75 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

What argument is there about it sucks to be IS right now when:



ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 6.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 6.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 12.00 TURN RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 15.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 15.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 15.00 % ER PPC VELOCITY: 40.00 % ER PPC HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % ER PPC COOLDOWN: 12.50 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 12.50 % MISSILE COOLDOWN: 15.00 % MISSILE RANGE: 15.00 %

vs

ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 6.00 ER PPC VELOCITY: 7.50 % ER PPC COOLDOWN: 2.00 %

ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 6.00 ER PPC VELOCITY: 7.50 % ER PPC COOLDOWN: 2.00 %

ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 2.50 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 2.50 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 2.50 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 2.50 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 2.50 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 2.50 %

ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 2.50 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 2.50 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 2.50 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 2.50 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 2.50 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 2.50 %

Seriously?

P.S. Above is a Panther & below is the Adder.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 19 March 2015 - 03:43 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Yes Jaroth, Russ seriously thinks this is balanced.

[CyclonerM]

Side to side it looks even more facepalming *facepalm*

Sure, because a heat generation quirk for those ERPPCs was OP, quiaff?

[aniviron]

I could see the Adder's quirks being subpar if the ER PPCs actually did 15 damage where they were supposed to, but they don't. 90% of the time the extra 2.5 splash on each side is worthless. If you hit an arm, you lose half of it, if you hit a leg, you lose all of it. If you hit a side torso, you effectively lose half of it because you're not trying to shoot off an arm if you can hit the ST it's attached to instead.

The entire point of PPCs is that they put the damage where you want it if you can aim, and clan ER PPCs don't really do that. if you can aim well enough to consistently hit the CT, then the splash damage is all wasted. I can count the number of times PPC splash has done anything for me besides pad my stats on a single hand.
The IS ER PPC is just as bad- it runs far too hot for the amount of damage it does. The fact that the TDR-9S needed -50% heat for the weapon to be usable should be a clue to this, as well as the fact that at -25% heat people consider it worthless. That's right, the ER PPC still runs too hot to be of any real use when it gets a 25% cooling bonus.

The clan ER PPC is in a worse place than the IS one simply because of that splash damage though; it lets people who don't know any better pretend that it still does 15 damage when it does 10 practical damage 90+% of the time. Both ER PPCs need to have their heat dropped by two points or so, but at least the IS ER PPC mechs get quirks while clan mechs get shafted because of that worthless splash.

[Jaroth Corbett]

So since Twitter only gives me 140 characters I cannot argue properly there. You white knights need to go on vacation. You have NO case. NO argument. What values are you talking about compromising? The stats speak for themselves. The quirks are TOTALLY unbalanced. I would not even have a problem with the IS quirks had the Clans been given the proper form but they have been nerfed so heavily & now this? This is an insult to Clansmen everywhere. I urge all of you to spam Twitter until Russ & Paul get the point. This is UNACCEPTABLE. I paid for THREE Clan packs with my hard earned money (you should see my exchange rate) & I do NOT deserve to be treated this way.

Balance the quirks or buff the Clans mechs back up before the nerfhammer. Also Gauss Rifles need to be compromised.

Either

1. Keep the frailty but remove the charge firing as it has been in ALL other previous MW games

OR

2. Keep the charge firing but make the GR sturdier & not the most fragile of weapons in the arsenal.

I will not go into the canon option of powering up & down of the Gauss Rifles to prevent it from being destroyed easily seeing as PGI already had issues with MASC.

[Pariah Devalis]

My two-hundred cents:

First off, I found myself extremely disappointed by the quirkset released for the mechs this pass. The types of quirks given make no sense. Reverse speed quirks? Mobility quirks on the ferret and gargoyle? I get it, I do. These mechs are supposed to be maneuverable, but no amount of run speed can compensate for a total lack of offensive capability. Especially with the tiny maps we have. MWO is not a racing game; it is a tactical shooter/sim. How about those ERPPC velocity and cooldown quirks for the Adder? Fantastic until you consider that they only get about three shots off before redlining and can no longer shoot at all, leaving you waiting ages to cool off enough to pump another measly 10(+5ish) damage out and return to waiting.

Am I opposed to the mobility quirks or mild ERPPC quirks in and of themselves? Not at all, but priorities, my dear Watson. They needed other quirks first and foremost. Specifically either a generic ENERGY HEAT REDUCTION quirk or, alternatively, an INCREASED HEAT DISSIPATION quirk. All of them. All of the mechs listed needed it, and needed it in a big way. A minimum of 10% would be a great starting point, IMO.

When you do not have the tonnage to split between firepower AND cooling efficiency, and need to choose one OR the other, then there is a clear issue that needs solving. Being able to accelerate 25% faster or go backwards 20% faster or have god awful (or, really, ANY) machine gun quirks is just plain missing the point. To be a solid choice for their tonnage and weight class they need to bring threat to the battlefield.

Do note, I say this as someone who can routinely pull 800 damage in a gauss Adder, 600 in a Mist Lynx, and even managed a 700 damage game in an Ice Ferret one night, but that does not mean the mechs are good. Well, the Adder kinda is, but given its competition being an ECM and jump capable mech it puts it in a rough place. Point is, the effort required to get the same sort of result out of these mechs is far and away beyond what would be required in virtually any other mech of similar role.

Secondly, I find it extremely disingenuous to lead a post off saying how they want to be taking small, iterative steps with the quirk passes from here on out, yet release quirks like +40 structure for IS mechs side by side with +1% or +2% quirks for Clan mechs. Quite frankly it comes across as slightly insulting. Like they think people cannot compare one set of numbers to another, and realize they are unequally quirking things, and, worse, outright lying on their own form about taking small iterative steps. Further still, it does nothing less but STRENGTHEN the perception that PGI has a massive, massive hard-on for IS tech and is either extremely fearful of or disinterested in proper balance and equality for Clan mechs. The shear hypocrisy in the announcement alone is irritating to the extreme.

However, to the actual concept of small, iterative passes? They should have done this from the get go, with IS tech too. They went overboard with it, IMO. A starting point of 5% would have been pretty safe. However, both tech trees should have, and for proper balance need to, have small changes done rapidly until a semblance of balance is achieved.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 March 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[Torchfire Katayama]

Wait, why hasn't anyone come and pointed out Clans OP?


Edit */sarcasm*

Edited by Torchfire, 19 March 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[Michael Costanza]

You were able to fit two ERPPC on a Panther? Congrats, because many have tried and usually can't do it without overheating or stripping out virtually all their armor.

I'm sure we'd trade some of those quirks for some of those Clan quirks.. ya know, the ones that allow double heat sinks or xl engines to take up less crits, or that allow missle systems to weigh half as much or ballistic systems to allow a few tons less, or ones that allow clan lasers to out range inner sphere lasers.

Now, the Clans do need better light mechs (which should be fixed soon), but there's a reason why if you put 12 random IS pugs vs 12 random Clan pugs, the 12 random Clan pugs generally win, because Clan tech is better than quirk tech.

Torchfire, on 19 March 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Wait, why hasn't anyone come and pointed out Clans OP?

There ya go

Though I wouldn't say OP, just saying they have their advantages too.

[Gas Guzzler]

I would take neither into a competition if that makes you feel any better.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I would take neither into a competition if that makes you feel any better.

Thank you. I was wracking my brain trying to think of an intelligent response to Costanza. So many places that it went sideways there... That about sums up my feelings on it, though.

[Dakkaface]

Can't speak to the Ferret, Gargle or Adder, but the Summoner is my only Clan Heavy. On one hand, I actually really like the 'GOES FAST' quirks that the Summoner got. On the last pass the 5% speed bump and 25% Accel/Decel actually seemed to give it a niche in making it the 'oversized medium' and made it a whole lot less painful to pilot and made for a very agile mech for it's size. The SRM30 Brawl-master build I like to use was already decent before 3/17 even if it was extremely niche and got a very minor buff with 5% missile velocity and 5% tighter spread from it's arms and single side torso.

On the other, it already had the Red Paint Job quirks from the last pass and the new pass don't really provide a big bump in effectiveness. In fact the Accel/Decel is actually reduced if you run anything other than the Prime CT+RT. The Left Arm ballistic quirks on the Prime and -C pods are neat, with tighter LBX spread and reduced UAC jam chance, but there's no additional ballistic quirks on other pods to stack it with. The -D side torsos have combined 4% range boost for machine guns (boo!) and 30% range for AMS (kinda cool). The -C's Right Arm has probably the best Energy quirks with -4% heat and -2% laser duration, but it's still rather 'meh.'

I'll test out a few builds over the week, but other than the ballistic arms for the Prime and C I'm not really liking the look of the Summoner's new quirks.

[Groundpound Devalis]

I run the 10K Panther with two ERPPCs often. Only in pug drops. The heat is beyond manageable, The only set back? Isn't armor its Jump Jets for me, which on a mech that size is Huge. As was previously stated though, neither the Adder OR Panther is Tourney worthy. Pretty sure that remains Spiders and Firestarters only. Those two mechs have gotten way too much love and were already potent in the right hands.

[Valas]

If double heatsinks actually were double heatsinks, instead of only 1.4 times the heat dissipation, I think ER PPC builds on both sides would be more livable. I personally use 2 ER LL's on my Panther 10K, despite the ER PPC quirks just because the heat is far more manageable, and really don't lose that much in the way of DPS.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Clan is OP, srsly. saw an adder taking down 47 mechs single handed on sulfurous (nr. 48 exploded out of fear).

Edited by LOADED, 19 March 2015 - 05:07 PM.

[Triordinant]

The original reason for Quirks was to buff IS 'mechs so they could match up with Clan 'mechs. Originally, Clan 'mechs weren't supposed to get Quirks at all.

[Rigmoran]

Sadly, the base issue is the real problem. If you crack open any of the books, fictional or Battletech manuals, it doesn't take long to figure out that the Clans were kicking in faces early on due in part to their tech advantages. The IS developed newer techs during the war and rediscovered others that allowed them to push the Clans back. That and they started working together better.

Things were unbalanced. The were very unbalanced. That is what caused the big push into IS territory and the eventual push back out. Games have to have balance in order to be fun. PGI hasn't figured out how to balance the game just yet and constantly adding new mechs and techs isn't going to make it easier. How do you balance things when one side is suppose to be beating the other to a bloody pulp right now?

[InspectorG]

Clan ENGINE is OP.

Holy Trinity is OP.

Rest is junks.

ERPPC, ACs, non-endo mechs, hardpoint choked mechs, such OP, much non fair.

I mean look at the Summoner. Banned from tourney play cuz those NARC and MG quirks just give the opponent no chance to win.
Golden Master Summoner Race looks down upon weak pleb mechs. Holy Trinity worships master Summoner. Master Summoner bestows wins and banishes losses.

[Dakkaface]

Triordinant, on 19 March 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

The original reason for Quirks was to buff IS 'mechs so they could match up with Clan 'mechs. Originally, Clan 'mechs weren't supposed to get Quirks at all.

I'm fairly certain that the original reason for quirks was so they could buff or nerf under or overperforming chassis without doing cumbersome weapon nerfs that impact all mechs instead of just the targeted mechs. It's not just to buff the IS mechs, but to bump all mechs up to being broadly useable (and down from being the ONLY meta choice). They've been reluctant to implement negative quirks, but I expect when we finally see the Timber Wolf & Stormcrow done there will be some negative quirks in there.

[Triordinant]

Dakkaface, on 19 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

I'm fairly certain that the original reason for quirks was so they could buff or nerf under or overperforming chassis without doing cumbersome weapon nerfs that impact all mechs instead of just the targeted mechs. It's not just to buff the IS mechs, but to bump all mechs up to being broadly useable (and down from being the ONLY meta choice). They've been reluctant to implement negative quirks, but I expect when we finally see the Timber Wolf & Stormcrow done there will be some negative quirks in there.

That's what they're trying to do with Quirks NOW. It's not the original reason.

[MalodorousMonkey]

The current, supposed purpose of the quirks is to balance out chassis that aren't used often do to their ineffectiveness. These mechs can be either clan or inner sphere. If a mech is so bad that almost nobody plays it (Gargoyle, Orion) then it could seriously benefit from some positive quirks to make it more effective.

To those that are saying "but clans are OP!" I would say that the point isn't (or at least shouldn't be) to give all mechs positive quirks. If the timberwolf gets positive quirks, it would be a travesty to balance. It's the other clan chassis such as the ice ferret, gargoyle, and mist lynx that really need something to make them worthwhile. I'm not saying that they necessarily need to be given Dragon-esque quirks with -50% cooldown or heat generation. I'm just saying that they should get the quirks they need to make them a viable mech to bring.

This same concept goes for IS mechs. Because of the superiority of clan tech, IS mechs should generally be getting better quirks, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore quirking all clan mechs just because a few of them are really good.