not helping me winning my current match is not P2W.

So special ammunition, weapons or mechs only available via cash is clearly P2W.

Premium accounts granting C-bill and/or XP boost are clearly not P2W. They can however be misused as an indirect P2W if for example one can not afford to buy or maintain a XL reactor without the appropriate premium account. So the game devs need to tread lightly here.

This is what I have been thinking about lately. If, and only if, they somewhat follow the system where I need to use 'something' to farm in order to power up my 'main pimped out ride', the only way to do it without tiers (meaning use sucky tank to power uber tank) is through tech levels. I've been posting about how I assume using old tech will be cheaper on repairs so that I can earn C-bills faster and if this is the case maintaining a mech with full XL/ER/Ultra/LBX/Endo/Fero/Streak/etc will be very expensive and possibly drive you into the red in terms of gains if you play poorly.

Note that I'm not trying to put anything in a bad light but while waiting I do enjoy wondering what possible gameplay systems might be in place based on what we know and what other games have.

Savageson, on 30 June 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

If i can with Cbill booster get to clan tech faster, which I want in the game and in accordance to table top power levels. If i can buy enough cbills or be flowing into them to buy a timby when its released, then repair it so i can pilot it like 80% + of the time, does that count as P2W even if you can do the same over time slowly with Cbills. Since I feel that is where the argument actually runs on into and maybe the biggest fear? We already have superior gear that is lore correct and is also the mechs I want to pilot since I started my BT love with mechwarrior 2, wolf all the way.

It would depend on a lot of things, but I think the frequency of how often you can use your ubermech compared to your farm mech. Given the C-bill advantages of a paid user and the skills of your average player (they are the one who will praise/complain the most since they are the majority), how many more times non-paying users have to take out their base tech Catapult for a spin in order to get their quad Clan ER PPC Masakari out of the garage for one game compared to a paying premium + premium mech user will determine how big or small the complaints will be (and there will always be complaints).

I also intend to play this game using a free account (different one) just to see the difference for myself.

Edited by Elizander, 30 June 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[Stray Ion]

Savageson, on 30 June 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Eh, I've never been much of RP guy for Bt. Since I think alot of the book stuff is a little silly besides the mech and style of each house/clan. I mean just because some one follows an honorable way of doing things does not mean that they would go full ****** when fighting a war...which is what it feels like happens in BT.

Back to the point thou.
http://penny-arcade....ode/power-creep

This is an interesting argument when you consider Bosters in games. Since I was looking on sarna for the BV of mechs.

http://www.sarna.net...f_%28Mad_Cat%29 ----------- BV 2,737

vs.

http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29 ------------ BV 1,897

If i can with Cbill booster get to clan tech faster, which I want in the game and in accordance to table top power levels. If i can buy enough cbills or be flowing into them to buy a timby when its released, then repair it so i can pilot it like 80% + of the time, does that count as P2W even if you can do the same over time slowly with Cbills. Since I feel that is where the argument actually runs on into and maybe the biggest fear? We already have superior gear that is lore correct and is also the mechs I want to pilot since I started my BT love with mechwarrior 2, wolf all the way.

I watched the power creep vid, Who is to say that clan tech will even be introduced? It could be the PvE content they said might come about in the future. There is definite power creep with clan tech. Though it was somewhat balanced due to more heat generate or different cycle rates. Then again I am speaking of what I know from previous MW games and have no idea how it will behave here if it is added.

Look what has been done to lasers which are no longer burst fire.

I shouldn't have to state that by the timeline clans arrive next year, you probably know that. That should give pure F2P players enough time to save up.

As for using your MadCat 80% of the time, I don't think that would be possible no matter how much money you have. My reasoning for this is in one of the "complaining" threads about the cost of the legendary founders pack it was stated that having 4 mechs means you will always have one ready to go into battle with. I can only conclude that not only repairs cost cbills but take 45 minutes as well as a match lasts 15 minutes max.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

PewPew, I honestly cannot tell if you're trying to stir up trouble or are this shortsighted.

The reward they are giving players to support the game are an increase in XP gain for that specific 'mech through the subscription (which is temporary and requires renewal, which also gives unknown benefits that can be attained by anyone paying or not) along with the associated +50% C-Bill bonus which can be stacked on top of the permanent +25% C-Bill bonus of the founder 'mech.

But lets understand what that means. Yes you will be able to purchase more ammo, or additional 'mechs, but you can only pilot a single 'mech at a time so that dozen extra 'mechs you have in your hanger gives you zero advantage over another opponent in the field. You may be able to buy a hundred more medium or large lasers but your 'mech cannot carry more than what a weight limit dictates. You may gain a potential +75% more C-Bills per mission/game but if you are simply bad at the game, 0 earned C-Bills +75% bonus is still zero.

By paying money, you are given more options with what to bring into combat (and a new paint job!), but every medium laser at the end of a day is a medium laser. That new 'mech you paid for is just the same as any other 'mech another player earned by playing. I can't remember the last time I was ever killed in a game because a player had a more stylish paintjob than me so I can rest easy in that regard.
Ultimately, paying money does not give a player power in game. You cannot buy the skills required to kill your opponent.

Let me repeat that. You can spend a million dollars in the game and your 'mech will still have no tactical advantage in game over another. You cannot buy the skills to win a game.

[phelan]

Voted no. Encouraged to see that ~94% of our forum users feel similarly.

[Big Jim]

ManDaisy, on 30 June 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Anyone consider that there might be some kind of conspiracy by other parties to slander MWO in order to protect their current player base?

With all the WoT references and the many other F2P games whose business models force you to purchase or lag behind the pack, I have to say that I think you are on to something there. MWO is going to be huge judging from the last set of forum stats posted by Steel Dominion. I mean over $600k in founder's packs in 24 hours and over $1 million worth of founder's packs sold overall tells me that a lot of people are dying to get back into their 'mechs. It is going to leave a lot of other games low with low server populations. I know that I have stopped all other MMOs so I can save up for MWO.

[John Kerensky]

Ubertron X, on 30 June 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Easy rule: Everything that is not helping me winning my current match is not P2W.

So special ammunition, weapons or mechs only available via cash is clearly P2W.

Premium accounts granting C-bill and/or XP boost are clearly not P2W. They can however be misused as an indirect P2W if for example one can not afford to buy or maintain a XL reactor without the appropriate premium account. So the game devs need to tread lightly here.

You realize XL Engines have game-play draw-backs, too, right? It is not just slap it on and win. I detest IS XL Engines (I kind of hope it's easy to tell who is using them so I can focus on a side torso =P). I hope they make Clan XL Engines even more expensive to offset the durability advantage over IS XL.

You can build perfectly solid BattleMechs without XL Engines.

As has been said time and time again, money will not buy you tactical proficiency. The skills of the player and team are the ultimate factors in victory.

The people voting "yes" are either trolling or being far too literal; boosts save grind-time, nothing more.

[Melcyna]

Big Jim, on 30 June 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

With all the WoT references and the many other F2P games whose business models force you to purchase or lag behind the pack, I have to say that I think you are on to something there. MWO is going to be huge judging from the last set of forum stats posted by Steel Dominion. I mean over $600k in founder's packs in 24 hours and over $1 million worth of founder's packs sold overall tells me that a lot of people are dying to get back into their 'mechs. It is going to leave a lot of other games low with low server populations. I know that I have stopped all other MMOs so I can save up for MWO.

WoT doesn't quite understand the difference between eastern F2P and western F2P...

it's primary strength that allowed it to grow thus far in the western side stems from the primary fact that there's nothing else currently that cater to that sort of gameplay.

But how long they believe that can hold is up to anyone's guess... for now at least there's no one else to shake the foundation, just yet... something MWO and several other games are set to change soon.

Whether they like it or not, eventually they'll understand that western F2P have a different set of preference... and direct combat advantage like gold shell is not part of the list that are accepted in the western, booster on the other hand is accepted so far in western F2P.

Edited by Melcyna, 30 June 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[PewPew]

mwhighlander, perhaps you don't understand how developers who care about balance acrually balance games. the idea is to isolate the variable they're trying to assess. since this is impossible, they have to use statistical analysis. in either case, mentioning variances in player skill is pointless since it's already assumed that anything we're calling an advantage here already considers an average player skill.

[Elizander]

PewPew, on 30 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

mwhighlander, perhaps you don't understand how developers who care about balance acrually balance games. the idea is to isolate the variable they're trying to assess. since this is impossible, they have to use statistical analysis. in either case, mentioning variances in player skill is pointless since it's already assumed that anything we're calling an advantage here already considers an average player skill.

PewPew, I thought you already went to bed!

[Draco Argentum]

trycksh0t, on 30 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

IGC boosts could only be considered P2W if there were incredibly superior items that cost an insane amount of IGC (So much that not using a boost meant you would never afford it).

Not enough people are picking up on this dictinction. If a boost was large enough it could be pay to win. MWO seems to be using small boosts so I don't think it'll be a problem here but the blanket statement that boosts aren't p2w is very short sighted.

[PewPew]

Draco that's what I mean. We have no basis to really say for sure whether the percentages we see will translate into something significant but its a fair assumption that it is indeed significant if they're charging money for it. otherwise people wont pay for it except out of their goodwill to PGI... which we know isn't sustainable.

I guess I'll sleep now haha. im tired of explaining the value of time, ceteris paribus, and statistical significances. I just can't believe these people wouldn't care for a 25 percent raise.

[Cirran]

Hmmm, just waded through 8 pages of this thread. I have few thoughts.
1: what is "win" in Pay to Win? Is it making money to fix, research and pimp out your mechs, or is it killing all of the guys on the other team, or maybe researching new skills to use or perhaps it is buying and researching all the mechs in the game?

2:You take person A and person B. They both are absolutely horrible at the game. They both average a win every 7 fights. One buys premium and Legendary, the other does not. They both play 100 games. Who has the advantage at 100 games? It is going to cost money to buy, repair, and resupply our mechs. Does person A or B have an advantage when it come down to having to do that?

3: I know that the devs have stated that every mech in the game can hurt every other mech in the game. Can hurt does not mean will hurt. If money is based on performance then I can see the founder's deals being pay to win. What mech will the non paying members start with? Can they get an Awesome right at the start? I am guessing that is not gonna happen. I am guessing they will be in a light. Super easy to leg a light. Just gotta hit them and it really is not that hard to do. LOL, I dont see them makeing the Locust or any of the other super fast mechs into T-50-2s.

4: Skill trumps all, except when your team gets run over by a better team.

Personally I am not worried about blantant obvious Pay to Win. I am much more concerned about the below the radar stuff that is really difficult to catch untill it becomes a major issue in game.

As always this is my opinion and it is no better or worse than anyone elses.

Thank you for your time.

Cirran DeCours
One Happy Chien

[Melcyna]

Draco Argentum, on 30 June 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Not enough people are picking up on this dictinction. If a boost was large enough it could be pay to win. MWO seems to be using small boosts so I don't think it'll be a problem here but the blanket statement that boosts aren't p2w is very short sighted.

Of which the reverse can be applied as well...

But to correct the conception,

this is not actually accurate:

Quote

If a boost was large enough it could be pay to win

The more accurate assessment is on how much the credit/gold/time sink is in the game that the player have to spend to reach competitive level or what not.

it does not matter AT ALL if the boost is 1000% of the Cbills income if the amount of Cbills needed to buy vital gear or what not (if any are required AT ALL, since mech presumably already come with all it's base variant weapon and equipment anyway) are so small that players will acquire it in no time anyway.

The key part there is not what the boost amount is... rather it's how much the player is expected to work towards it normally, and if it's nominal enough then no matter how big the boost is, it's irrelevant since ppl will have it in no time at all boost or no boost.

The reverse is true, if the work required for player to achieve that level is so massive, and the boost doesn't give much of an increment on the progress rate there then the boost is also irrelevant.

The last combination is if the work required is massive, AND the boost is also massive then indeed we have come to the P2Win territory.

Edited by Melcyna, 01 July 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[Bobthebarbar]

matux, on 30 June 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Paying for economic boost is not a bad thing, i would really hate this game to turn into a system where there are some items that can only be brought and not buying puts you at a disadvantage. e.g clan er lasers are brought with real money only.

oh that would really tick me off. i hope nothing is like that, and from the sounds of it it won't be. but you never know.

[Antaumus]

No way is it p2w, the idea of f2p is time vs money. Have time? spend time. Have money? spend money. There should be nothing you can't buy with time that you can buy with money, other than cosmetic things. Skins, hula girls, fuzzy dice make them money only. That is what every good f2p game does and MWO will do as well I can't see PGI doing anything else.

Boosts do nothing you can't do with time, 25% more c-bills? play for 25% longer, 25% more xp? play for 25% longer. Want a new mech play games till you can afford it or buy it with money, there is no paying to win, it's just time v money.

Play to win is 5% more damage, 5% more armor, etc if that happens plz QQ, winge, cry, moan, complain, *insert more words here* all you want, but it won't.

[Zack Delphirian]

Nope, no, nada, niet, nein, non !

Etymologicaly, Pay-2-Win means that if you pay, you win. By definition, gaining more XP and C-Bills has no impact on gameplay.
Sure, we founders will have access to more mechs at launch and probably to more weapons, so more tactical diversity, but although this might be true for the first months of the game, everything will be the same in say a year when even the free players will have catch on us in the XP and C-bills department.

Those guys don't understand that games are made by people that, surprisingly enough, need to get paid in order to eat, have a home, paying for kids and wives, and also computers. They probably think that the games come magicaly out of the sky carried by pigeons or something. I hate these people