625 replies to this topic

[Wingbreaker]

Tasker, on 16 March 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

You know, and I know, that clan mechs are good. Whether or not win rate back this up, fact remain that Timber Wolf and Storm Crow are best mech in game. Not asking for nerf to Timber Wolf, or Storm Crow, and in fact, think Adder and Gargoyle need help.

But please join in point and laugh at clanner who claim deck stacked against him because IS have +10 ton drop deck.

Woe is me, you can use the Stalker in the same manner as we use the timberwolf (except it's still not as good as the timby).

Truly, balance is ****. IS bettar than clan! /s

lol.

I had hoped the adder might be a viable throwaway in our decks now, but nope.jpg. Still would rather have a mist lynx, and that's sad.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 16 March 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Chef Kerensky]

Sorrowcry, on 16 March 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

In your hands? Maybe. Adder, how I think, is not garbage? Dude.

It is bad. The panther is an object lesson that no matter how good the quirks are, if the mech is bad at doing its job, it will continue to be garbage. The 10K is a failure as a sniper and as a poptart because its hardpoint location is awful and it can't boat 2 of the weapon it needs to boat in order to compete with other mechs filling a similar role. The 9R has the same bad hardpoint location, runs too hot, and lacks the range the 10K has.

The 8z is okay as a tiny wolverine. Still not something I would bring into a real match because the Firestarter does its job better without question for the same tonnage.

[Calamus]

Wow... These quirks are so overwhelming... I can't contain my excitement...

IS Thunderbolt can have more than 25% increases in PPCs, and Summoners get 1% LRM buffs. I'm giddy with excitement...

[ST0RM3R]

Tasker, on 16 March 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

You are aptly named. Ha ha.

I told you go and show me how you claim 21 planets.

[Shabahh Kerensky]

So the adder gets erppcs cool down but not a heat reduction?

...

I just what?

[Kain Demos]

Chef Kerensky, on 16 March 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Conversely the average bad is why the 9S was cut down in its prime and why people argue that it's okay that the resistance mechs are garbage because they'll just be toned up later despite the incoming wave 3 pack, which seems to be making up for how bad most of clan wave 2 was by bringing 3 of the most incredible looking mechs yet (and possibly a 4th, but the jury's still out on the Executioner)

Let's not pretend the Mad Cat, Loki, Ryoken, Thunderwub, and Stalker aren't leagues above everything else right now, and let's not pretend that we'll ever reach a point where there won't be any "top tiers" because that's just how balance works. At the same time though let's not ignore mechs that have potential but are complete garbage because of crippling flaws when they could be changed slightly to add a lot to the game.

I am against all of those nerfs and any future ones due to QQ from people who do not know what they are talking about.

They should be focusing on making the less played stuff better but not at the expense of anything else just to appease crybabies.

[aniviron]

The assumption that seems to be made about the Adder, Ice Ferret, Summoner, and Gargoyle is that they can't be all that bad, they have access to clan weapons after all, right?

I'd argue that they're every bit as bad as the worst IS mechs right now. If I'm playing to win, I will take any IS light over the Adder, with the exception of the SDR-5V. Same thing goes for IS mediums and the Ice Ferret, heavies and Summoner, and assaults and Gargoyle. They're all so bad that having clan weaponry doesn't really do much to bridge the performance gap.

And before you round on me with "But anivirion, they're making baby steps towards balancing!" Yeah, except the Summoner Prime pods already gave it +10% energy cooldown, +10% ballistic cooldown, and +25% acceleration and deceleration. Despite these quirks, you'll notice that the Summoner hasn't been exactly overpowered for the last few months that it's had these, and somehow, I have to doubt the fact that reducing the quirk numbers (10% energy goes to 2%, 10% ballistic to 5, and accel/decel to 20%) is going to help the Summoner much at all. Even better, it trades its two decent +5 degree torso yaw quirks for an amazing -2% LRM/SRM spread!

[Chef Kerensky]

Bulletsponge0, on 16 March 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

why did you leave out the rest of that data?

like where he said tht the clans had on average a 100 higher Elo than the IS during that test..and that translates into an expected 64% win rate

Let me put this very simply because I explained it once before. Elo is based on winrate, and was originally conceived as a rating system for a game in which both players start under identical circumstances. Clans win 64% of the time. Clans and the IS are not symmetrical. Guess where that 100 Elo comes from.

[Wingbreaker]

Sorrowcry, on 16 March 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

I told you go and show me how you claim 21 planets.

Let's not get in a dots-on-the-map measuring contest, pls.

[Tasker]

Shabahh Kerensky, on 16 March 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

So the adder gets erppcs cool down but not a heat reduction?

...

I just what?

Edited by Tasker, 16 March 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 16 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

Structure quirks on the body would be nice. I rarely lose my arms either. Though I understand structure / armor quirks on the King Crab's arms because the fastest way to get rid of its heavy ballistic firepower is just to take out the arms. Same with a dire wolf (though buffing the arms on it would make the Dire Wolf a bit too hard to deal with).

The arm buffs on the Crab and hypothetically on the Dire make no sense, but it doesn't really matter to them because they are already good chassis' for their respective class. The Adder however needs as all the quirks it can get to match up with its actual played role because it is fairly bad; or the quirks to be strong enough that it can overcome its deficiencies and be good at a different role.

The Adder's strength is brawling (Wub Adder or Spladder), trying to play the range game with the Adder works in a non-coordinated environment. In a more coordinated environment however, in that slow, large, and lightly armored of a mech, it is just target practice if you are trying to play with range.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 16 March 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Rational behind "Overheat damage -5%" rather than blanket heat reduction? Mech's should not be overheating in the first place...

Edited by White Bear 84, 16 March 2015 - 03:51 PM.

[Summon3r]

can we get one thing clear for all the people going on about how PGI stated the next set of quirks was going to be gradual.... THERE IS NOTHING GRADUAL ABOUT THIS, infact there is nothing at all 1/2/4% is eff all and not gradual its microscopic..

PS the Summoner actually got stealth nerfed, lost 10% energy cool down on RA and 10% ballistic cooldown on LA.

[Deathlike]

I wish I saw this earlier before I went grinding...

I honestly need some of this info marinate in my head, so that I can give a better analysis of the situation... let me point out 3 things.

1) The Missile velocity quirks are actually really important. If anyone remembered the ridiculous rain of LRMs back when that was being adjusted (to like 170 or 175?). Currently, they are set to 160. I kinda remember my own nerf recommendation, but that's neither here nor there. When LRMs are faster, they honestly hit their targets more effectively. This is what I best remember about them. So, when the missile velocity of a Trebuchet is now 176 (+10% missile velocity) instead of the base 160, those LRMs are going to hit more often. Mind you, this is not quite like the LRM10 spam of the Hunchback-4J, but it's "more accurate" because of the speed and therefore more deadly.

Some of these quirks are applied to Clan Mechs, but not to the same degree. So, it's not gonna be as special there.

However, any increase of missile velocity for Streaks will keep them closer to the IS version... but these quirks seems minimal at best.


2) The smidgen of omnipod quirks look pretty bad on paper. I think that there will be some mechs that would benefit, but it reinforces the notion of boating and anyone that plays this game will well know that these changes do add up. Of course, it depends a lot on the context. There will always be omnipod min-maxing, but I think there will be some changes that make sense, and a whole lot of others that have little to no effect based on the mechs.


3) What's also hard to really understand is the LRM/SRM/missile and LBX spread that is mentioned here. I'd kinda wish smurfy put out that number, but I'd like to see the effects of the numbers in a more scientific approach (yes, for SCIENCE) as it's hard to qualify how effective said buffs would be. Just on paper... they really seem microscopic.


While I kinda believe Russ's statement on the matter... a fair number of changes don't make sense. It is as if one needed to fire the man who shall not be named.

If you REALLY want to balance something properly (like the Adder), you really need a member in the stuff that plays the game AT LEAST 5-6 games (1 hour of time) IN GAME... spending time with all factions (competitive groups, solo players) and not just be isolated to some desk playing with numbers and not seeing how it plays in game realtime. You need someone to spend time with "the people" (like not Sean Lang) and not just people who kiss your arse and not give you the whole picture. To truly understand the game, you'd have to PLAY A WHOLE LOT. I don't expect any PGI member to be a top tier competitive player... I just expect that person to understand BALANCE on the whole understanding nuances, mechanics, and how they are applied at a higher level. Otherwise, it's just not going to be productive.


I just see this as a mixed bad... with some interest, some disappoint, and some "what the eff" moments. I don't see the Adder buffed well enough... the Trebuchet will be interesting... and these omnipod quirks honestly seem "odd" w/o context.

Go figure. I need to think about this more.

[Tasker]

If you want good balance feedback, just ask moderatepudding for spreadsheet of suggested quirk changes, and try them for week. Guarantee get better results that more people happy with.

Would also nominate self, but imagine clanner would not be happy with results. Ha ha ha.

Edited by Tasker, 16 March 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[cSand]

Alienized, on 16 March 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

now does your quickdraw die fast?....

never did man!

[Richter Kerensky]

I'm laughing that 4% Increased Machine Gun Range is something someone thought of as a thing to put in this game.

[ST0RM3R]

Wingbreaker, on 16 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Let's not get in a dots-on-the-map measuring contest, pls.

Shut up them first. Here we told about quirks but their beaten ego prevent the discussion about thread theme.

[aniviron]

Tasker, on 16 March 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

If you want good balance feedback, just ask moderatepudding for spreadsheet of suggested quirk changes, and try them for week. Guarantee get better results that more people happy with.

Would also nominate self, but imagine clanner would not be happy with results. Ha ha ha.

Seconding modpud for lead quirk designer.

[Bulletsponge0]

jjyn, on 16 March 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Dont hear on one mention the clanner weapons are already op. The range on them is far more supiorer then IS are. So stop whinning clanners and you IS drivers that drive them too.The only thing you have too complain about is the amount of chooses you have for any given weight class.The IS still have too kill 2 of you torses with XL as opposed too our one. There is always going too be players who cry and now that the IS has a little chance of beating clanners [and the IS fights harder for it ] you tink your being cheated and it is because we have become better pilots.

the ERPPC on my Enforcer 4r has a range of 993m with the module...

where do the clans have the range advantage over that?