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Missile Interception


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Poll: Missile Interception (35 member(s) have cast votes)

Should we be able to intercept incoming LRMs with direct fire?

  1. NO! (20 votes [55.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.56%

  2. Yes but with MGs only (3 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  3. Yes but with all ballistics (1 votes [2.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.78%

  4. Yes but with lasers only (1 votes [2.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.78%

  5. Yes with all weapons (11 votes [30.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.56%

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#1 Striker2237

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 10:15 PM

So I have been playing more than normal recently and got to thinking that it's odd how when a bunch of LRMs start flying about that some people, on both teams, fire lasers and the like at them. Almost as if they are hoping that they can destroy a few of them before they get hit.......

Anyway myself and good number of people I see in randoms will fire on LRMs flying toward them, even though we know it wont do anything. I'm not doing this because I'm stupid, its just a reaction when I see a swarm headed my way. To me it makes no sense how a knee jerk reaction to try to shoot them down is useless, when its something that you naturally try to do without thinking.

This made me wonder.....why can't we use our direct fire guns to try and intercept some of the incoming missiles before they hit us? Now being able to take them all down would be game breaking, but at the very least It would give some meaning to carrying a lone MG or two.

From a development perspective this should be possible because AMS can hit them so it should be possible to code in that ability in for other weapons too. Would be interesting to have 8 MG novas running around with the main group doing nothing but intercepting.......give scouts something to do too when pinned down as well.

Vote and chime in with that you guys think please!

Edited by Striker2237, 16 March 2015 - 12:31 AM.


#2 VinJade

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 12:53 AM

there are way to many ways to avoid LRMs as it is.
ECM is a major counter to the LRMs
AMS with a group of mechs with one or two AMS each and you are looking at a massively reduced amount of missiles.
and Finding cover will easily help avoid missile damage.

do not need any more ways of of hampering LRM boats than what they already are.

if anything we need to reduce AC 2 over powered shaking that it does.

#3 Striker2237

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 01:20 AM

Problem is it takes 7 AMS to stop just ONE LRM20 salvo and a good bit of mechs can't mount even two AMS.......I figured in light of this the ability to use ballistics to intercept would be a fair compromise.

Edited by Striker2237, 16 March 2015 - 01:21 AM.


#4 VinJade

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:12 AM

actually it isn't fair. LRM users already have to put up with what I already stated above.
being a missile boat I get rocked by enemy LRMs as well and then there are other machines that can disrupt LRM locks and waste ammo such as the over powered AC 2s shaking.

and then there is the fact many mount mainly energy weapons which will never run out of ammunition while LRM & S/SRMs will.
you could have a thousand+ of rounds for LRMs but with the loss of target locks after being fired can cause the missiles to miss.

and hiding behind hills and other things such as buildings will protect you from LRMs.

however in the end just refer to what I stated in my last post why this would just more or less make Missiles useless and LRMs are already weak as hell.

#5 DeRazer

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:29 AM

Many good points raised already, but from a pure immersion point of view it would be great to be able to do this.

I think you should permit all weapons to do it as they all have their issues anyway...

Ballistics or PPC - only going to hit one or two.. LBX might be fun though..
MGs - timing critical as range is so low.
Lasers - well, good luck holding those on target for even the full second necessary to take one out.

However, I think you would need to
a) Increased LRM speed - something that I think should be done anyway! But in this case "cruising speed" would need to be a lot higher.
B) Allow "flat" trajectories for Artemis launchers where you have the line of sight+ lock. Much harder to hit something coming straight at you. Also "dumb" firing of LRMs in a straight line with Artemis LRMs.
c) Slight buffs to damage AND splash damage/impulse radius (though splash damage can be very low). Missiles that get through should do damage/impulse even if they hit the floor nearby.
d) Activate the (planned I think)XP rewards for normal AMS to increase incentives to use them.


This might also serve to improve those horrible games where one team gets all the ECM and/or LRMs.



#6 Egomane

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:30 AM

View PostStriker2237, on 16 March 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

Problem is it takes 7 AMS to stop just ONE LRM20 salvo

How did you get to this number?

But let us humor it:
- 1 LRM-20 (IS, as a clan one shoots in waves and two AMS can neutralize it) weighs 10 tons. At least a half ton of ammo for the LRM, makes for a total of 10.5 tons, 7 critical slots and some heat.
- 7 AMS, each with half a ton of ammo, makes a total of 7 tons of equipment with 14 critical slots and no heat. With plenty of ammo left to counter several other LRM launchers.

A difference in favor of the AMS by 3.5 tons, a whole third of the launcher, with plenty of ammo to spare. In favor of the LRM launcher are the critical slots used, but this is quickly neutralized once you get into mechs with more then a single AMSor when you start to consider that the LRM mech has several tons of ammo. When you realize that your half ton of ammo on all your AMS system can neutralize up to 6 tons of LRM ammo of the single launcher, you will notice that the LRM start to get into a very bad position in tonnage and critical slots against your defense.

If you want immunity from LRM you either be able to counter them with your own skills at the use of movement, terrain and equipment (including that of your teammates), or be prepared to invest some tonnage and space into it. The LRM user had to invest heavily in tonnage and space as well.

#7 Gladewolf

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:22 AM

....When I actually see 7 mechs on a team all mounting AMS....we can discuss what AMS can or can't do. I know for a fact it only takes 2 to stop lrm 5 spam. Problem is, very few people actually mount AMS at all.

#8 Twilight Fenrir

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:26 AM

This exact topic has been raised before... I think with identical pole options, too :P

Either way, it is an emphatic YES!

Just pure immersion, I want to be able to turn my machine gun boat skywards and trim off the missles coming for me. Obviously my gauss, AC, and PPC aren't going to be worth the attempt... But if I've got MGs, or lasers, it would be worth my time. Especially in a light mech.

People talk about LRMs as the 'noob' weapon, requiring no skill... But that really isn't true. It's only easy when there are skill less pilots to take advantage of. (or skilled ones who just get screwed by random luck.... Or LRM 100s :P)

I really grew to appreciate their use over this last event, as the only 'special' heavy I have is my Founder's Catapult. It requires a different skill set to be sure, but it definitely still requires skill to be an effective missle mech.

So, I can appreciate that the boaters don't want yet more ways to defeat their attacks... But it really is something that needs to happen. I doubt it would make that much difference strategically, but it would make a world of difference for fun. To feel like a badass as flame blossoms in the air while you wail away impotently before getting smacked in the face :P

Go ahead and give a (small) buff to LRMs to compensate... Missle speed would be a great, and logical one. I don't think there are many things that could stay airborn at the speeds at which they travel in-game...

The missles should have a certain amount of HP when it comes to lasers...it should take more than an instant of contact with a small laser to take one out... But MGs and LBX should be able to do it on-contact...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 16 March 2015 - 06:28 AM.


#9 Striker2237

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:36 AM

View PostEgomane, on 16 March 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

How did you get to this number?

But let us humor it:
- 1 LRM-20 (IS, as a clan one shoots in waves and two AMS can neutralize it) weighs 10 tons. At least a half ton of ammo for the LRM, makes for a total of 10.5 tons, 7 critical slots and some heat.
- 7 AMS, each with half a ton of ammo, makes a total of 7 tons of equipment with 14 critical slots and no heat. With plenty of ammo left to counter several other LRM launchers.

A difference in favor of the AMS by 3.5 tons, a whole third of the launcher, with plenty of ammo to spare. In favor of the LRM launcher are the critical slots used, but this is quickly neutralized once you get into mechs with more then a single AMSor when you start to consider that the LRM mech has several tons of ammo. When you realize that your half ton of ammo on all your AMS system can neutralize up to 6 tons of LRM ammo of the single launcher, you will notice that the LRM start to get into a very bad position in tonnage and critical slots against your defense.

If you want immunity from LRM you either be able to counter them with your own skills at the use of movement, terrain and equipment (including that of your teammates), or be prepared to invest some tonnage and space into it. The LRM user had to invest heavily in tonnage and space as well.

View PostVinJade, on 16 March 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

actually it isn't fair. LRM users already have to put up with what I already stated above.
being a missile boat I get rocked by enemy LRMs as well and then there are other machines that can disrupt LRM locks and waste ammo such as the over powered AC 2s shaking.

and then there is the fact many mount mainly energy weapons which will never run out of ammunition while LRM & S/SRMs will.
you could have a thousand+ of rounds for LRMs but with the loss of target locks after being fired can cause the missiles to miss.

and hiding behind hills and other things such as buildings will protect you from LRMs.

however in the end just refer to what I stated in my last post why this would just more or less make Missiles useless and LRMs are already weak as hell.

View PostDeRazer, on 16 March 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Many good points raised already, but from a pure immersion point of view it would be great to be able to do this.

I think you should permit all weapons to do it as they all have their issues anyway...

Ballistics or PPC - only going to hit one or two.. LBX might be fun though..
MGs - timing critical as range is so low.
Lasers - well, good luck holding those on target for even the full second necessary to take one out.

However, I think you would need to
a) Increased LRM speed - something that I think should be done anyway! But in this case "cruising speed" would need to be a lot higher.
B) Allow "flat" trajectories for Artemis launchers where you have the line of sight+ lock. Much harder to hit something coming straight at you. Also "dumb" firing of LRMs in a straight line with Artemis LRMs.
c) Slight buffs to damage AND splash damage/impulse radius (though splash damage can be very low). Missiles that get through should do damage/impulse even if they hit the floor nearby.
d) Activate the (planned I think)XP rewards for normal AMS to increase incentives to use them.


This might also serve to improve those horrible games where one team gets all the ECM and/or LRMs.

View PostTwilight Fenrir, on 16 March 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

This exact topic has been raised before... I think with identical pole options, too :P

Either way, it is an emphatic YES!

Just pure immersion, I want to be able to turn my machine gun boat skywards and trim off the missles coming for me. Obviously my gauss, AC, and PPC aren't going to be worth the attempt... But if I've got MGs, or lasers, it would be worth my time. Especially in a light mech.

People talk about LRMs as the 'noob' weapon, requiring no skill... But that really isn't true. It's only easy when there are skill less pilots to take advantage of. (or skilled ones who just get screwed by random luck.... Or LRM 100s :P)

I really grew to appreciate their use over this last event, as the only 'special' heavy I have is my Founder's Catapult. It requires a different skill set to be sure, but it definitely still requires skill to be an effective missle mech.

So, I can appreciate that the boaters don't want yet more ways to defeat their attacks... But it really is something that needs to happen. I doubt it would make that much difference strategically, but it would make a world of difference for fun. To feel like a badass as flame blossoms in the air while you wail away impotently before getting smacked in the face :P

Go ahead and give a (small) buff to LRMs to compensate... Missle speed would be a great, and logical one. I don't think there are many things that could stay airborn at the speeds at which they travel in-game...

The missles should have a certain amount of HP when it comes to lasers...it should take more than an instant of contact with a small laser to take one out... But MGs and LBX should be able to do it on-contact...


For one I AM an LRM boat owner ( LRM 80 madcat, LRM 35 orion, LRM 60 cat) So its not like I'm an person that hates LRMs or for that matter even has a problem trying to dodge them at all, quite easy in my other two madcats that are set up for close in fighting (UAC20 + 5 ERML)/(3 ERML + 2RM6 + 2ERLL). I just think along the same lines with fenrir that this would make the immersion factor awesome!

Also as he pointed out it wouldn't honestly do much to the LRMs in the first place, if you look at the stats for AMS they have to make like 9 or something shots to do 2 damage to kill a missile, if you think about how hard it would be to hold a laser on the group thats moving DOWN on you or across the map at your team you would really only be able to hit 2-3.

You also wouldn't fire, say, a Gauss rifle at a missile cluster to kill ONE missile.....at least I hope you wouldn't......

Now lets look at what Egomane says about the effectiveness of AMS vs LRM20s from a tonnage standpoint, first off how many heavy's and assault's (who have plenty of tonnage for this to work mind you) go out and use 2 tons to equip an AMS system? What about two? The problem is in reality most of the time its lights who throw on an AMS and they are busy (or at least they should be) running around and getting positional information and picking off weak targets, not with the main battle group intercepting the CLOUDS of LRMs that we all know happen. Now think about this for a second too, my LRM 80 madcat can break through ANY AMS screen there is. Now what happens if there are two of these present? Three? Answer is the 3-5 AMS on the team that may work just dandy against LRM5 spam or a light with a LRM10 are now helpless against the swarm of 200+ missiles that mow their way though anyone dumb enough to be transfixed by their luminescent glory!

Now change this same situation where the team that has no ECM and only 3-5 AMS (realistic number of AMS you will most likely see anyway, and that's on the high side) engaging the same LRM heavy and potentially ECM equipped enemy team BUT give them the ability to fire on the incoming swarms. What you get is a glorious, cinematic like scene of mech desperately fring into the air to thin the miasma of death and destruction that is raining upon them! Just think how much better it would be not to feel totally helpless under a seemingly never ending barrage of 4 clan LRM20s being chain fired and to see some of the angry blue eyes swarming toward you blow up from your desperate laser and machine gun fire!

Not only would this be INSANELY fun but it would effectively give every mech present a chance to be a (somewhat less accurate and effective) AMS system if faced with a overwhelmingly high number of enemy LRM boats. Would be a very rewarding experience!

Now I know you might say, "So hang on, what do LRM lovers get out of this?" Well, a few things.......

First, when the enemy is busy shooting at your missiles that means that: 1. They are not shooting you, and 2. They are wasting heat reserve and potentially ammo while having a very minimal effect on your firepower.

Second, if the enemy team is trying to intercept your LRM swarm you get to feel like a demigod raining fire from the heavens watching the mere mortals blindly poke their pathetic lasers into the sky hoping to be spared from the onslaught! (I personally SOOOOO want to see people cowering in terror and firing at my LRM80 swarm while they inevitably die from dismemberment and massive torso damage!)

Also the final thing I would like for people to consider is the attack angle and corresponding range of LRM in regards to attempted interception. When fired at longer ranges (500+ meters) LRMs and IS varients even more so, tend to fly upward a fair distance then drop almost vertically onto the target. This makes interception at long range (the only situation where a human will have time to line up on the incoming missiles) very difficult.

#10 JaxRiot

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:06 AM

I had to vote No on this one.

I know that from an immersion stand it sounds good. But from a game play stand I don't feel that it is.

There are already a whole bunch of ways to stop LRMs. AMS, Line Of Sight, Cover, ECM, Jamming, and one that hardly nobody mentions but Ive seen, Powering down to break the lock. Even those crazy little fast mechs can out run a volley making the majority of the missiles hit the ground behind them. Get within 180m and LRMs cant even hurt you.


I know a lot of people think that LRM Boaters are easy mode, but the in my mind the deck is stacked against them. If these maps could talk there would be stories of untold masses of LRM missiles that never found their mark and just came crashing into the ground.

Cheers

Jax

Edited by JaxRiot, 16 March 2015 - 08:43 AM.


#11 Telmasa

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:14 PM

I think it would be cool to be able to shoot down LRMs with your weaponry, if you so choose.

However, to compensate, I say they bring back LRM splash damage and/or buff it back to 1.1 damage per missile (instead of just 1, like it is now).

#12 VinJade

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:28 PM

@JaxRiot
I agree, there are far more counters to one single weapon type that isn't even funny and people want even more ways to weaken an already weakened weapon.

PGI needs to fix the powerdown flaw but then we will see more people whine about LRMs and wanting to weaken the already weakened weapon.

heck the AC 2 is more powerful than LRMs as the AC 2 has a massive shock going for it when it hits compared to LRMs, GRs, or other heavier ACs.

#13 50 50

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:38 PM

It does sound like it would be fun to be able to manually shoot down missiles but I have my reservations about it.

The standard AMS system is effectively a specialized machine gun.
The laser AMS system is what you are after and this was effectively a small pulse laser.
Doesn't require ammunition but generates heat.

The question would be whether the item needs to be mounted in the specialized AMS hardpoints, or if it could be fitted to the laser hardpoints, but then you could argue the same for the existing AMS and whether it could be mounted on ballistic hard points.
You could go either way with this discussion.

The simple rule would be that if mounted in the AMS slot, the system automatically tracks and counters the missiles as it currently does and is more effective that way.
If allowing MGs and Small Pulse Lasers to shoot down missiles, then you would say that these are equipped as normal and have to be aimed and fired manually using a weapon group.
IF you were in the direct line of fire, you might hit a few, but it would be very difficult at another angle.
Possible an alternate fire mode in addition to the group and chain fire could be added, more of a scatter/burst shot or straight shot so the weapons don't converge.
It may need a specialized weapon group as well.

Keep in mind that you can't use the AMS to shoot and do damage to a mech, it's a specialized system.

Add the laser AMS to the game by all means. I would definitely like to see that.
The AMS and it's modules could be improved if needed.

All that said, allowing standard MGs and small pulse lasers to shoot down missiles could always be trialled so we can see how it works out, take it back out again if it doesn't.
It is an intriguing idea.

Edited by 50 50, 16 March 2015 - 05:24 PM.


#14 Koniving

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:31 PM

What missile interception might look like (using the actual game). Gif in spoiler.
Posted Image

And yes, that's real and not photoshopped.
Source. It occurs after 5 minutes in.

Edited by Koniving, 16 March 2015 - 07:28 PM.


#15 EasyPickings

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:32 PM

Had to vote no for a couple of reasons: 1) there are already ways to defeat LRMs (listed above) and
2) where would it stop? If you can shoot down LRMS, why not be able to nail Gauss projectiles in mid-flight or counter PPC projectiles with other PPC projectiles? You'd be opening a whole can of worms here.

#16 Bloodweaver

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:55 PM

YES. Absolutely.

But only with caveats.

In order to mitigate the fact that there are already so many counters to LRMs, this could only be implemented if LRMs were made to behave differently. Higher speed, more damage, but much higher reload time, and probably higher heat too.

Or, instead of longer reload times? Make each load of LRMs require a re-lock of your target. Either way, you change the role of LRMs. Right now, you're relegated to either using them as backup to other, more powerful weapons, OR, to using them as an artillery system by loading them up in spades to the exclusion of anything else and becoming one of those despised (so I hear, anyway) LRM boats. Give them a much better travel time, and a much worse reload time, and this stops. Yes, you could still make huge LRM alphas - but it's not going to be very effective if you can only fire that alpha once every eight seconds(for example). You can also balance out those huge LRM alphas by raising LRM heat, if needed.

But regardless, the point is it'd be great to see them become a truly self-sufficient weapon. The way they work right now, you NEED your teammates to use LRMs to their full potential. This is not true of any other weapon in the game. Anyway - do that, and yes, being able to shoot them out of the sky becomes a viable option. Which improves the game by increasing immersion and bringing in another element of skill to gameplay.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 16 March 2015 - 06:56 PM.


#17 The Massive

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:25 PM

Lrms have enough counters. And if you can post a video of you shooting a firework out of the air with a gun then sure. Until then no.

#18 Koniving

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:34 PM

View PostMaccasimus, on 16 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Lrms have enough counters. And if you can post a video of you shooting a firework out of the air with a gun then sure. Until then no.


View PostKoniving, on 16 March 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

Posted Image

Did that suffice?

#19 Nightshade24

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:38 PM

View PostStriker2237, on 16 March 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

Problem is it takes 7 AMS to stop just ONE LRM20 salvo and a good bit of mechs can't mount even two AMS.......I figured in light of this the ability to use ballistics to intercept would be a fair compromise.

Well the thing is LRM 20's often have 50% misses on a target due to huge spread... unless your an assault which is around 10 to 25% misses

#20 VinJade

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 04:52 AM

I think it comes down to people in the end gripping about LRMs nothing more and that's what this is all about nothing more, nothing less.

people hate LRMs so they find ways to make them a useless weapon by making sure none of them can hit them.

I say if you want to be able to hit them then they should become 90% faster and deal 60% more damage to make up for the fact that none may actually make it in and those that do should deal more damage to make up for it.

think its not fair well think how we LRM users feel about how people want to make LRMs more or less worthless.

why don't we just have them remove all missile systems while we are at it because this would make LRMs unusable because we have someone who doesn't know how to avoid most of the missiles or the fact that we have AMS, over powered ECMs, and the ability to hide or dodge them.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I am getting tired of people trying to make LRMs pointless if they can be easily taken out.

after all has it accrued to any of you that for this option would allow every enemy unit to shoot down the missiles which means they won't make it anywhere close to the target?

Edited by VinJade, 17 March 2015 - 04:55 AM.






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