137 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

I tend to find players go through a decent progression of skill development in MW:O (of course, there are always exceptions to it):
- They start off with LRMs, SSRMs and lasers typically as their weapons of choice, relying more on LRMs/SSRMs to deal their damage.
- As they gain more skills and confidence, they tend to start to experiment with SRMs and lasers instead.
- As they develop more accuracy skills, gain more map knowledge and more experience, many players take a hand at using Jump Jets and ACs/PPCs. They typically play at sniping if not do a little jump sniping.
- By this point, they've seen other weapon combo's effectiveness on the battlefield, and they wish to try it themselves. They start to try using Gauss rifles and any/all other weapon systems in the game.
- Their favoring of LRMs and SSRMs vary during this development, and some players continue to revert back to old favorite designs, or maintain a tiny piece of their root play in mechs. If they hit a wall, many go back a step till they progress their skills again and then try direct fire pin point weapon systems again.

Following this progression I've seen from many new players, the Catapult will be a solid chassis choice, and the A1 probably will make for a good beginning chassis. As they level that chassis up, they can go more energy heavy, right on to using (ER)PPCs, either maintaining LRMs/SSRMs or moving onto SRMs in their skill progression. By the time they have two Catapults owned/skilled, they typically feel ready for the K2, which will have the direct fire weapons to help fill in their skills.

The only other mech I'd suggest would have been a Hunchback for a new user. There is a Hunchback for every occasion (except for Jump Jet skills). The Shadowhawk also remains a good choice, having a well mixed platform on every variant of the chassis. (For Inner Sphere mechs. I'm not familiar enough with clan mechs besides to say Stormcrow/Timberwolf.)

Sadly, I can be of no farther help in this thread or to the OP, as I have never owned a Catapult. I could make theory builds he could test out, but I would not have tested their viability before hand so I wouldn't know their combat effectiveness. If it was a Hunchback, Shadowhawk or several other different mech chassis, I'd be of more help.


Only other piece of advice I can give the OP, if you wish to friend me and you see me on in game (friend me in game, if you need help on the social aspect of the game, just ask), ask if I wish to join you. I don't have a problem playing wingman to just about anyone. Then I could give advice more directly, and/or try to make you live longer by protecting you.

[NecessaryWeevil]

The best mech and the best weapons system is the one you are most effective with and, most importantly, enjoy using.

Yes, a Direwolf dripping with weapons is a lethal weapon in many player's hands. In mine, it's 100 tons of soon-to-be-scrap. And yet, when the sky is raining LRMs from every direction, it's because I'm far in your rear with my ECM Spider and a TAG trained on your back.

[JC Daxion]

Richter Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Or you could not use LRMs at all and not handicap yourself by dealing unfocused damage. All of the best competitive teams and most successful CW teams do not use LRMs, full stop.

Many people dont really care about 12 man competitive play. It's the reason why so many of us casual, or even the guys that play 20+ hours a week, just play in pugs and really enjoy it. Often in those pugs, there are some amazing battles with amazing players after the lower ELO players drop. What the competitive teams do really has nothing to do with the PUG group life.

In PUG's LRM's can be extremely effective for cover fire, taking advantage of a mech that gets out of position, Playing as a Lurmisher, and taking down a capper as he tries to jet away when playing on conquest. I've played with groups on coms before and did fairly well over all. We got rolled some times or did the rolling, and sometimes it's close.. just like PUG's but in a different way, the game play is totally different. What works on competitive 12 mans, often is not what works in a pug, because people are not focusing on the same target, heck sometimes not even working in unison, or maybe 2 or 3 players in the other PUG, does something nuts that would never be thought on on a 12 man, cause it wouldn't work. Yet in a pug, some times the crazier the better.

And of course there are people that don't have the best PING or Frame rates, that using a lock weapon helps them tremendously, Or perhaps someone just doesn't have the reaction time to play a light, or a sniper or what ever is the goto flavor of the month for 12 mans.. You know like that great fun meta of playing the 3 PPC thunderbolt, or playing in clan wars with nothing but timber wolves, hellbringer and stormcrows, i was bored after one match fighting the same mech over and over again.

There are also those players that LRM's will vastly improve their game, and by learning good piloting skills, and pulling damage good damage they are helping the team win. Maybe they didn't Shoot the mech in the left torso 3 times and kill um, But they stripped off more than enough armor with 3 LRM 30 rounds, and your teammate over on the right flank, was able to pin-point that hole you opened and now that is one dead mech.

the real Fact is, LRM's can still be effective in PUG's, It really doesn't mater if people think they are not, Because they are. But in the end the OP asked about a catapult C1, He did not ask about competitive 12 man play

Edited by JC Daxion, 20 March 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Michal R, on 18 March 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

XL 300, LRM 15 + modules, 3x ML, 1xTAG, BAP, Sensor Range Module.

Have fun

Yes, that is viable too, But i really love the 3 MPL's as the back up weapon, they trash lights, and pack a huge punch on any hole your LRM's have opened up.

[FerrolupisXIII]

JC Daxion, on 20 March 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Yes, that is viable too, But i really love the 3 MPL's as the back up weapon, they trash lights, and pack a huge punch on any hole your LRM's have opened up.

You're an LRM mech, no one is scared of 3 MPLs except other LRM mechs. many light mechs these days carry more firepower than that. that's three tons over the mediums you could have used on ammo, or heat sinks, armor, etc etc. i personally never found them to be that much better than the 3 mediums (18 damage vs 15) that i wanted to devote the tonnage.

by no means are they a bad choice, and of course very much up to personal preference. if you like 'em keep 'em

[YCSLiesmith]

yeah my firestarters have 6 mpls, or 8 spls. a mech with three mpls can eventually kill me but it takes like four or five solid hits in one place. meanwhile im coring out your back armor in three hits.

[JC Daxion]

FerrolupisXIII, on 20 March 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

You're an LRM mech, no one is scared of 3 MPLs except other LRM mechs. many light mechs these days carry more firepower than that. that's three tons over the mediums you could have used on ammo, or heat sinks, armor, etc etc. i personally never found them to be that much better than the 3 mediums (18 damage vs 15) that i wanted to devote the tonnage.

by no means are they a bad choice, and of course very much up to personal preference. if you like 'em keep 'em

3 MPL's is almost a AC-20 hit so not sure why that isn't a hit you would wan't to avoid, i actually use the combo on many of my mechs and have had good success with them, 3-4 MPL's combined with other weapons. But the biggest difference is the burn time, the MPL's are much faster firing, so that means you can almost always do full pin-point damage before someone can twist out, unlike the 1 second burn of a ML, and the cool down+ range quirk+ range module they work pretty well on the catapult. Let's also not forget the faster fire time, can let you twist and spread damage, before a ML equipped mech is even done firing, you are already showing them your arm, and in a cat that can mean the difference between getting CT cored, and not.

I don't really need the extra tonnage for missiles, as i typically play in the Lurmisher range, aka 200-400, Lobbing LRM's over brawlers, and finishing off damaged mechs with the MPL's to save the ammo for more important targets of opportunity. Heat is the other issue, so i can understand wanting extra heat sinks, as this mech can run hot, But so do tons of others so it seems like more often than not when battles are extended, you aren't firing all your weapons anyway. Heck even my Ultra MPL quirked T-bolt 5SS, you end up going into conserve mode in longer fights having to fire smaller amounts of weapons, unless you can completely disengage and cool down, which can be hard to do mid brawl with any sort of light support
.

But i guess it just goes to say, there is more than one way to "play" a cat..

[FerrolupisXIII]

JC Daxion, on 21 March 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

*snip*

oh im well aware of the ups and downs on the MPL vs the ML for IS mechs. it isnt so much people dont want to avoid the hit, its that in comparison many mechs hit a lot harder. so despite the ac-20 comparison, its just not scary. by the same thought the ML's is like being hit with a gauss. like i said for this particular mech i don't find them to be worth the 3 tons for 3 points of damage and slightly better precision. I also enjoy sitting around the 300-400m mark, however i tend to focus on the LRMS if im carrying them, not landing hits that are mostly outside optimal for my lasers. especially with MPL the heat isnt worth it to me. the three ML's hit nearly as hard and i tend to find if you're brawling in an LRM cat you have messed up. a canny pilot will wait for you to start twisting back in for your MPL shot and just drop you, not waste the shot into your side/arm/back. i've been known to tickle someone with 1-2 weapons to bait them into showing their torsos again. there's plenty to debate about it, really.

we're deffinetly in agreement, more than one way to play the good ol' Kitty.

[Tesunie]

FerrolupisXIII, on 21 March 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

Spoiler

oh im well aware of the ups and downs on the MPL vs the ML for IS mechs. it isnt so much people dont want to avoid the hit, its that in comparison many mechs hit a lot harder. so despite the ac-20 comparison, its just not scary. by the same thought the ML's is like being hit with a gauss. like i said for this particular mech i don't find them to be worth the 3 tons for 3 points of damage and slightly better precision. I also enjoy sitting around the 300-400m mark, however i tend to focus on the LRMS if im carrying them, not landing hits that are mostly outside optimal for my lasers. especially with MPL the heat isnt worth it to me. the three ML's hit nearly as hard and i tend to find if you're brawling in an LRM cat you have messed up. a canny pilot will wait for you to start twisting back in for your MPL shot and just drop you, not waste the shot into your side/arm/back. i've been known to tickle someone with 1-2 weapons to bait them into showing their torsos again. there's plenty to debate about it, really.

we're deffinetly in agreement, more than one way to play the good ol' Kitty.

Just to make note: They have changed pulse laser heat rates. They now (last I understood) produce the same heat as a standard laser. (At least for medium lasers.)

That is all. Continue on.

Edited by Tesunie, 21 March 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[_____]

I would say the biggest argument against using the LRM-heavy Catapults right now is that there are a bunch of maps that make LRMs nearly useless other than maybe for suppression, And then there are several others that are not quite as bad for LRM boats but still makes you more or less wasted tonnage for your team. So overall a "normal" Catapult's potential contribution to the team is moderate to none in about 2/3 of the maps in MWO. Compare that to ACs and lasers, there's no map where those weapon systems become completely useless.

And just echoing what Liesmith says, even on the LRM friendly maps, your damage is spread and is just not quality damage - even with LOS and Artemis and TAG. Just a few hours ago, I was on Canyon, one of the better LRM maps, I put about 500 missiles into a King Crab at 350m away with Artemis and TAG on him at all times and it didn't go down. Ended that match with a little under 1300 damage and zero kills.

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 22 March 2015 - 04:04 AM.

[Madcap72]

BlackhawkSC, on 22 March 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

I would say the biggest argument against using the LRM-heavy Catapults right now is that there are a bunch of maps that make LRMs nearly useless other than maybe for suppression, And then there are several others that are not quite as bad for LRM boats but still makes you more or less wasted tonnage for your team. So overall a "normal" Catapult's potential contribution to the team is moderate to none in about 2/3 of the maps in MWO. Compare that to ACs and lasers, there's no map where those weapon systems become completely useless.

And just echoing what Liesmith says, even on the LRM friendly maps, your damage is spread and is just not quality damage - even with LOS and Artemis and TAG. Just a few hours ago, I was on Canyon, one of the better LRM maps, I put about 500 missiles into a King Crab at 350m away with Artemis and TAG on him at all times and it didn't go down. Ended that match with a little under 1300 damage and zero kills.

There isn't a single map that makes LRM's useless if you know the maps.

Saying that only means you don't know the maps.

[ExoForce]

Catapult equals LRMs. MPLs do more damage then MLs. Tag is more valuable then Artemis.
Fast and cheap way to get 300XL is to buy Jenner-F(C) on sale. JJs are good thing.
Catapult has funny ears. Use it for PUG training, then buy better LRM boat.
I love the sound of LRMs rain. The Earth is not round, it is an ellipsoid.
More questions?

Edited by ExoForce, 22 March 2015 - 04:37 AM.

[Kyynele]

Madcap72, on 22 March 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

There isn't a single map that makes LRM's useless if you know the maps.

Saying that only means you don't know the maps.

Any great LRM tips for skirmish matches where the opposing force just camps the basement of HPG manifold or the tunnel/lower level in Crimson Straits? Let's add to that that the opposing force killed a scout and waiting for them to come out isn't a winning option?

Not sure if you just regularly get some really not-so-great-opponents, or if you just don't really know the maps.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Tesunie, on 21 March 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

Just to make note: They have changed pulse laser heat rates. They now (last I understood) produce the same heat as a standard laser. (At least for medium lasers.)

That is all. Continue on.

well would you look at that, they are! how did i miss that. anyways, still stand by personally not wanting to spend 3 extra tons on my backup weapons when i could be investing in my primary system. *shrug*

[ExoForce]

Kyynele, on 22 March 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

Any great LRM tips for skirmish matches where the opposing force just camps the basement of HPG manifold or the tunnel/lower level in Crimson Straits?
SNIP

Not LRM tip, but You use air strike (not arty). It comes under certain angle so it can hit target that has cover above it. I use it on HPG if enemy is located under antenna and I am below near the platform, works in River City passage and on the 2 entrances to Crimson tunnel. It will do minor damage (maybe C-bill assist bonus), but may force (scare) enemy to move and expose them to Your Tag or your teammates. Many players expects arty when they see the smoke so will not move if covered, thus forgeting their legs exposed to air strike. Even smoke can shake average player concentration so they can make position error.

[YCSLiesmith]

Madcap72, on 22 March 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

There isn't a single map that makes LRM's useless if you know the maps.

Saying that only means you don't know the maps.

it's true, there isn't one single map. it's all the maps. LRMs are straight garbage.

Look, for real I've gone into some detail about how and why LRMs are the single worst weapon in this game. They are worse than flamers, because at least you can put a flamer in your head and it looks like you are breathing fire. thats all it takes to beat LRMs for the 2nd to last spot. Because LRMs are impossibly, tragically bad.

Kyynele, on 22 March 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

Any great LRM tips for skirmish matches where the opposing force just camps the basement of HPG manifold or the tunnel/lower level in Crimson Straits? Let's add to that that the opposing force killed a scout and waiting for them to come out isn't a winning option?

Not sure if you just regularly get some really not-so-great-opponents, or if you just don't really know the maps.

Nope. there are no tips to help with this, because LRMs are useless in this circumstance. Amusingly, this is one of the many ways that LRMs can be made useless. others include but are not limited to: ecm, ams, enemies knowing how to play, and enemies having lights who are willing to hunt for you.

[Tesunie]

YCSLiesmith, on 22 March 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Your point was made three pages ago. And two pages ago. And one page ago...

[YCSLiesmith]

Tesunie, on 22 March 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Your point was made three pages ago. And two pages ago. And one page ago...

You keep complaining about my posts and contributing nothing and that's fine for you, but when people in the New Player Help forum ask if LRMs are any good i'm not going to pretend they arent the worst weapon in the game.

You're not a new player but you do get beat (by my unit) all the time so maybe you should take my advice as well.

[Tesunie]

YCSLiesmith, on 22 March 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

You keep complaining about my posts and contributing nothing and that's fine for you, but when people in the New Player Help forum ask if LRMs are any good i'm not going to pretend they arent the worst weapon in the game.

You're not a new player but you do get beat (by my unit) all the time so maybe you should take my advice as well.

OP did not ask if LRMs were good. He asked for advice on a Catapult. You misunderstand the OP's request. We know your opinion of LRMs. We got it on the first page, the second page, the third page and even the fourth page. I think we got it. Move on.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Catapult C1 is what I'm planning on getting once I get enough Mechbays so I can hold onto one. x2 LRM15 (you can upgrade them to be equipped with Artemis if you want but those work best when you have line of sight (LoS) on your target. Medium lasers are usually the way to go but some players do equip Large lasers. It's entirely up to you how you want to go about it though regardless of what anyone says.

Moat Drifter, on 17 March 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

I decided on the Catapult CPLT-C1 (because I like jumping, especially in that horrid Viridian Bog map - am I right????) but as far as weapons are concerned, I am not sure what is the best to equip it with.

Pulse lasers in mwomercs work where you don't have to hold your target as long to deal full damage with them.
Regular lasers require you to hold your target as they have a longer duration than Pulse lasers do.
Pulse lasers have a shorter range than Regular lasers but since they have a shorter duration, they cycle faster but they also weigh more.
If you're not very good at keeping your target, go with the Pulse lasers.

Moat Drifter, on 17 March 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Since I am somewhat of a long-range and medium-range fighter, I have the two LRM 15 (sadly does not with Artemis :-( ) but for the other weapons, I am not sure if pulse lasers work best or if should go with the normal lasers (medium and or large)...

AMS is good if you have the extra space/tonnage to equip. They're not mandatory but they do help a little when it comes to finding yourself assaulted by LRM boats. Once equipped you are able to toggle them on/off as well so you don't burn through them when the enemy is just throwing them without chance of hitting you or or team (like when you're in the tunnel of River City for example)

Moat Drifter, on 17 March 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

I would normally put on an AMS system, but since it takes up too much slots and therefore limits the number of weapons or equipment I can put on, I tend to leave it off.

LRM15 + artemis, x4 tons of ammo
four medium lasers or two med pulse lasers
CASE on each ST and x3 jumpjets
double heat sink upgrade
AMS with one ton of ammunition.

Moat Drifter, on 17 March 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good CPLT-C1 build (load-out)?

Much appreciated,
Moat D.

Edited by RazorbeastFXK3, 22 March 2015 - 07:41 PM.