36 replies to this topic

[Walluh]

All I wanted on my badder was some heat dissipation and I would've used it all the time

[InspectorG]

aniviron, on 16 March 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

The Summoner has had 10% cooldown quirks for months now, and not only have they not been a problem, they didn't go nearly far enough. Now we're getting 2% quirks because PGI is worried that 5% will be too much? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The Summoner Prime omnipods are actually going to get a nerf tomorrow, as crazy as that sounds.



And negative heat gen quirks don't represent heat sink weight that mechs don't have to pay for? Burn time quirks don't represent TCs/command consles that are weightless?

The cat is already out of that bag, it's too late to go back.

Well...

I guess we have to start a Cult of Summoners, not unlike the Locust and use it as a handicap to shame other players when we happen to kill them with one.

"Killed by a Summoner? L2P you suckhole!!!"

We need to start spamming this.

Maybe after 100 pages of thread about our trolling in this fine example of weaksauce, it will get Locust like quirks?
For weapons that actually do damage?

[InspectorG]

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

So. Lots of hue and cry over the ‘totally pointless’ 1 and 2% Clan quirks on the listed update.

Let’s see what they make of it, eh?

Iterative implementation, good idea.

AMS buff?
NARC cooldown buff?
MG range buff?
LBX buff?

Just what in the Sam Holy Hell can you make out of that?

[ThrashInc]

The NARC cooldown is for when you are on a **** team in CW who brings LRMs.

The AMS buff is for when you decide to mess around and only drop Summoners instead of Hellbringers.

[Xetelian]

ThrashInc, on 16 March 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I'll just repost this here too:

Well I thought the problem with the Adder was that it was slow, hot, and its weapons were easy to remove.

Going by IS quirks, ie, "avoiding powercreep and not making new SCR's, TBR's, etc" that is the default response as to why these quirks are awful, you would expect to see the following:

Let's look at the Panther, an ER PPC IS Light:
PNT-10K

This mech gets the following quirks:

Acceleration Rate Low Speed - 15%
 
Acceleration Rate Medium Speed - 15%
Acceleration Rate High Speed - 15%
Deceleration Rate Low Speed -  15%
Deceleration Rate Medium Speed - 15%
Deceleration Rate High Speed - 15%
Turn Rate Low Speed - 10%
Turn Rate Medium Speed - 10%
Turn Rate High Speed  - 10%
Additional Structure RA - 12
Additional Structure LL - 6
Additional Structure RL - 6
Energy Cooldown - 12.5%
Energy Heat Generation 12.5%
Missile Cooldown - 15%
Missile Heat Generation - 15%
ER PPC Velocity - 40%
ER PPC Cooldown - 12.5%
ER PPC Heat Generation - 12.5%

The Adder is slower and that cannot be changed, but it does run a bit cooler than a Panther-10k would sans quirks.

Now let's apply those changes to the Adder in a way that makes sense to the Adders disabilities.

ADR-PRIME

ADR-Prime
 
RA Omnipod - Additional Armor 12 | ER PPC Velocity 20% | ER PPC Cooldown 7.5% | ER PPC Heat Generation 7.5%
RT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 5% | Deceleration Rate 5% |
CT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 20% | Deceleration Rate 20% | Speed (Reverse, Forward) 10% | Energy Heat Generation - 7.5% | Energy Cooldown 7.5%
LT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 5% | Deceleration Rate 5%
LA Omnipod - Additional Armor 12 | ER PPC Velocity 20% | ER PPC Cooldown 7.5% | ER PPC Heat Generation 7.5%
RL Omnipod - Additional Structure +6
LL Omnipod - Additional Structure +6

These mechs are now similar.

The Panther has an overall buff of 25% ER PPC Heat Generation, 25% ER PPC Cooldown, 40% ER PPC Velocity and is still faster with Jump Jets.

The Adder has an overall buff of 22.5% ER PPC Heat Generation, 25% ER PPC Cooldown, 40% ER PPC Velocity and is still slower with no Jump Jets. The issues to speed are somewhat addressed, as well as poor hitboxes and no shield side, full exposure to fire, weak arms, etc.

Instead, this is what the Adder is getting:

RA Omnipod - Additional Structure 6 | ER PPC Velocity 7.5% | ER PPC Cooldown 2%
 
RT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 2.5% | Deceleration Rate 2.5% | AMS Range 10%
CT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 20% | Deceleration Rate 20% | Reverse Speed 10%
LT Omnipod - Acceleration Rate 2.5% | Deceleration Rate 2.5%
LA Omnipod - Additional Structure 6 | ER PPC Velocity 7.5% | ER PPC Cooldown 2%
RL Omnipod - Additional Structure 12
LL Omnipod - Additional Structure 12

For a total of 15% ER PPC Velocity, 4% ER PPC Cooldown and the LA/RA aren't too much stronger.

Is this because the C-ER PPC is "stronger" (lol)? Is that why no one uses the C-ER PPC except mechs that need to put the biggest weapon in their limited hardpoints as possible to be viable or Assaults who have nothing better to use?

I see lots of IS mechs with ER PPCs though this is also due to the fact that IS mechs get quirks like the Panther-10K which make ER PPCs a good option.

The response on twitter is that we should not act as if these quirks make our mechs worse and that we are attempting to avoid powercreep. All I really see is an Adder that I would still never purchase and that my CW dropdeck remains SCR SCR SCR TBR/HBR.

Does this mean we can't express ourselves over this?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

InspectorG, on 16 March 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

Iterative implementation, good idea.

AMS buff?
NARC cooldown buff?
MG range buff?
LBX buff?

Just what in the Sam Holy Hell can you make out of that?

They are trying too hard to emphasize stock configurations over just accepting that stock configs don't translate over well at all.
The problem with quirks oriented towards the meta is that they are chasing it, rather than changing it through smart manipulation. Quirks should make a mech fit a certain role within MWO rather than chasing canon configurations or the current meta.

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 16 March 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

They are trying too hard to emphasize stock configurations over just accepting that stock configs don't translate over well at all.
The problem with quirks oriented towards the meta is that they are chasing it, rather than changing it through smart manipulation. Quirks should make a mech fit a certain role within MWO rather than chasing canon configurations or the current meta.

The thing is that having quirks that pertain loosely to the stock loadout's role (not necessarily exact guns, but overall purpose) could actually be viable if they were implemented smartly. But that's the key...smartly. Not crap like giving minuscule percentages for a bunch of random weapons.



As a case study, let's look at the Badder D.
ADR-D STOCK

So for guns we have:
1x ERLL
1x UAC/5
2x SSRM2

So if we wanted to quirk it to follow the stock loadout's role, it might look something to this effect... Also note that all values are just placeholders for demonstration, they might be either too weak or too strong in actual gameplay.


ADR-D Left Arm: -10% Large Class Energy Duration
Logic: The stock weapon in this arm is a CERLL, and its main weakness is having a very long duration. This helps alleviate that.

ADR-D Left Torso: +10% Streak SRM Cooldown
Logic: It's clear that the SSRMs on this build were meant as backup or self-defense weapons. Increasing their damage output/DPS emphasizes this.

ADR-D Right Torso: +10% Streak SRM Cooldown
Logic: It's clear that the SSRMs on this build were meant as backup or self-defense weapons. Increasing their damage output/DPS emphasizes this.

ADR-D Right Arm: -10% Ultra AC Jam Chance, +7.5% Ballistic Cooldown, +7.5% Class 5 Autocannon Cooldown
Logic: The jam chance thing helps the UAC be a better primary source of ranged damage output, as does the cooldown buff.

The CT and legs are harder to figure out in the heat of the moment, but you get the idea.



Stock-inspired quirks actually could be decent if PGI tried hard enough...but instead we get dumb things like +12.5% missile range on the Zeus.


*Note: I used weapon families instead of specific weapons to help add more flavor to Omni quirks and differentiate them from IS quirks.

Edited by FupDup, 16 March 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[InspectorG]

WM Quicksilver, on 16 March 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

They are trying too hard to emphasize stock configurations over just accepting that stock configs don't translate over well at all.

YES. This exactly.

Makes sense if they were to implement a Stock only mode, but, i dont see that happening with CW needing more development.

[El Bandito]

Badder is actually not bad.

[kf envy]

El Bandito, on 16 March 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Badder is actually not bad.

i know i see far more badders then i see nova heck i even see more ice ferrets per game then novas

[Telmasa]

In my opinion, this is how quirks should have been done in the first place - IS included; incremental increases, rather than going out to the other extreme with 50% quirks...we've seen how badly that skews the game (tdr9s, firestarters, etc.).

[Shadow Magnet]

Telmasa, on 16 March 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

In my opinion, this is how quirks should have been done in the first place - IS included; incremental increases, rather than going out to the other extreme with 50% quirks...we've seen how badly that skews the game (tdr9s, firestarters, etc.).

Well, but still the actual quirk types (not the values) are useless. We know that PGI has very limited resources to advance MWO. Why they waste precious Dev & testing time on such tiny quirks? 1-2% won't have a noticeable effect and for sure these quirks won't make more players dropping in Adders, Summoners etc. Nobody was asking for 50% or even 25% quirks. But 5-10% would have been a good start. Should the devs spend the next couple of months on +1% quirk buffing the same clan mechs again and again? We got other urgent problems to fix!

Sorry, but this is just another fail by PGI, a very hard fail. I am starting to lose faith in PGI, seriously asking myself why I spent money on Wave 3. Many of the recent quirk changes did not make any real sense at all, it is only getting worse every time. Why should I support a company that is seemingly clueless?

[Soy]

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Lopsided quirks like that would make no sense whatsoever. Someone who likes their PPC in the right arm and their missiles in the left gets a big bonus to each, but someone who flips that arrangement gets nothing? No no, Pirahna’s got the right of it.

Thanks for mentioning this cuz that would drive me nuts, personally.

[Widowmaker1981]

No energy heat generation on the Adder. None. Not even an 'iterative' 2%

Not all quirks are created equal, and no heat generation = no good. even the Timberwolf can get 5% energy heat reduction.

What. The. Actual. Fork.

Take a look at the Panther, and try to make the adder its equal.. it has worse PPCs (because 9R with standard PPCs @ 675m optimal and 10 pp dmg for 10 heat beats the Badders 10pp dmg with 2.5-5 semi useless splash for 15 heat), is slower and cannot jump. Bare minimum of 20% ERPPC heat (10/10) is called for.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 March 2015 - 12:43 AM.

[Paigan]

1453 R, on 16 March 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

[...]
The Badder’s problem is that it’s a slow light in a game where slow lights have no real place or purpose.
[...]

I agree in principle that the new quirks concept is a good thing (smaller but more quirks).

But I respectfully disagree on the judgement of the Adder, especially the quoted sentence.

All this Adder bashing is only based on an emotional view that the Adder is per se bad.
It is actually quite good if you use is objectively.

It will never be a forward scouting ECM Raven oder a Hit&Run Huggin. Yes.
But it does not have to be.
Not all lights have to be superfast.
See it more as a "light assault" that sticks with the big guys and brings additional firepower.

No one says it MUST be played with dual-PPCs. That's a >20 year old RPG-inspired theoretical build that is just plain stupid in combat (as are PPCs in general if they are not massively buffed by quirks).

I ran a 4xERML build with it and scored several hundred damage and 3 kills multiple times.
I have killed heavy mechs in head on duels with it simply because of superior (firepower x heat buffer) and smaller silhouette with proper aim to center torso.

It has a huge amount of advantages (even before quirks) that you just have to use correctly:
- It is incredibly flat, at least if you are used to playing heaves. Almost every rock or team mates becomes a full-sized cover. That is a HUGE advantages
- It is so small that assaults can fire over its head without hitting it. Meaning you have TWO mechs firing at a target from moreless the same position.
- It has good weapon positions (as you mentioned)
- It has relatively much tonnage for equipment thanks to the small reactor
- It is relatively agile, again at least compared to a heavy/assault.
- It has half of its weapons in the torso, which is very noticable for a light
- AND: it gets astonishingly often completely ignored by enemies because the other mechs pose more threat that have to be dealt with first. Muhahaha...

See it this way:
The usually "overpowered" TBR build is something like 4xERML 2xLPL (or variations).
The Adder has half of that!
And MORE than half the heatsinks. It can fire its 4xERML 5-6 times bevore heat becomes a problem.
In the end and all in all, that means it has nearly the damage potential of the so much feared TBR, albeit not the same alpha strike. Just smaller, swifter, faster.

The Stormcrow is VERY similar (lots of wellmounted lasers or missiles, 90 kph) and is considered the best mech in the game.

Then why is its little brother all of a sudden the worst mech?

It is actually really good, just as the SCR.
It has advantages (much flatter and agile), it has disadvantages (less weapons and torso yaw).
Stop blinding yourself by emotional crowd whining.

The only real problem it has is the fixed flamer. Yes, that's a disadvantage. A disadvantage of 0.5 tons.
Personally, I try to make the best of it and flame those pesky weeds on Viridian Bog at the start of a match, just for fun (I know they don't die ... if only they did!)

Getting my little Killer buffed because of all the emotionally driven whining is still nice, of course.

Edited by Paigan, 17 March 2015 - 01:03 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

You guys also need to remember targeting computers. Too much ERPPC velocity, and heat reduction quirks + a targeting computer stack = Thunderbolt 9S mk2...

Its part of the reason why im waiting for ANY erppc buffs added to the warhawk prime, since i run a quad PPC with a mk3 targeting computer. any buffs, velocity, heat reduction or otherwise to that mech would make it incredibly powerful...to me at least, since my damage would get downrage a lot better, and any heat reduction quirks means I can squeeze an extra shot into my PPC salvoes before i have to cool off...currently sitting at around 6 ppcs in a row..8 after a short cooloff.

hell even range would be awesome, since i run it with a range module already. Basically any energy quirks would make me one happy....camper...lol

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 17 March 2015 - 01:01 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

xXBagheeraXx, on 17 March 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

You guys also need to remember targeting computers. Too much ERPPC velocity, and heat reduction quirks + a targeting computer stack = Thunderbolt 9S mk2...

Its part of the reason why im waiting for ANY erppc buffs added to the warhawk prime, since i run a quad PPC with a mk3 targeting computer. any buffs, velocity, heat reduction or otherwise to that mech would make it incredibly powerful...to me at least, since my damage would get downrage a lot better, and any heat reduction quirks means I can squeeze an extra shot into my PPC salvoes before i have to cool off...currently sitting at around 6 ppcs in a row..8 after a short cooloff.

hell even range would be awesome, since i run it with a range module already. Basically any energy quirks would make me one happy....camper...lol

TCs give very minimal projectile speed .. iirc 4.5% for the mk1 (which is the only one 90% of people use because value per ton).. just adjust quirks with the use a of a TC Mk1 in mind. If you want to use loads of tonnage that could otherwise be used on heatsinks for a bigger TC then... well, you should get the benefit for it.