36 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

So. Lots of hue and cry over the ‘totally pointless’ 1 and 2% Clan quirks on the listed update. However, there’s a notion I wanted to run by people in a separate thread, see what they figured, and see whether anyone else agrees with me that A.) smaller, quicker, more honestly iterative changes can’t be anything but awesome, and B.) those 1 and 2% numbers are actually just fine.

First thing. Let’s examine the Adder, often considered the worst ‘Mech of the entire Clan arsenal. It’s a 35-ton ‘Mech which is big as hell for its weight bracket, slower than half the game’s mediums, and even more hardpoint deprived than the Summoner, with a maximum of 4 hardpoints in any given configuration. It can neither jump nor carry ECM, though its weapons are at least reasonably high-mounted, and it has the benefit of a great deal of pod space for a light.

The Badder Prime gets 7.5% C-ERPPC velocity and 2% C-ERPPC cooldown per arm, as well as +6 structure. Total of 15% C-ERPPC velocity and 4% cooldown from the pods, which is admittedly modest, but the important thing to note with the Badder (Prime) is the other abilities given to it. +12 structure per leg is a big honkin’ boost, and a total of 25% accel/decal is nothing to sneeze at. +10% reverse speed is…a thing, I suppose…but the extra AMS range could be helpful. Most importantly, all told it suggests a direction to go with fixing the Badder that doesn’t give us what amounts to a 35-ton TDR-9S. For the most part, Clan weapons don’t need the sorts of godawful overdone quirks Inner Sphere squirtguns do. Our crap is lighter, tighter, and hits like a truck already. Why give the Badder crazyridic weapons quirks when bad weapons aren’t the Badder’s problem?

The Badder’s problem is that it’s a slow light in a game where slow lights have no real place or purpose. It’s as vulnerable, by default, as any other 35-tonner, but doesn’t have the scorching speed or phase-armor hitboxes of other lights to compensate for that. What it does have is Spheroid-medium levels of firepower, but against Clan mediums that vanishes, and frankly it’ll never compete with the Cheetah in the category of combat light anyways.

So don’t make it do that.

Focus on toughness improvements for the Badder and give it an admittedly nichey role in CW as a light ‘Mech with nearly medium ‘Mech levels of durability. Armor bonuses (what’s that massive shroud for if not to protect the thing’s torso sections?), structure bonuses, give it what it needs to be a 35-ton pocket Stormcrow in tonnage-limited CW drop decks. Nothing will make it anything but a lulz choice in the regular pug queue, but why does the Badder – or the Suckoner, or the Garfail, or anything else – need enormous weapon buffs when their weapons aren’t the problem?

The Gargoyle needs to move better, which is a problem Piranha seems halfway to addressing. The Adder needs to be either faster or tougher, which is also a thing Piranha seems to be addressing. The Summoner…is a complicated issue, and of late I’m not convinced it’s as Tier 5 Awfultastic as everyone says it is, but it’s getting some reasonably hefty weapon bonuses in the new set-up as well as its existing mobility package. In no case do any of these ‘Mechs need better weapons; their problems are almost always not enough hardpoints/pod space, which the existing sort of weapon megaquirks can’t really address.

Would Badders with 50% PPC velocity be awesome? Of course. And maybe they’ll get there. But until then, let’s remember that Clan guns pretty much come pre-megaquirked. What we need to fix are the chassis, not the guns, and Piranha seems to have the same idea.

Let’s see what they make of it, eh?

[BARBAR0SSA]

Don't care about cooldown or velocity for adder, it was thinking they were going to do something like one of the below.

A.) massive speed boost and functions like a large easier to hit jenner to make up for the increased alpha damage, which makes sense, since it can hit and run then cool off.

b.) Heat generation quirk for PPCs on 1 arm side that's limited to THAT arm, I thought that's what they were going to do with clan quirks is make them specific to a location, and keep all the energy quirks on 1 side, and all missile or uac quirks elsewhere. So you may have an adder that has Dual ERPPCs but 1 arm gets 11 Heat where the other gets the full 15 etc.

Edited by shad0w4life, 16 March 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[1453 R]

Lopsided quirks like that would make no sense whatsoever. Someone who likes their PPC in the right arm and their missiles in the left gets a big bonus to each, but someone who flips that arrangement gets nothing? No no, Pirahna’s got the right of it. Clan quirks have to be on a per-pod basis, and balanced with an eye towards what the maximum bonuses on any given pod combination would be.

As for ‘massive’ increases to the Adder’s speed, that would honestly be awful. Bumping it up to even just ~125kph – what most folks I know of consider the very bottom of the usual light ‘Mech speed curve – would essentially represent several tons of phantom engine weight the Adder doesn’t have to pay for. Not only does this blur the machine’s intended role of heavily-armed fire support light, but it’s patently unfair to ‘Mechs that actually pay that tonnage in their engine for that mobility, and thusly sacrifice the significant pod space/weapon tonnage the Adder enjoys.

The solution isn’t to megaquirk the Adder into a role it was never meant for, it’s to try and figure out some way to implement the Adder’s natural role as semi-effectively as possible. I think Piranha’s on the first few steps of the right track with it, but we’ll have to see how it goes.

[Bobzilla]

A: It's role means nothing if another mech can do it way better.


B: Quirks that don't favour boating is genius.

C: Small changes that come fast is great. But 2% a month for a year is just too much.

[KraftySOT]

Everyone says smaller quicker changes....you might not want to hold your breath until the next quirk pass two months from now.

[FupDup]

KraftySOT, on 16 March 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Everyone says smaller quicker changes....you might not want to hold your breath until the next quirk pass two months from now.

This right here is the issue. If we had some kind of guarantee/confidence in a very soon second pass to reiterate on these current values, that would make the "baby steps" approach seem more valid.

Right now, what we're expecting/fearing is that this "iterative" process might take just as long between changes as the large and sweeping changes do.

[BARBAR0SSA]

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Lopsided quirks like that would make no sense whatsoever. Someone who likes their PPC in the right arm and their missiles in the left gets a big bonus to each, but someone who flips that arrangement gets nothing? No no, Pirahna’s got the right of it. Clan quirks have to be on a per-pod basis, and balanced with an eye towards what the maximum bonuses on any given pod combination would be.

As for ‘massive’ increases to the Adder’s speed, that would honestly be awful. Bumping it up to even just ~125kph – what most folks I know of consider the very bottom of the usual light ‘Mech speed curve – would essentially represent several tons of phantom engine weight the Adder doesn’t have to pay for. Not only does this blur the machine’s intended role of heavily-armed fire support light, but it’s patently unfair to ‘Mechs that actually pay that tonnage in their engine for that mobility, and thusly sacrifice the significant pod space/weapon tonnage the Adder enjoys.

The solution isn’t to megaquirk the Adder into a role it was never meant for, it’s to try and figure out some way to implement the Adder’s natural role as semi-effectively as possible. I think Piranha’s on the first few steps of the right track with it, but we’ll have to see how it goes.

"Not only does this blur the machine’s intended role of heavily-armed fire support light"

So no to controlling the loadout to avoid min/max or boating. and keep it in the intended role. You basically want quirks to encourage boating and making it have to compete specifically with other mechs that can do it better.

If I don't want to run dual PPCs and I drop in a mech with PPC heat quirks, why is that better than an intended location, just like the lore build?

The only way you keep the adder somewhat viable in the "intended role" is giving it a long range boost then, which is ppc boating or LPL boating, that's a hot mech.

Edited by shad0w4life, 16 March 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[aniviron]

The Summoner has had 10% cooldown quirks for months now, and not only have they not been a problem, they didn't go nearly far enough. Now we're getting 2% quirks because PGI is worried that 5% will be too much? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The Summoner Prime omnipods are actually going to get a nerf tomorrow, as crazy as that sounds.

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

As for ‘massive’ increases to the Adder’s speed, that would honestly be awful. Bumping it up to even just ~125kph – what most folks I know of consider the very bottom of the usual light ‘Mech speed curve – would essentially represent several tons of phantom engine weight the Adder doesn’t have to pay for.

And negative heat gen quirks don't represent heat sink weight that mechs don't have to pay for? Burn time quirks don't represent TCs/command consles that are weightless?

The cat is already out of that bag, it's too late to go back.

[ThrashInc]

I'll just repost this here too:

Well I thought the problem with the Adder was that it was slow, hot, and its weapons were easy to remove.

Going by IS quirks, ie, "avoiding powercreep and not making new SCR's, TBR's, etc" that is the default response as to why these quirks are awful, you would expect to see the following:

Let's look at the Panther, an ER PPC IS Light:
PNT-10K

This mech gets the following quirks:

Acceleration Rate Low Speed - 15%
 
Acceleration Rate Medium Speed - 15%
Acceleration Rate High Speed - 15%
Deceleration Rate Low Speed -  15%
Deceleration Rate Medium Speed - 15%
Deceleration Rate High Speed - 15%
Turn Rate Low Speed - 10%
Turn Rate Medium Speed - 10%
Turn Rate High Speed  - 10%
Additional Structure RA - 12
Additional Structure LL - 6
Additional Structure RL - 6
Energy Cooldown - 12.5%
Energy Heat Generation 12.5%
Missile Cooldown - 15%
Missile Heat Generation - 15%
ER PPC Velocity - 40%
ER PPC Cooldown - 12.5%
ER PPC Heat Generation - 12.5%

The Adder is slower and that cannot be changed, but it does run a bit cooler than a Panther-10k would sans quirks.

Now let's apply those changes to the Adder in a way that makes sense to the Adders disabilities.

ADR-PRIME

ADR-Prime
 
RA Omnipod - Additional Armor 12 | ER PPC Velocity 20% | ER PPC Cooldown 7.5% | ER PPC Heat Generation 7.5%
RT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 5% | Deceleration Rate 5% |
CT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 20% | Deceleration Rate 20% | Speed (Reverse, Forward) 10% | Energy Heat Generation - 7.5% | Energy Cooldown 7.5%
LT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 5% | Deceleration Rate 5%
LA Omnipod - Additional Armor 12 | ER PPC Velocity 20% | ER PPC Cooldown 7.5% | ER PPC Heat Generation 7.5%
RL Omnipod - Additional Structure +6
LL Omnipod - Additional Structure +6

These mechs are now similar.

The Panther has an overall buff of 25% ER PPC Heat Generation, 25% ER PPC Cooldown, 40% ER PPC Velocity and is still faster with Jump Jets.

The Adder has an overall buff of 22.5% ER PPC Heat Generation, 25% ER PPC Cooldown, 40% ER PPC Velocity and is still slower with no Jump Jets. The issues to speed are somewhat addressed, as well as poor hitboxes and no shield side, full exposure to fire, weak arms, etc.

Instead, this is what the Adder is getting:

RA Omnipod - Additional Structure 6 | ER PPC Velocity 7.5% | ER PPC Cooldown 2%
 
RT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 2.5% | Deceleration Rate 2.5% | AMS Range 10%
CT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 20% | Deceleration Rate 20% | Reverse Speed 10%
LT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 2.5% | Deceleration Rate 2.5%
LA Omnipod - Additional Structure 6 | ER PPC Velocity 7.5% | ER PPC Cooldown 2%
RL Omnipod - Additional Structure 12
LL Omnipod - Additional Structure 12

For a total of 15% ER PPC Velocity, 4% ER PPC Cooldown and the LA/RA aren't too much stronger.

Is this because the C-ER PPC is "stronger" (lol)? Is that why no one uses the C-ER PPC except mechs that need to put the biggest weapon in their limited hardpoints as possible to be viable or Assaults who have nothing better to use?

I see lots of IS mechs with ER PPCs though this is also due to the fact that IS mechs get quirks like the Panther-10K which make ER PPCs a good option.

The response on twitter is that we should not act as if these quirks make our mechs worse and that we are attempting to avoid powercreep. All I really see is an Adder that I would still never purchase and that my CW dropdeck remains SCR SCR SCR TBR/HBR.

[1453 R]

aniviron, on 16 March 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

The Summoner has had 10% cooldown quirks for months now, and not only have they not been a problem, they didn't go nearly far enough. Now we're getting 2% quirks because PGI is worried that 5% will be too much? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The Summoner Prime omnipods are actually going to get a nerf tomorrow, as crazy as that sounds.

And that sucks. It does, especially given the Summoner's questionable position as it is. But until Piranha goes a month or two without another set of tweaks, I'm not going to proclaim it The End Of The World. Tina specifically mentioned that they're trying a new direction with balancing. I intend to see if they actually mean that..

Quote

And negative heat gen quirks don't represent heat sink weight that mechs don't have to pay for? Burn time quirks don't represent TCs/command consles that are weightless?

The cat is already out of that bag, it's too late to go back.

I'd like to think there's something of a difference between a couple of phantom heatsinks and/or a phantom TC and fifty-plus points of phantom engine rating. I'm also one of those weirdos who feels like the entirety of the quirk system needs to be reconsidered and who really doesn't like seeing any of these ludicrous 40% things out there. On top of being rather cheesed off that the only things Piranha has seen fit to do so far is pump random weapon stats or bulk up armor/structure. It's one of the reasons I'm heartened to see the new quirksets - there's actually some variety there.

Besides. Did some math myself a while back which showed that even just the Fast Fire 5% cooldown resulted in something like an 11% actual DPS increase. Cooldown/IAS bonuses are a big deal, as DRG-1Ns regularly clearing 1200 damage a game these days and the old TDR-9Ses beating down Timber Wolves in straight-up gunfights without much trouble should demonstrate.

Would I have preferred more velocity out the gates on the Adder? Absolutely. Frankly I'd've preferred Piranha to add back in, say, ten or twenty percent shot velocity to the base PPC weapon class itself, considering how not-good most of them are on 'Mechs that don't have huge velocity buffs. But again, I'm waiting to see what Piranha does after this patch, and whether we get more adjustments next update. ~2% adjustments every two weeks sounds like a whole hell of a lot better plan than 50% adjustments that get knocked down to 20% adjustments four months later before being kicked back up to 35% adjustments two months later, then knocked back down to 20% adjustments in an overnight hotfix because of a glitch in the Matrix.

[Funkmaster Rick]

Thrash, dude, I love that you made your post there all beautiful and stuff, but cross-posting the same post to two different threads? Come on, bro, you're better than that.

[Ultimax]

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

A.) smaller, quicker, more honestly iterative changes can’t be anything but awesome, and B.) those 1 and 2% numbers are actually just fine

So 1% increase per month.


See you in one year when some of these mechs have enough "iterative" changes to actually mean something.



At least 1% per month is better than most savings accounts.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 March 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[1453 R]

Okay, Chuckles. Who's to say the 1% thing is the new Ultimate Standard?

Maybe they see it's not making much impact and switch to 5%.

Maybe it's 1% every two weeks with occasional hotfix adjustments as well, so averaging, say, 1% every week and a half.

Whatever they do it cannot possibly be worse than slopping around 40% nonsense quirks and watching people scramble like madmen to get the New Hawtness worked up before watching those magical 40% numbers fade away like bittersweet dreams when Piranha comes to its senses and implements more realistic numbers.

[Brody319]

1% is Trash.

lets do some numbers.
Clan weapons | Clan weapons with 1% cooldown | Clan weapons with 2% cooldown
SLs - 2.25 2.23 2.21
MLs - 3 2.97 2.96
LLs - 3.25 3.22 3.19



So...Almost nothing, mere like microseconds

[aniviron]

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

And that sucks. It does, especially given the Summoner's questionable position as it is. But until Piranha goes a month or two without another set of tweaks, I'm not going to proclaim it The End Of The World. Tina specifically mentioned that they're trying a new direction with balancing. I intend to see if they actually mean that..

If they stick with it, I'll eat my words. This isn't the first time we've heard that we're getting small, iterative balance changes, only to find out that the first balance pass was also the last one for more than a year. Pulse lasers in particular come to mind...

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'd like to think there's something of a difference between a couple of phantom heatsinks and/or a phantom TC and fifty-plus points of phantom engine rating. I'm also one of those weirdos who feels like the entirety of the quirk system needs to be reconsidered and who really doesn't like seeing any of these ludicrous 40% things out there. On top of being rather cheesed off that the only things Piranha has seen fit to do so far is pump random weapon stats or bulk up armor/structure. It's one of the reasons I'm heartened to see the new quirksets - there's actually some variety there.

Besides. Did some math myself a while back which showed that even just the Fast Fire 5% cooldown resulted in something like an 11% actual DPS increase. Cooldown/IAS bonuses are a big deal, as DRG-1Ns regularly clearing 1200 damage a game these days and the old TDR-9Ses beating down Timber Wolves in straight-up gunfights without much trouble should demonstrate.

Would I have preferred more velocity out the gates on the Adder? Absolutely. Frankly I'd've preferred Piranha to add back in, say, ten or twenty percent shot velocity to the base PPC weapon class itself, considering how not-good most of them are on 'Mechs that don't have huge velocity buffs. But again, I'm waiting to see what Piranha does after this patch, and whether we get more adjustments next update. ~2% adjustments every two weeks sounds like a whole hell of a lot better plan than 50% adjustments that get knocked down to 20% adjustments four months later before being kicked back up to 35% adjustments two months later, then knocked back down to 20% adjustments in an overnight hotfix because of a glitch in the Matrix.

I actually very much agree with you, and feel that the quirk system is being substituted for more difficult but much-needed balance changes. The very very first quirks that were added for just a few mechs before the full rollout were not too far off the mark. I also agree that the mech and pilot trees alter the game too much; without them, assaults actually feel slow and lumbering, lights are fast enough compared to mediums to have a clearly defined role, etc.

But again, I think it's too late. Power creep is real, and MWO has proved just as susceptible to it as Battletech before it. Now that everyone is used to playing with the skill trees, take that away and there's going to be an outcry, people don't like feeling less powerful. For the same reason, PGI is stuck being unable to roll back quirks or face a mutiny- look what happened when the TDR-9S was changed from a bonkers -50% heat quirk to a -25%. Honestly, if a weapon system needs a -50% heat quirk to be usable, that should tell them there is a problem with the weapon, but I guess it's easier to just shuffle the quirk numbers around.

So now they're in a situation where everything was overquirked, and the Firestarters which were once about on part with the Jenners completely outclass them, so the mech that got not quirks because it was supposed to be the rubric for how good IS lights are is getting quirks. It doesn't stop, either- the Awesome gets some structure quirks, because it's laughably fragile, but when you have a system like that, it's tempting to expand it. So now the Awesome gets stuck with +40 structure while the Zeus is getting more than 70 armor, and the Highlander is going to get more than 90. Soon they're going to have to beef up the Awesomes to make them viable again, because what was once a buff is now a nerf, since all of your opponents now enjoy the same benefit you did, but more.

And that's the crux of the matter- I think quirks should be much more subtle, just like you, but I know it's not going to happen. Since that's the case, we might as well get some +15-20% quirks on the really awful clan mechs instead of just pretending like they're going to roll back the quirks that your opponents have, because that's not going to happen. Quirks are only a buff in a vacuum; not having quirks when all your opponents have them is a nerf, not a buff.

Edited by aniviron, 16 March 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

TBH, when I see the term "iterative changes" being floated about... I expect a new change like every patch (technically every 2 weeks).

When PGI says they will do things with iterative changes, I see the changes happen at least 2 months later, give or take 4 more months.

So, you can see where the skepticism is warranted by many who are here on the forums.

[ThrashInc]

Funkmaster Rick, on 16 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Thrash, dude, I love that you made your post there all beautiful and stuff, but cross-posting the same post to two different threads? Come on, bro, you're better than that.

Hey I said I was doing it.

[PurpleNinja]

What about the flamer? Did they mention anything about the flamer?

[aniviron]

PurpleNinja, on 16 March 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

What about the flamer? Did they mention anything about the flamer?

This is from February... 2014.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 16 March 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

This is from February... 2014.

Hey, it's more than 90 days!