75 replies to this topic

[Dakkaface]

Triordinant, on 19 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

That's what they're trying to do with Quirks NOW. It's not the original reason.

I fail to see how 'buffing IS mechs up to the level of Clan mechs' doesn't fall under the umbrella of 'buffing up underperforming mechs' It was the first major use of the quirk system, but I certainly don't recall any of the staff saying that was all they were going to do with quirks. AFAIK they've always intended it to be used broadly, even if the first use was to greatly improve the IS mechs, but even there it was the worst off of the IS mechs that got the greatest quirks.

[Nightshade24]

I also find it annoying that clan packs do not give you the 3 colours unlocked (orange, green, grey/ black) while resistance and phoenix do....

[DivineEvil]

Quote

You might notice a change to the Quirk design process starting with this patch. We are going to be switching to a more iterative Quirk design process for the near future. As such, these Quirk changes in general are not as large as some of those that were previously added. We will evaluate the performance of these Quirks and make further adjustments in the future as warranted based on the results.

Yup, you just've read it. It wasn't hard at all, is it?

Can you all STFU now?

Edited by DivineEvil, 20 March 2015 - 01:14 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

No because it was done for the IS it can be done for the Clans. Give us the same to balance it off OR buff the Clans back up, THEN make your further adjustments later on. Spam Twitter. Let them how disappointed you are trothkin.

[razor31]

I don't really see the problem with the quirks. When we were clan, we dominated the IS. Now that we are IS, we dominate the clans. There is no buff to skill and teamwork. Everyone who thinks that clan are OP, or IS is OP need to rethink there drop decks. If all your going to drop is LRM mechs don't come crying on the forums that you get you butts kicked to GOOD direct fire. There is always going to be META game. Regardless of weapon system buff/nerfs, or quirks/no quirks. If your going to drop in silly builds, expect to get owned. Even if you are running the meta, expect to get owned by better teams. Teamwork is OP all you solo players, remember that before you cry on the forums.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

As other people stated before:

The clan equipment itself is vastly better in comparison to the IS equipment. It weighs less, it takes up less crit slots and the balancing inherent to the systems themselves with the longer burn times, the DPS-sided setup of the clan ACs only marginally makes up for that. Obviously not enough, or people would not have been crying havoc here about how P2W the clanmechs were when they were not available for c-bills.

If you think the IS-Quirks are overpowered, you clearly never played a Hellbringer in the right way.

As far as CW goes:
The ability to meta-load 2 stormcrows and 2 hellbringers into the a clan dropdeck and relativly cheaply fit them is an advantage that clan players have. You do not even have to invest much in the way of c-bills to get that dropdeck on the way. You have 3 and 3 anyway from getting the skills to master. As a nice side-effect you provide your team with ECM, which is a necessity and your providing speedy mechs through the crows. You got it all in a nice cheap 4 mech package.

If you want to play 2 dakka (ac5) wolverines and 2 thunderbolts (lets use 5-SS here just for arguments sake) means your buying 4 wolverines and 4 thunderbolts. Even though the mechs themselves are cheaper, your still paying extra. Oh crap. No ECM. No fast mech, either. So lets deviate from that. Some people need to bring Spiders, some need to bring cicadas. Throw in an atlas or 2 for good measure. Even the most overquirked IS mech performs ONE role well. You need to invest a lot more into a good IS dropdeck then you need to invest in a good clan dropdeck. Its a lot less forgiving for noobs too, since the mechs force you into a playstyle and each IS mech has its distinctive feel that forces you to play a certain way. Or shell out more c-bills to run multiple copies of the same mech.

From my point of view the mechlab makes up about 30% of the success you have in a drop. Another 30% is individual skill. The remaining 40% of the success or lack thereof are simply teamplay.

While the IS-Mechs with their heavy front loaded damage potential allow a good coordinated TEAM to appear overly strong, the sturdiness (clan XL anyone) and speed of the clan machines in addition to their partially obscene weapon loads give them other advantages. There are engagments where the IS has distinct advantages and there are engagements where the clan team has the cakewalk.

Its 2 pairs of shoes, each suited to a different purpose. Neither of them is overall better then the other, though.

P.S.: Just so that I said something in regards to the OP:
Considering a constellation where both lights run max armor and back torsos are distributed 8/10/8:
Ignoring headshots this gives us the following:
- The adder will die after receiving a minimum of 56 damage (CT).
- The panther will die after receiving a minimum of 40 damage (either ST).

The panther with 2 ER PPCs (quirked) will dissipate 20 heat per full cycle from 10 internal heat sinks. The Adder with 2 er ppcs will dissipate 24,4 heat per full cycle from 8 internal heatsinks and 6 external ones.

The clan advantages are there, you just need to look at all of the numbers. The adder is not even one of the top clan mechs, btw. There is quite a few where the general picture is a lot more depressing.

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 20 March 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

I been crunching some more numbers on the adder panther comparison and as far as weapons goes:

The Panther with 2 ER PPCs creates 15 x 0,75 (quirk) x 2 = 22,5 heat from firing an alpha. With its 10 internal heatsinks thats 1,125 cycles of the heatsinks to dissipate the heat.

The Adder with its 2 ER PPCs creates 15 x 2 = 30 heat from firing an Alpha. With its 8 internal and 6 external heat sinks thats 1,229 cycles of the heatsinks to dissipate the heat. It has more heatcap because it has more heatsinks, the additional 7,5 points of buildup probably do not matter much in the way of "alphas before shutdown".

Not that much of a difference, eh?

The Panther has an alphastrike damage of 20 with the 2 ER PPCs thats pinpoint.

The Adder has an alphastrike damage of 30 that is 20 pinpoint and (up to) 10 splash.

Personally I made quite a few side torso kills by accidental CT hits with the ER PPC splash of the C-ER-PPC, but maybe thats just me.

Lets just say in my book the potential 10 splash damage make up for the clan mech running a bit hotter.

I hope the numbercrunching shows that even though the quirklist reads very one-sided, the reality in game isn't as one-sided.

If you place both mechs opposite of each other and let them shoot for fastest kill aside from headshot the adder will always win. If you let them shoot a fixed target, both will probably shell out similar DPS. The panther will be more accurate with the velocity buff, the adder will do more damage if it hits.

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 20 March 2015 - 06:46 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

well Clan'mechs are OP compared to STOCK IS mechs. not ultra min/maxed, upgraded, mastered and overquirked "i has custom engine and 2 er ppc where normally a small laser should be sitting" IS masterrace 'mechs.

[CyclonerM]

LOADED, on 20 March 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

well Clan'mechs are OP compared to STOCK IS mechs. not ultra min/maxed, upgraded, mastered and overquirked "i has custom engine and 2 er ppc where normally a small laser should be sitting" IS masterrace 'mechs.

..with single heat sinks and other 3025 tech..

[chaas]

The Inner Sphere beat back the Clans by dropping a Battalion for every Binary. Our tech sucked by comparison. Since we can't drop six companies against ten 'Mechs right now, tech parity is the only option. It's madness to expect that simply by virtue of owning a clan 'Mech, one should be untouchable.

That said, the Adder is staggeringly underwhelming. It's really not good at any one thing. Then again, it's not exactly inept against a Panther. Let's not forget that an Adder Prime has two ERPPC's when compared to the Panther's single standard PPC. Forget Clan versus Inner Sphere altogether for a minute. A 35 tonner with two ERPPC's will win at a rate approaching 100% of the time against a 35 tonner with one PPC. How does one make that fight closer to fair?

Quirks.

Now let's not kid ourselves. The quirks on a Panther don't bring it's firepower up to a 30 point alpha strike. They do, however, improve its DPS so it can at least compete with a 'Mech that carries a significantly higher alpha. That's what quirks are supposed to do.

I hope this explanation helps y'all understand what the quirks system is meant to do. There are 'Mechs, IS and Clan alike, that need something extra to compete against those in their same weight class. At the same time, there are those who really deserve a mild tap from the nerf hammer. It would help if we all understood that this is not something that will happen overnight. It's a work in progress that will continue to be a thing as long as PGI continues to add new 'Mechs to the game.

[Pezzer]

Sigh.

The first clan quirk pass is what I assume to be an experimental one, because everyone agrees that a 4% cooldown bonus might as well be a 0% cooldown bonus. On top of the fact that these kinds of quirks really mess with timing for vets (pressing and holding the fire button when going in and out of cover works well if you have perfect timing, then a quirk pass comes along and you have to think a little more about your movements. Thought=lower reaction time=less damage or death) they really don't help much at all.
I was unpleasantly surprised to see that the ADR-PRIME's quirks didn't include heat dissipation and actual legit PPC velocity bonuses. But I think this is because Russ wanted to "throw the numbers in and see what the stats show" or something like that.

Everyone can agree that yes, the new quirk passes have been a joke for the Clans. But you guys are demanding un-nerfs in recompense? ******* seriously, when I can get 800 damage in a Timberwolf without trying and 500 damage in the SOBAD Gargoyle? I don't know about you wallet warriors, but I didn't pay 480 bucks for a bunch of overpowered mechs that are so OP I can't stand to pilot them. So please stop asking for ridiculous buffs when the reality is very different.

Certain chassis need serious buffs to be worth playing at all, let alone "competitive" in some way for tournament matches. The Mist Lynx is the most DOA mech I've ever used while the Nova gets 2nd or 3rd place behind the Awesome. The Gargoyle is universally regarded as not that bad but not worth taking in place of a real Assault mech while people argue that the Summoner needs some cooldown quirks to make it a little more reliable. Etc etc etc, some clan mechs need help but if we buff Clan weapons again then that means top tier mechs are going to need negative quirks. Do you want a CERPPC that does 15 pinpoint damage on a Timberwolf with -25% turn speed, or do you think you can put up with some splash damage? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

So, simply put, if Clanners want to be taken seriously at all they need to realize that balance works on a case-by-case basis. Stop asking for lower heat or laser durations and start asking for legitimate quirk bonuses on the worst Clan mechs. Every time I see a forum post like this I have to write the same **** because noone seems to realize how OP 50%-60% of the clan mechs are. Noone needs a weapon with unlimited ammo, 1600m of range, ease of use, and low heat on their meta chassis when the Adder specifically needs a low heat bonus when using such a weapon.

Edited by Pezzer, 20 March 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Pezzer, on 20 March 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

So, simply put, if Clanners want to be taken seriously at all they need to realize that balance works on a case-by-case basis. Stop asking for lower heat or laser durations and start asking for legitimate quirk bonuses on the worst Clan mechs.

We did!

Yet again, the quirks for the PNT-10K which no one actually asked about.

ER PPC Velocity +40%
ER PPC Cooldown -25%
ER PPC Heatgeneration - 25%

The quirks we got for the Adder Prime AFTER we asked for some help to make it somewhat usable.

ER PPC Velocity +15%
ER PPC Cooldown - 4%

This doesn't help the Adder. A Heatgeneration quirk would have helped. but nope. The monkey pooped on velocity and cooldown.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

LOADED, on 20 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

We did!

Yet again, the quirks for the PNT-10K which no one actually asked about.

ER PPC Velocity +40%
ER PPC Cooldown -25%
ER PPC Heatgeneration - 25%

The quirks we got for the Adder Prime AFTER we asked for some help to make it somewhat usable.

ER PPC Velocity +15%
ER PPC Cooldown - 4%

This doesn't help the Adder. A Heatgeneration quirk would have helped. but nope. The monkey pooped on velocity and cooldown.

The adder does not need the heat generation quirk in comparison to the panther because it can fit 4 heatsinks more. Its ER PPC is lighter. I actually stated the math above that the adder is not running hotter then a 2 ER PPC panther. It just does more damage per alpha, with the alphas coming slower.

They got pretty much equalized if you compare a 2 ER PPC puma to a 2 ER PPC panther 10k.

[Michael Costanza]

LOADED, on 20 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

We did!

Yet again, the quirks for the PNT-10K which no one actually asked about.

ER PPC Velocity +40%
ER PPC Cooldown -25%
ER PPC Heatgeneration - 25%

The quirks we got for the Adder Prime AFTER we asked for some help to make it somewhat usable.

ER PPC Velocity +15%
ER PPC Cooldown - 4%

This doesn't help the Adder. A Heatgeneration quirk would have helped. but nope. The monkey pooped on velocity and cooldown.

Blow off the right arm of a Panther and it's useless. Heck if you miss and blow off the right torso of a Panther, it's useless.

It's not that way with the Adder. You can even blow off the torso and it still has an ERPPC left and a flamer to tickle with.

In addition, an Adder has more yaw and pitch to its torso.

Adder is a better mech even with the Panther's quirks. If Panthers scare you so much, House Kurita is recruiting.

[Michael Costanza]

chaas, on 20 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

The Inner Sphere beat back the Clans by dropping a Battalion for every Binary. Our tech sucked by comparison. Since we can't drop six companies against ten 'Mechs right now, tech parity is the only option. It's madness to expect that simply by virtue of owning a clan 'Mech, one should be untouchable.

1 Star = 5 Clan Mechs
1 Binary = 2 Stars = 10 Clan Mechs.
1 Company = 12 IS Mechs
1 Battalion = 3 Companies = 36 Mechs

So I'm not sure where you get the "six companies against ten mechs part"

Edited by Michael Costanza, 20 March 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[CyclonerM]

However the Panther has JJs and awesome quirks.

[ThrashInc]

Michael Costanza, on 19 March 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

You were able to fit two ERPPC on a Panther? Congrats, because many have tried and usually can't do it without overheating or stripping out virtually all their armor.

2xER PPC Panther-10K

Additionally:
The Adder with current quirks and no modules is able to reach heat capacity in 8s doing 60 (pinpoint) damage.

The Panther with current quirks and no modules is able to reach heat capacity in 9s doing 80 damage with about 1s in the Override mode.

To do the additional 4th alpha in the Adder, you would shut down for about 10s and be completely broken.

If you change the Panthers engine to an XL210 like the Adder, you can fit 3 additional external heatsinks but your cooling threshold and cooling rate don't change in noticeable amounts, so the speed is a better option (plus, JJ's).

I hadn't done the actual math in my original post where I speculated on heat generation quirks based on the Panther, but to bring them at odds with each other you'd need ~15% (7.5% per pod) ER PPC Heat Generation quirks and equal cooldown/velocity buffs.

[Bregor Edain]

Spoken as a Russ:

Hello clanners, look at your Adder, now back to my Panther, now back to your Adder, now back to my Panther. Sadly your adder isn't my Panther, but if he stopped playing as a clan and switched to IS, he could be awesome like me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're on a dropship with the mech your mech should be like. What's in your hand, back at me. I have it, it's the joystick of all my quirked IS mechs that you love. Look again, the mechs are even better quirked. Anything is possible when you are on the Inner Sphere side and not on the Clans. I'm on a quirked up mech.

[Bluttrunken]

Michael Costanza, on 19 March 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

You were able to fit two ERPPC on a Panther? Congrats, because many have tried and usually can't do it without overheating or stripping out virtually all their armor.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c1c3ba35971e13d

215/238 armor, 1 JJ, max engine, 2 ERPPC's. For using 2 ERPPC's it runs relatively cool, too. Viable build.

[BaronVonH]

Just a thought to try and stop all the QQ, from both sides.... Why not provide the current meta, min/maxed dropdeck as a trial option for ALL mechwarriors, IS *OR* Clan? Then, if the meta changes, just change the drop deck to reflect it! Its not like you are gonna get any cash outta the comp guys.... they already had min/maxed mechs well before they got serious.... You don't have to let them run those mechs in solo/group cue..... Make the dropdeck mechs exclusive to the CW and training areas.... If its REALLY about skill and teamwork, nobody (re:Only trolls!) should complain....

That way, no one would be bashing PUGs for taking the wrong mechs, and no one would be QQing that they didnt have the cash for the right gear... CW isn't the cash grab.... Anyone can read about the meta, buy just those 4 mechs, and be good to go. Just give them to ERRYBODY, and the crying would end, immediately, freeing up resources for the company to move forward, and stop all the fuckery....

Dress them up nice for free in the faction colours of your current choice, and errybody would be happy. Keep It Simple, Smartguy. Anybody else feeling this?