75 replies to this topic

[Clint Steel]

Just watched this video

It seems to me that LRMs are the "Nube Tube" of MWO.

In the video they say that "Nube Tubes" are a necessity in games like COD, to allow the low skilled to compete with the "Elite" players. Now, with a perfect ELO system this shouldn't apply to MWO, but we all know Match Maker isn't perfect.

I've often stated my hate for this weapon system, but maybe there is a place for it here.

LRMs are a great way to get some damage out, and maybe even get a kill or 2, when you otherwise can't control your Mech effectively, due to you having trouble aiming, walking and just generally getting familiar with the controls.

The problem I have is that currently LRMs are not a great stepping stone to other, more effective (less irritating) weapon systems. This is because there is a steep transition between LRMing and shooting. What LRMing does help you learn is keeping up with team, which is how you get comfortable controlling your Mech. Beyond this though, there there is little that LRMing teaches you, and its ease can keep you from transition to other weapons systems that are more skill based(difficult to use) but are more effective.

So, I think this is (further) reasoning to justify a LRM mechanic rework. The mechanic should start pretty easy, but require skills that are comparable to "shooting" to get the most out of them. Making them a stepping stone to more effective weapons.

[CyclonerM]

Why not making them a bit more "effective" instead of making them stepping stones to "more effective" weapons? Do they not deserve to be effective weapons on their own right? Poor LRMs...

[Weeny Machine]

Yes and no.
If there is no ECM and the map is LRM Valley (Caustic), then yes, it is all too easy.
However, if there is ECM involved and you need your TAG...things get interesting. In general though I find laser vomitting easier. If you want to max. your LRM damage you need to position yourself appropiately e.g. about 500m near your targets so they have less time to react, fire from angles which give them less cover, or assist an engaged comrade. Using lasers...well, just push the triggerThe harcounter ECM should be reduced to a softcounter and the indirect fire ability of LRMs somewhat nerfed. At the same time the direct damage potential should be increased.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 15 March 2015 - 08:32 AM.

[Triordinant]

LRMs are in fact the noob tubes of MWO. Just spectate some folks and you'll see that the aiming skills some of us take for granted are sorely lacking in some players -including some who've been playing for a year or more. On the plus side, players with old PCs, bad ISPs or who have an injury or disability also benefit from LRMs so they aren't left out.

[Felbombling]

Give spotters something to do... give a Mech using TAG for other LRM boats 50% of their damage, but don't let them fire their own weapons. Give indirect LRM flights a fairly high arc of fire but speed them up, so that players can use LRMs against direct line of sight targets effectively... say the same speed as an AC/10 or something. Then players could use LRMs as a direct fire weapon or as an indirect weapon with the aid of another player. I think that would be a perfect use of them.

[Bulletsponge0]

LRMs are easy to use, but very hard to use effectively...

LRMs span the range of skill like no other weapon



Edited for spelling

Edited by Bulletsponge0, 15 March 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Raven-kell]

Lrms are as skilled as any other weapon in the game. You are clicking a button on a PC. This endless whining about lrms, dont stand in the open? Shoot down the UAV spotting you? Have an ecm mech near? Have some long range weapons?

[JediPanther]

Lrms are not noob tubes. I've been using them constantly since closed beta with the catapults. There are a lot of things that impact lrms like nerfs or buffs in each patch, changes in the lrm travel speed or missle arch, your range from target etc. The hardest thing about lrms is all the ecm mechs now in the game. Sure there are ways past ecm like spoters,tag and narc but if you play as a dedicated lrm pilot you can't depend on them. I find myself using my C1's lasers far more than the lrms themsevles to the pont I can down grade my lrm 15s to 10s or 5s.

I find lrms mostly used as a psychological weapon more than any thing else. It is the only weapon in the game where not only do you get a big ass huge flashing sign in your face telling you to find cover but you have the audio warning as well. Just imagine if clan acs had that happen how horrible a weapon system that would be. the big ass warning is only good because it doesn't tell you if it is a single lrm 5 or some one runing a troll lrm 80 alpha C4 hence where the psycholicical use of it comes in.

[Alistair Winter]

Kind of, but consistently doing well with LRMs requires some very good awareness and ability to read the battlefield. Any random nube in an LRM boat basically depends on his team to do well against better players. It's not like the actual nube tube where you can take out a better player if you're lucky. If you're not good and you don't have a team to support you, you'll most likely find yourself out of position and eaten by Locusts.

The nube tube argument is not a good reason to keep LRMs the way they are now. If AC20's were similar to the nube tube, then that would be kind of acceptable to me, although ideally I don't want any weapon to fit the 'nube tube' description. But when all LRM-weapons are effectively nube tubes, it just means that you've taken a major weapon group in the game and effectively removed it from play among skilled players. This, in turn, reduces the complexity of the game and results in a lot of laserboats and ballistic boats, with a few scattered SRM boats here and there.

[Sorbic]

Clint Steel, on 15 March 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Just watched this video

It seems to me that LRMs are the "Nube Tube" of MWO.

In the video they say that "Nube Tubes" are a necessity in games like COD, to allow the low skilled to compete with the "Elite" players. Now, with a perfect ELO system this shouldn't apply to MWO, but we all know Match Maker isn't perfect.

I've often stated my hate for this weapon system, but maybe there is a place for it here.

LRMs are a great way to get some damage out, and maybe even get a kill or 2, when you otherwise can't control your Mech effectively, due to you having trouble aiming, walking and just generally getting familiar with the controls.

The problem I have is that currently LRMs are not a great stepping stone to other, more effective (less irritating) weapon systems. This is because there is a steep transition between LRMing and shooting. What LRMing does help you learn is keeping up with team, which is how you get comfortable controlling your Mech. Beyond this though, there there is little that LRMing teaches you, and its ease can keep you from transition to other weapons systems that are more skill based(difficult to use) but are more effective.

So, I think this is (further) reasoning to justify a LRM mechanic rework. The mechanic should start pretty easy, but require skills that are comparable to "shooting" to get the most out of them. Making them a stepping stone to more effective weapons.

I'm sorry but this is just an frustration driven narrow view. Using LRM's effectively is much harder than pointing a freaking dot at someone and pressing a button. I'm sorry you have issues with LRM's but that doesn't make them noobtubes. "there is little "LRMing teaches you..." as opposed to firing all the lasers? Most LRM'ers have secondary weapons and use them as effectively as you use your point and clicks. The good ones have also learned positioning, suppressing single tube fire, predicting enemy movement, when to locate the enemy via AMS fire, lockless firing for those folks who pop in and out quickly, using TAG or the slowest weapon in the game, narc combined with UAV's to help counter ECM, when to stagger lrms to blind/shake the enemy and when to drop them all on their head... Please don't pretend that the other weapon systems (maybe gauss) are harder to use effectively.

It is true that they can work better than point n clicks for players with really bad ping/fps but that's not a user issue. Plus you don't tend to see those folks doing all that well with LRMs as they are still suffering from delayed input.

I use point n clicks a majority of the time but I don't pretend they are harder to use than LRMs.

[FupDup]

The thing with Lurms is that they are fairly easy to use, but on the flipside they're also easier to counter/avoid most of the time.

[Bishop Steiner]

CyclonerM, on 15 March 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Why not making them a bit more "effective" instead of making them stepping stones to "more effective" weapons? Do they not deserve to be effective weapons on their own right? Poor LRMs...

truth is they can be effective, even against good players..if they are not solely what you rely on. Problem is more the minmax mentality of the game, and that mso tLRM players just want to boat them from cover...which only really works against noobs.

I have severañl mechs that have always run 1-2 medium sized racks, and be very effective, even against top tier players. But that is because they are only PART of the strategy. More useful at midrange and LoS than long range, etc. But also gives many of my mechs an opportunity to damage opponents I don't yet have LoS on, chase off probing lights and cause other mechs to reconsider their position.

As a straight killing weapon, their utility is limited. As a tactical tool they are rather useful, unless you are facing zergrushing comp teams.

I would say High Elo team vs High Elo team, they are essentialyl worthless.

[SilentWolff]

Clint Steel, on 15 March 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Just watched this video

It seems to me that LRMs are the "Nube Tube" of MWO.

In the video they say that "Nube Tubes" are a necessity in games like COD, to allow the low skilled to compete with the "Elite" players.

Lol, if your using LRM's against "elite" players, you may be doing alot of things, but competing wont be one of them.

[Vassago Rain]

Extra credits are idiots, and don't know what they're talking about.

No, LRMs aren't the MWO equivalent to the n00b tube, because LRMs are bad, and don't really do anything. Our version is red smoke, but it's heavily limited to one per mech, once per match.

[Weeny Machine]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 March 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

truth is they can be effective, even against good players..if they are not solely what you rely on.  Problem is more the minmax mentality of the game, and that mso tLRM players just want to boat them from cover...which only really works against noobs.

I have severañl mechs that have always run 1-2 medium sized racks, and be very effective, even against top tier players.  But that is because they are only PART of the strategy.  More useful at midrange and LoS than long range, etc.  But also gives many of my mechs an opportunity to damage opponents I don't yet have LoS on, chase off probing lights and cause other mechs to reconsider their position.  

As a straight killing weapon, their utility is limited.  As a tactical tool they are rather useful, unless you are facing zergrushing comp teams.  

I would say High Elo team vs High Elo team, they are essentialyl worthless.

I agree and disagree. I agree with your boating comment. On the  other hand I see mechs like the Trebuchet. The missile ammo wasn't buffed when the armour was increased. Now you have to invest in extra ammo or the main weapons systems which take up the vast majority of your tonnage gets worthless in record time. How do you want to fit in secondary weaponry systems here. Sorry, but like so many things in this game it is again a design blunter

Edited by Bush Hopper, 15 March 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[InspectorG]

Bulletsponge0, on 15 March 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

LRMs are easy to use, but very hard to use effectively...

LRMs span the range of skill like no other weapon



Edited for spelling

^Truth.

I cant get LRM to work for the life of me. They seem to be such a waste time-wise. Time for a target to lock and flight time. No thanks.

[Rossario x Vampire]

Bulletsponge0, on 15 March 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

LRMs are easy to use, but very hard to use effectively...

60Lurmlander and 100LRM Stalker beat that statement in any dimention.

[Abisha]

LRM is nothing like a "nube tube" if you think it is, you missing a fundamental game element.

this whole idea of balance skill vs power is ridiculous a true skill player will always be better not because of the weapons or ability's.

[Taemien]

Here's the issues that LRMs (and streaks) have. I'm going to list them in Pros and Cons. Though these are pros and cons that give the system issues. I'm not listing ALL pros and cons to the weapons sytem, only the ones that give it the problems it has. All weapons have pros and cons that are inherent to give them the flavor and for balance. LRMs are no different.

First the Pros.

Only weapon system in the game that can be fired on a player, and hit from behind cover, without really anything needed cept a friendly targeting the target.

Now the Cons.

Negated by ECM.
Requires a target to lock.
Has a warning to the target.

Now.. let me explain why these things are bad for LRMs and keep them in the state they are in.

First we'll start with the from cover lock. This is a Very powerful feature. And because of how good it is and how easy it is to setup. It has to have a counter. That counter is you have to maintain the target the entire time. As well as ECM, and a variety of other things working against the weapon system.

Next ECM. There is no other weapon system in the game shut out by pieces of equipment.

Requires a lock. No other weapon systems require a target. Lasers and Ballistics and SRMs can just fire. I've noticed this is really Annoying when using LRMs against people using ER Large Lasers. They don't have ECM. But they can hit me because they can see me. I can't hit back because they aren't close enough for sensors (even with modules) to pick them up.

Warning to the target. This is almost a Pro that works against the system. Now most of the time when you hear the warning, you don't have much time to react. Sometimes you do. But that's not why I list this. The reason I've brought this up is because the warning is what makes most people hate the LRM system. Even when LRMs weren't even viable (did too little damage) at one point. People were still making posts about how they hated them. Its the warning they hate. Not the damage. So that causes alot of nerf/getridofitall posts.

Changes I would make to LRMs. These changes would make them more skillful to use. And still provide their lore based benefits through team actions:

ECM no longer counters LRMs. It will provide defense against LRMs, but not like it does now. I'll get into those defenses soon.

No longer requires a target to lock. Locking is achieved by putting the reticle over the enemy mech. This means smaller mechs, speed of target, and distance is Now a factor in getting missile locks. You no longer can rely on a large red box to get the lock you need. It also means you need Line of Sight to lock. I would consider making the locks take a little less time to achieve to balance this. ECM would increase the lock time, but not prevent it.

Warning to the target... I would change this much. Simply because players need to deal with it. And some players mount LRM5s to distract their foes with missile alarms.

Narc and TAG. Targets narc'd or tag provide a special box that allow you to lock on to these targets. This would be pretty much the only way to fire beyond Line of Sight. This way if you wish to fire indirectly, you need to have someone on your team supporting your build to do so (or do the narcing yourself and hide).

ECM would negate Narc in this situation. But not TAG.

Issues with this is that it no longer follows the lore that LRMs can be fired indirectly with a simple spotter. How I would fix this is possibly give LRM equipped mechs a toggle function that allows the LRMs to go into indirect mode. What happens here is they cannot lock, but on your radar it shows about where they will hit. Of course to hit an enemy you will need someone to target them so they show up on the radar (aka spotter). It would be very hard to hit moving targets with this.. but due to all the modifiers used in the TT game for this mode of fire.. it would balance out between MWO and TT.

It would also give LRMs a utility to break up campers a bit, much like Arty and Airstrikes do.. albeit less damage of course.

[Vassago Rain]

Abisha, on 15 March 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

LRM is nothing like a "nube tube" if you think it is, you missing a fundamental game element.

this whole idea of balance skill vs power is ridiculous a true skill player will always be better not because of the weapons or ability's.

Extra credits are ridiculous, and don't know what they're talking about. They had an episode on fighting games, where they said the only way to make fighting games accessible to casuals is to remove all the fighting game elements, like inputs and resource management.

People who link extra credits are just as bad as the guys making the show.