74 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

Nascar is basically only on the small maps, like River City, or caustic where the center ridge ring is one of maybe 2 viable battle positions on the whole map.
Nascar started, when we crammed 12 mechs per team into these maps. It was increased in viability when we got bigger and bigger alpha strikes and JJ nerfs.

Returning SOME of the maps to 8 vs 8 would remedy most of this phenomenon.

[Escef]

Eldagore, on 15 March 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Nascar started, when we crammed 12 mechs per team into these maps. It was increased in viability when we got bigger and bigger alpha strikes and JJ nerfs.

What it started with is Skirmish. You don't generally see this crud in Assault or Conquest. Defense turrets stop it from happening in Assault, and if you tried it in Conquest you'd find yourself losing on points. People don't want to admit that the biggest cause is the game mode itself. The community pleaded and begged for Skirmish, and it has turned out to be even worse than I expected it to be. Well, we got what was asked for, and I'm not the least bit surprised that it has turned out the way it has.

Edited by Escef, 15 March 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Jman5]

Goose, on 14 March 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

Why do people insist joining a group is a cure-all? It's groups that want to NASdeathCARball …

And all the un-fun games had by "teams" of mis-matched Elos …

OP wants his 11 teammates to play a certain way, but random strangers play differently. It seems logical that the solution is to play with a premade group that aligns with your playstyle every time instead of just dice rolling in the solo queue.

Escef, on 15 March 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

What it started with is Skirmish. You don't generally see this crud in Assault or Conquest. Defense turrets stop it from happening in Assault, and if you tried it in Conquest you'd find yourself losing on points. People don't want to admit that the biggest cause is the game mode itself. The community pleaded and begged for Skirmish, and it has turned out to be even worse than I expected it to be. Well, we got what was asked for, and I'm not the least bit surprised that it has turned out the way it has.

I 100% agree that skirmish mode encourages this type of play style, which is why I can't understand why people insist on playing skirmish if they hate NASCAR. I keep conquest and assault unchecked and my search times are still reasonable.

Assault is the perfect game mode for people like OP. Spawns are close together, Flanking is reduced, turrets will target mechs for you that are sneaking around in your back line.

Edited by Jman5, 15 March 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[PurpleNinja]

Nascar meta...

I don't even know what's the point of this discussion.

[Hit the Deck]

Escef, on 15 March 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

I don't care how you justify it, it's a bunch of people that are afraid to fight logging into a war game. If you don't want to fight than don't log into a game that involves shooting at the opponent. May I recommend Tetris?

It's not justification.

Because of the simple fact that it (they) just happens regularly, there's must be a reason behind it and I was just telling you my theory. Think about it for a second, in PUG games there's usually no communication so people just default to something intutive, which is, for example, NASCARing and staying at the base on River City Assault.

[Zordicron]

Escef, on 15 March 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

What it started with is Skirmish. You don't generally see this crud in Assault or Conquest. Defense turrets stop it from happening in Assault, and if you tried it in Conquest you'd find yourself losing on points. People don't want to admit that the biggest cause is the game mode itself. The community pleaded and begged for Skirmish, and it has turned out to be even worse than I expected it to be. Well, we got what was asked for, and I'm not the least bit surprised that it has turned out the way it has.

Eh, assault mode on these same small maps turns into campfest also. So while it isnt Nascar, it still adversly affects movment. People camp, because the map is too small to provide a flanking path between the enemy turrets at bas and the 12 mechs looking to blow you to pieces.

Say what you will about game modes and whatnot, in 8 vs 8 there was a lot more ability to flank an enemy without getting instaganked on these smaller maps, even when the turrets etc didnt exist yet.

I am not going into conquest, because PUGLAND conquest is Cat Herding Level: MASTER.

In short, IMO the game as a whole would be improved if they spent some time scaling team size to each map. River City, heck 6 vs 6 would be enjoyable IMO. Leave the 12 player teams for Tourmaline and Alpine etc.

[Escef]

Hit the Deck, on 15 March 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

It's not justification.

Because of the simple fact that it (they) just happens regularly, there's must be a reason behind it and I was just telling you my theory. Think about it for a second, in PUG games there's usually no communication so people just default to something intutive, which is, for example, NASCARing and staying at the base on River City Assault.

It's a lack of trust more than anything else, and that's been an issue in the solo queue for as long as I've been in the game (fairly early in open Beta). No one says much of anything in chat, newer players are lost, next thing they know they get isolated because either they wandered somewhere alone that they really shouldn't have, or they had someone with them that took off after 15-30 seconds and went into a questionable area thinking they still had backup. People have been left high and dry too many times to trust other players. And they get really timid, because they think if they try to be the tip of the spear that they are just going to get gunned to bits for no benefit. No one supports anyone else, because they can't trust anyone to support them. Just today I started following a Victor on an early flank, figured a Vic and a Battlemaster together can do some serious damage to people if we back each other up... It was in Canyon Network, after about 250 meters he jump jets up a sheer cliff and runs off, leaving me isolated. Almost half the enemy team spots me and I barely made it back to friendlies, was down to around 45%. And you see that a lot, and that's why people don't trust others in the solo queue.

Me? I tend to play really aggressively. Most times I do ok, sometimes I get wrecked, sometimes I own faces. I've learned that I can't trust solo teammates to back me up, but I know nothing's going to improve on that front if I stop trying. More than once I've told a player that looked unsure that if he pushed I was following. And sometimes that's all it takes to get a tidal wave of iron moving, two guys moving up and everyone else wanting a piece of the action.

Eldagore, on 15 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Eh, assault mode on these same small maps turns into campfest also. So while it isnt Nascar, it still adversly affects movment. People camp, because the map is too small to provide a flanking path between the enemy turrets at bas and the 12 mechs looking to blow you to pieces.

Say what you will about game modes and whatnot, in 8 vs 8 there was a lot more ability to flank an enemy without getting instaganked on these smaller maps, even when the turrets etc didnt exist yet.

Depends on the map. On the smaller maps, turrets have enough range to cover a LOT of real estate. And if the base/spawn placement is bad (cough*rivercity*cough) it does turn into a campfest. Sadly, most of these maps have viable flanking routes, it's just that nobody wants to use them. I remember when the ridge of hills running along the 2/3-line in Caustic Valley was sometimes used to cover an early base rush. It's still there, still great cover, but almost no one uses it anymore, because when the base turrets first came in early base rushes became a lot less viable. And many of the current players don't have that experience to draw on at all.

Eldagore, on 15 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I am not going into conquest, because PUGLAND conquest is Cat Herding Level: MASTER.

In short, IMO the game as a whole would be improved if they spent some time scaling team size to each map. River City, heck 6 vs 6 would be enjoyable IMO. Leave the 12 player teams for Tourmaline and Alpine etc.

I've found Conquest to be the most enjoyable game mode, especially now. Node placement is usually reasonable, they can be de-capped/flipped fast enough by 1 or 2 mechs, you pretty much need to fight to win, camping isn't an option, and both long range support and brawlers have a home. The only problem is that a lot of players seem to not want to deal with just how dynamic it is, so few perhaps a quarter of the server population seems to leave it checked. I swear, Conquest is the best kept "open secret" in this game.

Anyway, I do have to agree that a lot of the early maps are too congested for 12 v 12. I'd gladly see River City, Caustic Valley, and Forest Colony all changed to 8 v 8 (with 2/2/2/2 instead of 3/3/3/3). Frozen City is one of the few early maps that handles 12 v 12 well enough (though I'd love to see the lower spawn point moved further out, and something done to make the frozen bay more attractive).

[Thorqemada]

"Conquest" (but not on Alpine) is the best mode and has the best matches - though imho Nascar comes probably from the Mech design that is often focussed on the right side of a Mech and makes moving counterclockwise favourable as weapons are easier to bring into use and also many maps be to small forcing any movement into a Nascar circle if its not "Assault" aka WWI.

Edited by Thorqemada, 15 March 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[TB Freelancer]

I'm not poor and stupid enough to do NASCAR, and I never will be!
-Eric Cartman

Edited by TB Freelancer, 15 March 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[Escef]

Thorqemada, on 15 March 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

"Conquest" (but not on Alpine) is the best mode and has the best matches...

Even on Alpine it's pretty good. The original node locations were pretty horrid thoough. Right now Alpine Conquest has a node where each assault base would be, and 3 clustered within 1.5 km of each other about 2/3rds of the way from assault's lower spawn and the H10 hill, and no one starts with any nodes captured. I've had some great fights on Alpine in Conquest.

[Hit the Deck]

Escef, on 15 March 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

It's a lack of trust more than anything else, and that's been an issue in the solo queue for as long as I've been in the game (fairly early in open Beta).
.
.
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And you see that a lot, and that's why people don't trust others in the solo queue.

That's me back in October-November when I started playing. I was often found doing some "aggresive" moves which of course failed because I didn't say a thing and no one followed me. It's rage inducing and I thought that a lot of people are just a bunch of cowards.

It took me some time to recognize a certain pattern of player flow on each map and nowadays I just follow it. Only when an opportunity presents itself, I may do something different to take the chance.

[Koniks]

If you hate a particular strategy or way of playing a map, I recommend communicating with your team.

I've gotten sick of the Terra Therma center rush. Particularly if I'm stuck with the f6 and e7 entrances. But I've had a few matches where asking the team to hold another position worked when it was communicated early enough. Even despite having a teammate complaining about our lack of courage, intestinal fortitude, and/or genitals. Even despite losing a teammate who insisted on needlessly poking and got LRM'd to death. We were more patient and won.

And I'll occasionally do the same on Alpine or Viridian Bog when the highest-ground strategies get old.

There are plenty of places on the BESM maps to form a firing line or counter-push into the front or center of the enemy line without going all ourouboros.

Edited by Mizeur, 15 March 2015 - 09:32 PM.

[fat4eyes]

I can't believe people are complaining that players actually move during combat now. Have you people forgotten the hill humping and poptart meta already, and how boring that was? MWO PUGs have finally discovered maneuver warfare and try to flank and destroy the enemy in detail and you guys want to return to trench warfare? Be thankful that you don't have to stare at walls and hill slopes for a majority of matches anymore.

Besides there's an easy counter to NASCAR. The slower mechs stand and fight if they're caught, while the faster mechs cross the center and flank the enemy as they get bogged down fighting the assaults. Happens all the time in caustic and river city, even in PUGs.

[Greenjulius]

The problem I see is utter disregard for slow assaults, allowing them to be overrun by the entire enemy team. It halves your firepower fairly quickly when you lose a Dire or two. I simply don't play my slow mechs anymore because I frequently find that the unwashed masses like to abandon anything that can't run 70kph.

[luxebo]

I miss Circus Maximus. Glad it's back.

...not. What a terrible mode no offense to the work to create such.