124 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Averen, on 19 March 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

Compared to a 400m (or 414) cerml glee about the quirked 330m is indeed pathetic, mind that's like one of the IS strongest brawlers. Also, a good hellbringer pilot would just try to leg the thunderbolt.

Using something like this I can start firing at 600m and laught about that silly thunderwub:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c0db42f0b3671d
Or this for more efficiency:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...feb0192fad10e0f

Really, the wub would be basically with no armor left on one leg. And that's the extra opening salvo the hellbringer gets for his range.

Compare proper weapons at least...the CMPL is 330m range with no quirks...what was the range on the wubberthud? Oh, I remember now, basically the same thing, actually a bit further...

[Gyrok]

Red1769, on 19 March 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

We'll agree to disagree to an extent. Agreed that the Hellbringer is certainly tier 2, potentially tier 1. As much as I hate power creep, the IS also just doesn't have a worthwhile heavy in this timeline, aside from the Maruader, but we all know that one isn't an option. The Black Knight is also an option, but is about the only one I can think of that's within timeline of 3052. ECM isn't that big of a deal to me, the ERML issue is approaching a weapon balance standpoint (it's a dang good gun agreed). I see the DHS as a non-issue due to higher heat energy weapons, so you need spend more tonnage to them. But as a whole, Clans have better lasers (despite higher heat and longer beam durations) and SRMs, with an honorable mention of gauss rifles, while IS have better LRMs (not saying much I know) and ballistics (aside from gauss).

Personally, I don't have a Hellbringer, so this is mostly observation, since I do see a fair number of them, almost as much as I see Timberwolves. I also have an issue with your terminology...mediocre doesn't mean weak...it means neither weak or strong...medium, average. No doubt that some IS mechs need work still, but there is also far more to choose from.

We have differing experiences...mine seem pretty 50-50 on which side wins, and I only PUG.



Aside from four solid to extremely good clan mechs, yes, they are bad. And if my memory serves, Mr. Troll, the Elo difference, on average, was 100 points (whatever that means) in favor of the Clans. Whether that's a large enough difference or not is debatable. But the numbers worked out. It's also why, since the changes since then, there are some that want a new test. I would even bring my White Whale out just for it.

Actually clan SRMs spread SIGNIFICANTLY more than IS SRMs (proven from the game files pulled and displayed on reddit), and IS SRMs get more damage per SRM than clans. So, the SRM nod should actually go to the IS side, because half the SRMs you fire will not hit your intended target with clan SRMs.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Actually clan SRMs spread SIGNIFICANTLY more than IS SRMs (proven from the game files pulled and displayed on reddit), and IS SRMs get more damage per SRM than clans. So, the SRM nod should actually go to the IS side, because half the SRMs you fire will not hit your intended target with clan SRMs.

I doubt that spread is significant as you're claiming. I know there's a difference... but the spread isn't magically that different.

Even then, you're always told to run Artemis on SRM6s regardless to reduce the spread.

I've run the proverbial 5 ASRM6 Summoner to know they still smash things just fine.

[Red1769]

Fair enough. I counted the half weight/slightly less crits in there...didn't know about the spread. I knew about the .15? extra damage per missile on the IS side. Though unless you show the numbers, I don't think the spread is that significant. Out of the Clan mechs I've used extensively (just the Whale and Warhawk), I don't use SRMs in any of the builds I have. I'd probably notice it more on my brawler TBR or my TBR-D I plan on getting. But I'm too lazy to look it up myself right now.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 19 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

I doubt that spread is significant as you're claiming. I know there's a difference... but the spread isn't magically that different.

Even then, you're always told to run Artemis on SRM6s regardless to reduce the spread.

I've run the proverbial 5 ASRM6 Summoner to know they still smash things just fine.

Was it 0.2 degrees per Launcher?

0.2 something.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 March 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 19 March 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Was it 0.2 degrees per Launcher?

0.2 something.

Spread difference puts the CSRM4 with the same spread as the IS SRM6, I recall making that comparison...

Edited by Gyrok, 19 March 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[Averen]

Red1769, on 19 March 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

We'll agree to disagree to an extent. Agreed that the Hellbringer is certainly tier 2, potentially tier 1. As much as I hate power creep, the IS also just doesn't have a worthwhile heavy in this timeline, aside from the Maruader, but we all know that one isn't an option. The Black Knight is also an option, but is about the only one I can think of that's within timeline of 3052. ECM isn't that big of a deal to me, the ERML issue is approaching a weapon balance standpoint (it's a dang good gun agreed). I see the DHS as a non-issue due to higher heat energy weapons, so you need spend more tonnage to them. But as a whole, Clans have better lasers (despite higher heat and longer beam durations) and SRMs, with an honorable mention of gauss rifles, while IS have better LRMs (not saying much I know) and ballistics (aside from gauss). Personally, I don't have a Hellbringer, so this is mostly observation, since I do see a fair number of them, almost as much as I see Timberwolves. I also have an issue with your terminology...mediocre doesn't mean weak...it means neither weak or strong...medium, average. No doubt that some IS mechs need work still, but there is also far more to choose from. We have differing experiences...mine seem pretty 50-50 on which side wins, and I only PUG.

I'm also pug-only since closed.^^
Just for the laser, you have to keep in mind the cerml isn't much different in damage per heat, they just do 40% more damage with slightly less heat efficiency. Combine that clan DHS loadout (e.g. a lasercat has ~23), and it makes clan laserboats so viable. 62pts of laseralpha is insane for that kind of weapon.

IS mechs usually don't laserboat for that exact reason, but equip SRM/ACs for support. Aside from the Stalker-4N, which rules (pretty slow tho).

The mediocre mechs aren't bad. It's just when it comes to direct combat between something like an orion and e.g. a cat/hellbringer. That can get ugly fast. Not being able to stand against a mech of it's own weight and all that jazz.

Otherwise we'll just disagree on that bit. Again, i'd really like some statistics. I imagine PGIs plans for some further nerfs are based on the dominance of certain mechs.

Edited by Averen, 19 March 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Red1769]

Averen, on 19 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

I'm also pug-only since closed.^^
Just for the laser, you have to keep in mind they aren't much different in damage per heat efficiency, but with much more DHS (e.g. a lasercat has ~23). That said, IS mechs usually don't laserboat for that exact reason, but equip SRM/ACs for support. Aside from the Stalker-4N, which rules (pretty slow tho).

The mediocre mechs aren't bad. It's just when it comes to direct combat between something like an orion and e.g. a cat/hellbringer. That can get ugly fast. Not being able to stand against a mech of it's own weight and all that jazz.

Otherwise we'll just disagree on that bit. Again, i'd really like some statistics. I imagine PGIs plans for some further nerfs are based on the dominance of certain mechs.

Not with their track record. Or so it has seemed like *looks at the LRMs, Flamers, and Machine Guns*. Especially with the blanket nerfs. You're not the only one that would like some statistics and maybe some of their analysis of why they think this or that is the way it is.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Spread difference puts the CSRM4 with the same spread as the IS SRM6, I recall making that comparison...

With the tonnage savings, putting Artemis on those CSRM4s is not that big a deal.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Spread difference puts the CSRM4 with the same spread as the IS SRM6, I recall making that comparison...

Maybe.

I don't have the SRM4 values handy. Someone would have to check the .XML.

cSRM2 is 5.0, cSRM6 is 5.9.

[Averen]

Red1769, on 19 March 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

Not with their track record. Or so it has seemed like *looks at the LRMs, Flamers, and Machine Guns*. Especially with the blanket nerfs. You're not the only one that would like some statistics and maybe some of their analysis of why they think this or that is the way it is.

Well, we had pretty clear statistics how much better clan mechs are in the past. Just sit yourself into a madcat, then in an orion, and you'll get an insane difference.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 19 March 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Maybe.

I don't have the SRM4 values handy. Someone would have to check the .XML.

cSRM2 is 5.0, cSRM6 is 5.9.

What I found:

SRM2: 4.8
SRM4: 5.2
SRM6: 5.7

CSRM2: 5.0
CSRM4: 5.4
CSRM6: 5.9

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 19 March 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

What I found:

SRM2: 4.8
SRM4: 5.2
SRM6: 5.7

CSRM2: 5.0
CSRM4: 5.4
CSRM6: 5.9

Have you found what Artemis does to that? I didn't see it in that file.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 19 March 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Have you found what Artemis does to that? I didn't see it in that file.

I didn't either. All I see is that the Artemis versions inherit from the regular versions, but no specific mentions of spread difference can be seen. IDK how the fuq it works.

[Red1769]

Averen, on 19 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Well, we had pretty clear statistics how much better clan mechs are in the past. Just sit yourself into a madcat, then in an orion, and you'll get an insane difference.

Don't have an Orion and have no intention of getting one. Like I said, there really isn't a worth while IS heavy besides maybe the Black Knight in this timeline. I'm pretty particular on what mechs I grab, especially since I'm pretty casual. Personally, I'd also like more than just a flat percentage of wins and the average Elo difference. Anyways, that's pretty much all I have to say here...so glhf and maybe see ya on the battlefield. ^^

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 19 March 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I didn't either. All I see is that the Artemis versions inherit from the regular versions, but no specific mentions of spread difference can be seen. IDK how the fuq it works.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that it is some sort of multiplier, like 15 or 20%... because it does naturally affect spread significantly.

[Richard Warts]

Mawai, on 18 March 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Honestly, my hope is that PGI is ignoring all the forum angst and fan boys and are using the NUMBERS they have in their database of matches including ...

- overall mech effectiveness for every mech and variant - kills/assists/damage - over the entire player base for CW, group and solo queues
- overall clan vs IS mech effectiveness
- mech role effectiveness based on bonuses received for role based actions
- frequency and use of consumables

Based on those NUMBERS, if PGI is still nerfing clans it is because they still need nerfing to bring them into line with IS mechs.

I realize that in terms of lore the clan mechs should utterly annihilate IS mechs. Two stars vs 3 lances would NOT be a fair fight with un-normalized clan tech ... BUT this does not work with the game setup in MWO with public solo and group queues that do not split IS and clan mechs onto different teams ... and PGI can NOT do that because it would require constantly equal numbers of IS and clan players in order to avoid huge queue times for one of the sides. As a result, MWO MUST try to balance clan mechs vs IS mechs so that they are at least roughly comparable.

As it is, Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Dire Whale and Hellbringer are generally more effective than any IS mech of comparable tonnage.

This is why the clan quirks seem almost negligibly small ... they are also only the first iteration.

----------------

On the topic of clan lights .. they fill a support and close scout role in clan forces. They do it pretty well. They are comparable to the new Panther on the IS side with a top speed in the 115 range. They are better armored and carry more heavy weapons than the fast IS lights like the Jenner/Raven/Firestarter. I've done pretty well in my KItfox with various builds ... it can be effective but it just doesn't have the same playstyle as the fast IS lights.

A better option would be:

Quirks > nerfs

Edited by Tabu 73, 19 March 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 19 March 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

name me the clanlight that has mroe dps than a FS9

Hey, you are gonna get your fast ECM Light with plenty of firepower soon. I have no sympathy there.

Fate 6, on 19 March 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

-Mist Lynx compares to the Spider, but Spider has better hitboxes and speed.
-Kit Fox compares to the Raven, but Raven has better hitboxes and speed and heat efficiency.
-Adder compares to nothing really, its hitboxes are bad and it doesn't do anything well except boat streaks. However, streak Adder vs Firestarter would likely go in the Firestarter's favor. Sniper Adder can never compare to the Raven.
-Ice Ferret compares pretty closely to the Cicada which isn't even a very good mech (and can mount ECM).
-Nova compares pretty closely to the Hunchback in terms of role, and while the Nova can mount better knife fighting builds it also has the issue of significantly worse weapon mounts and hitboxes (and no armor quirks).
-Side Torso Dog is just better than the Catapult because of clan tech, but it also is far from the worst clan mech (probably #5 or #6 best)
-Summoner compares pretty closely at its tonnage with IS heavies but the 70 and 75 IS heavies aren't considered very good, either (the best IS heavies are still universally the Thunderbolts/Jagermechs)
-Gargoyle compares to the Zeus pretty closely which is still 3rd tier or maybe low 2nd tier at best
-Warhawk performs the same role as the Stalker but is worse at it because of terrible hitboxes and weapon mounts

So, of the clan mechs we rarely see most are comparable to mediocre IS mechs or just worse than the best ones. Clan Wave 3 will have its own load of problems because those mechs have nice mounts/loadouts/hitboxes(hopefully), but we can't blanket nerf just because a few mechs cause issues. Then we end up with the problem that now faces the Highlander and Victor.

All you just said had only convinced me that those so called "bad" Clan mechs are not bad at all. Not good, but not bad either.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 March 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 19 March 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Hey, you are gonna get your fast ECM Light with plenty of firepower soon. I have no sympathy there.



All you just said had only convinced me that those so called "bad" Clan mechs are not bad at all. Not good, but not bad either.

FS9 will still outdps the arctic cheetah because true dubs, and quirks.

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

FS9 will still outdps the arctic cheetah because true dubs, and quirks.

Hey, that's mostly cause of the insane SPL quirk, not the mech. Blame PGI. I too am sick of seeing Firestarters everywhere. It is like the old RVN-3L or the SDR-5D--crutch mech.

I would be happy if the Firestarter-A quirk is nerfed along with the Timbie and the Crow.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 March 2015 - 04:26 PM.