102 replies to this topic

[Psydotek]

I don't believe I've seen a thread dedicated to this "issue" yet. How will the difficulty of hitting a short range target with PPCs and LRMs be represented in the game? (Or how should the short range weakness of PPCs and LRMS be represented in the game?)

In previous games, PPCs were just different colored lasers and LRMs traveled in a straight line to the target (MW4 they arced up at long range but traveled in a straight line at short range). Both were great at all ranges and the only downside of firing at close range was some splash damage.

Perhaps LRMs could always have a forced upward arc (so even if you have a missile lock, the missiles won't be able to curve down in time to hit a short range target)? No ability to lock on inside the minimum range? Loss of missile lock if the target slips inside minimum range before the missiles are fired?

As for PPCs, perhaps spawn the PPC bolt at a certain range? Maybe have the PPC bolt arc wildly/randomly from the cannon to the short range mark making it difficult to hit anything up close (maybe you'll score a hit 1/10 times, maybe you'll hit your lancemate instead)?

Any other ideas? Throw them out here.

[Mechteric]

Even though I like MWLL, I think the arc enforced minimum range isn't the best way to go (especially if this game is trying to go for closer range urban combat in general). It might be better with a wider spread pattern so the missiles hit all over the place and some misses. Up close maybe you could still hit, but a lot more might miss. But having minimum arming distance doesn't seem right either, even in CBT you had a chance to score a hit up close.


As for PPCs, just having it do less damage up close would be sufficient. Messing arbitrarily with players accuracy can't be good thing in this case.

Edited by capperdeluxe, 26 November 2011 - 07:10 PM.

[DCleric]

Have a minimum arming distance for the missiles, as for the PPC I don't know how you can explain it maybe a safety interlock but again have a minimum distance for it to fire.Seems to me to be the easiest fix.

[feor]

IIRC In the background LRMs have a minimum range because the warheads can take upwards of a second to arm after leaving the launcher. (Clan LRMs are more reliable, and so arm as soon as they leave the launcher) There were even old advanced rules where you could "hot load" LRMs to remove the minimum range, at the risk of your launcher exploding for the damage value of those LRMs if it took a critical hit.

In MW:O this could easily be represented as if you're within minimum range some of the LRMs simply bounce off the enemy, rather than exploding.

Don't remember for sure why PPCs have minimum range, something about focusing, IIRC.

[Mechteric]

feor, on 26 November 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

IIRC In the background LRMs have a minimum range because the warheads can take upwards of a second to arm after leaving the launcher.

Don't remember for sure why PPCs have minimum range, something about focusing, IIRC.

as I recall, in CBT (at least the good ol' basic ruleset) you only got a to-hit modifier when within the minimum range of either the PPC or LRM. So even though the chances of hitting got worse as you closed in, it was still possible with a good roll of the dice with no other side effects. You're already building up the excess heat/using the ammo, why does there really need to be any further drawback for these weapons than decreasing their damage potential?

Edited by capperdeluxe, 26 November 2011 - 07:18 PM.

[Iron Horse]

feor, on 26 November 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

IIRC In the background LRMs have a minimum range because the warheads can take upwards of a second to arm after leaving the launcher. (Clan LRMs are more reliable, and so arm as soon as they leave the launcher) There were even old advanced rules where you could "hot load" LRMs to remove the minimum range, at the risk of your launcher exploding for the damage value of those LRMs if it took a critical hit.

In MW:O this could easily be represented as if you're within minimum range some of the LRMs simply bounce off the enemy, rather than exploding.

They should still do physical damage (at ~1 point each), but would be funny if they explode after the fact, damaging anyone in range (including you for firing them so close!)

[NetRDR]

for game play id be looking for something like this

for lrms at below min range to only do ballistic damage maybe a few warheads to detonate, but if they hit a cockpit still goin to be sore and keep splash damage also at close range your going to absorb more of the heat

as for ppc's below min distance would reduce damage, now as for other penalty's u could have the ppc feed back to your mech give u a short/ computer distortion the same as what the other person would experience also may damage the weapon, also at close range your going to absorb more of the heat and maybe some of the damage

[Kenyon Burguess]

in the video the warhammers PPC's went wild. I didnt really like how that looked and would much prefer to see greatly reduced damage at short range. missles can just dud off the opponent if necessary..

[Belrick]

Not arming properly would be a decent. I sorta enjoy how they work in MWLL though.

I'm not sure close range ppc is really a problem to be honest. The weapon has a decently long cooldown, so the tradeoff is that you lose a boatload of dps if you miss even once.

[SGT Unther]

I remember in in MW2 that LRMs fired one at a time and at a slow rate and when I tried to use them at close range I just ended spraying them all over the place and maybe 3 of the 10 hit the target and do damage

[UncleKulikov]

capperdeluxe, on 26 November 2011 - 07:07 PM, said:

But having minimum arming distance doesn't seem right either, even in CBT you had a chance to score a hit up close.

Right, at a -7 to hit. The arming time is how they explain the negative to hit penalty.

Edited by UncleKulikov, 26 November 2011 - 07:45 PM.

[Datum]

I'd imagined PPC's as focusing a certain distance in front of the mech, so it's not harder to hit, but does sub-par damage at close range, sorta like using a magnifying glass to burn ants.

The LRM's I imagine a set amount of time before they start tracking the targeted mech, so if it's too close then the general inaccuracy will be too much to correct.

[Uncl Munkeh]

Are PPCs really that much of a concern?

[Psydotek]

feor, on 26 November 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

...Don't remember for sure why PPCs have minimum range, something about focusing, IIRC.

It was supposed to be due to the PPC field inhibitor which was to protect the pilot & 'mech from massive electronic feedback from a close range PPC strike (which could potentially fry circuits and brains). This is one reason why PPCs are supposed to be so effective, they don't just damage armor but mess with electronics.

Uncle Monkey, on 26 November 2011 - 08:15 PM, said:

Are PPCs really that much of a concern?

I believe it should be. Otherwise they are essentially Large Lasers with different colors.

Edited by Psydotek, 26 November 2011 - 08:35 PM.

[shintakie]

Accordin to the wiki the reason for PPC minimum range was the field inhibitor thingamajig, but also accordin to that wiki it states that the only thing it did was reduce the damage of the PPC while within 90 meters of a target. It also stated that you could shut off this inhibitor, but you could somehow damage your machine. Not sure how the second could very easily be implemented in game, but the first seems like it'd be easy enough to code. Distance > 90 = half damage.

Psydotek, on 26 November 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

I believe it should be. Otherwise they are essentially Large Lasers with different colors.

Dont PPC's do a ton more damage and generate a ton more heat than large lasers?

[Psydotek]

shintakie, on 26 November 2011 - 08:47 PM, said:

Dont PPC's do a ton more damage and generate a ton more heat than large lasers?

Not a ton more, just a little more with a little more range. Other than that, without some extra characteristics, they are essentially large[r] lasers.

Edit: The ERPPCs (clan and IS) and Heavy PPCs do way more damage and produce alot more heat, but those probably won't be seen in the game right away.

Edited by Psydotek, 26 November 2011 - 09:03 PM.

[Cyttorak]

Good topic, OP. The novels are one source of canon (kinda), but as the rulebooks for the TT state, there was a certain amount of "artistic license" in there and the rulebooks should trump the novels.
If the TT is the "hard canon", and if the devs are trying to follow that, then there shouldn't be a reduction of damage for either LRMs or PPCs at short range, it's just harder to hit.
...don't know if that's the way the devs see it, but I'm just sayin'.

[Dlardrageth]

PGI might be able to just introduce a routine that checks how long a given LRM has flown before impact. If that number is too low, it was too close-range, and the warhead fuze will not trigger. Basically a dud.

PPCs might be harder to do. Apart from artificially creating something like a "backlash", that takes out your PPC for good when you fire at too close a range (fuses some coils together or whatever, not sure I'd like that), hard to come up with anything fancy. The whole field inhibitor thing also always seemed more like an explanatory workaround to me. If one could go by the assumption the main issue being that you need some minimal range to actually build up a solid enough "ray" for the PPC, perhaps having the characteristics could be chnaged at very close ranges. Instead of having a highly focused and accurtae weapon you get stuck with some sort of mini-shotgun that does little damage over a big area. Bit like a X-AC (with reduced total dmg potential ofc).

[Basch]

Dmg from LRMs and PPCs should not be reduced, the idea for the LRMs to have an inability to lock at close range is acceptable and thay should just fly wildly while still activating the warhead which should go off after 40m from the launch. As for the PPC the cost is in heat generated and CD which are both fairly big. That is speaking at the farthest close range, at point blank the splash damage from both the LRMs and PPC should hit you as well as generating addetional heat.

[Uncl Munkeh]

Basch, on 26 November 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

Dmg from LRMs and PPCs should not be reduced, the idea for the LRMs to have an inability to lock at close range is acceptable and thay should just fly wildly while still activating the warhead which should go off after 40m from the launch. As for the PPC the cost is in heat generated and CD which are both fairly big. That is speaking at the farthest close range, at point blank the splash damage from both the LRMs and PPC should hit you as well as generating addetional heat.

Basch makes some sense here. The reason to not use them may just be all the splash damage....