66 replies to this topic

[Cptn Goodvibes Pig of Steel]

YCSLiesmith, on 14 March 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Not really. LRMs are trash for the reasons i mentioned, and no one in CW uses them. Really there isn't a great place for spotters in this game, but if you DO want to be a scout, be a scout sniper. If you're getting in close to multiple enemies or using tag you are exposed and will soon die. if you're poptarting over a hill that only you can reach and you've got ECM up and are prepared to book it as soon as they start returning fire, you'll be in a position to help your team and do damage both.

G'day,


It pretty much depends upon what your views are on the role of a "forward observer" and what is that of a "sniper". To me, both are specialist occupations, to which I concede, both could be combined, especially in MWO. We both agree that a pure "forward observer" mech would be limited in the game, apart from maybe community warfare, where you drop with four mechs. My concern is that when the actions of sniping and observing are combined, whether undertaking one role will seriously damage or impact upon the successful functioning of the other role?

My basis of using a lighter, under armed mech, stems from precedence of WW2 combat. In this conflict, if forward observers were placed in a vehicle, it was usual practice to use a half track or jeep, not a gun tank. Even when a tank was used, like in NW Europe 1944/45, it was common to use a M5 Stuart with the turret removed. From what I've read, there was a valid concern that the completion of a successful reconnaissance mission was occasionally compromised by direct combat when a fully armed gun tank or armoured car was used. There is the temptation to use the heavy armament, even when a successful mission, means to silently observe and report. Even when a forward observer is on foot in the front line with the infantry, he's not normally armed with a bazooka, heavy machine gun or sniper rifle. His role is to observe and report on the enemy, not to fire upon them or give his position away by doing this.

However, we are talking about MWO and maybe the sniper can be used. After all, a good sniper normally relocates to another preplanned position after firing. Is all a matter of perspective and probably no right or wrong answer to this.


Regards,

Draughluin

Edited by Draughluin, 14 March 2015 - 11:30 PM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"I think that building bad habits early because they work for now is a good way to gimp your ability to get skillful later in teh game. LRMs and LRM spotting both have a low skill ceiling and most of the skills you gain from doing them well are actually detrimental to your ability to grow as a useful mech pilot with decent weapons"

I disagree. LRM spotting teaches scouts to hold locks, call targets and communicate with the main body. That's always good thing. I fail to see how any of that develops bad habits. I agree with you(?) and others that scouts need to put damage downrange, but I think those that sell the other scout roles short just don't appreciate the power they have, because they've been doing it wrong.

Plus, the game is in constant flux. There's a high probability that the devs will look at how MWO is not scout-friendly and make some adjustments, with maybe larger maps or random drop zones.

[YCSLiesmith]

Fenrisulvyn, on 15 March 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

"I think that building bad habits early because they work for now is a good way to gimp your ability to get skillful later in teh game. LRMs and LRM spotting both have a low skill ceiling and most of the skills you gain from doing them well are actually detrimental to your ability to grow as a useful mech pilot with decent weapons"

I disagree. LRM spotting teaches scouts to hold locks, call targets and communicate with the main body. That's always good thing. I fail to see how any of that develops bad habits. I agree with you(?) and others that scouts need to put damage downrange, but I think those that sell the other scout roles short just don't appreciate the power they have, because they've been doing it wrong.

Plus, the game is in constant flux. There's a high probability that the devs will look at how MWO is not scout-friendly and make some adjustments, with maybe larger maps or random drop zones.

LRM teaches to hold locks and call targets, but so does every other weapon in the game. Being in a unit teaches that. LRMs also teach cowardice, hanging back, poor maneuvering, and blind firing rather than careful target selection (you can't target legs or an open side torso or something with LRMs. Further, since your numbers will go down at first when you switch to a real weapon, you'll feel real pressure to not switch to a real weapon.

Also the game might be in constant flux but those times when LRMs were strong, the game was unplayable garbage. They are not a good weapon for this type of game. Unfun, garbage damage, noob trap weapons. Don't use them, don't encourage others to use them. instead, encourage players to use gauss rifles, arguably the best weapon in the game and certainly the best ballistic, or PPCs/erlls/etc. for sniping.

The devs may decide that the game is not scout friendly but that will hopefully not lead to changing LRMs to be strong. Instead I'd like to see more map mobility for light mechs, lots of spaces that lights can creep off into and that they can ambush from.

[CruiseMissileCowboy]

Light scout mechs have to be used as follows:

Long Range Solo scouting: scout from range, do not get close, be sure to run like hell if more than one target heads for you. Fit long range weapons if you want to scout and snipe from a far.
Groups of lights don't really scout, their primary purpose is to find isolated targets, and gang up on them. Groups of lights also work with Assaults, when the fight is engaged, fast scouts get to the sides and behind engaged targets to cripple or destroy weak rear armor.

Be sure to force yourself to hit and run and repeat.
If you get in a death circle with another light, you've made a mistake, but it happens.
If you are just out in front of your group, looking for targets, you will get focus fired and dead fast.

[YCSLiesmith]

it's generally better to target legs than rear armor when you're mauling a group of assaults, because everyone can focus down one assault's legs from all angles while circling him, while only a few people can target the rear torso. if you have ten guys focusing on a leg, it doesn't matter that the leg has more armor than a rear CT, it's gonna go down quick. even better, you can pull back and let the other assaults leave the legged one behind if you're not in a position to kill it, meaning that unless the player is smart enough to eject, he might as well be sitting out the whole round.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"LRMs also teach cowardice, hanging back, poor maneuvering, and blind firing rather than careful target selection (you can't target legs or an open side torso or something with LRMs. Further, since your numbers will go down at first when you switch to a real weapon, you'll feel real pressure to not switch to a real weapon."


I think you've conflated LRM boating with spotting for LRM boats. I can understand why you don't like LRMs (although there is no such thing as "cowardice" in a video game) but I think you're marginalizing what scouts can do because you don't like some of the weapons they are spotting for. Indirect fire is part of the game, and its useful for scouts to know how to spot them. Esp for newer players - I don't know how long its been since you were in the Novice Tier, but LRMs are very prevalent there and are usually the new scout's first encounter with the scout's spotting role.

Also consider that, while your way to learn the game may have worked for you, it may not for him. There are several ways to get there from here.

[YCSLiesmith]

Fenrisulvyn, on 16 March 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

"LRMs also teach cowardice, hanging back, poor maneuvering, and blind firing rather than careful target selection (you can't target legs or an open side torso or something with LRMs. Further, since your numbers will go down at first when you switch to a real weapon, you'll feel real pressure to not switch to a real weapon."


I think you've conflated LRM boating with spotting for LRM boats. I can understand why you don't like LRMs (although there is no such thing as "cowardice" in a video game) but I think you're marginalizing what scouts can do because you don't like some of the weapons they are spotting for. Indirect fire is part of the game, and its useful for scouts to know how to spot them. Esp for newer players - I don't know how long its been since you were in the Novice Tier, but LRMs are very prevalent there and are usually the new scout's first encounter with the scout's spotting role.

Also consider that, while your way to learn the game may have worked for you, it may not for him. There are several ways to get there from here.

by cowardice i mean an irrational aversion to taking damage or putting your mech at risk, rather than approaching hit points as a resource that you manage carefully to achieve your goals, just like ammo or heat or anything else.