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#41 Grey Death Storm

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 10:49 AM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 21 March 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

"Try to command if you encountered passive team. They not cowards they just do not know what to do"

^^^This.

Its really amazing how just a little leadership can change the game in your favor. Simple stuff like "group at E5" or "focus Bravo, Direwolf". In some ways it can be disturbing how readily pilots respond to commands :)

Also, the Lucky Charms Event is making people play more conservatively. 30 pts is easy to rack up IF you don't do something stupid in the first 5 mins of the match.3


In truth im not Much of a Commander or have patience to be one, other point touch on here is how you win will also come down how many in your team listen to your commands or how many of your team are actually with you!!, as you will get 3-4 team member who just go of on there own in some random direction, I have noticed this in most matches and it all comes down to how many guys you got following you and how many your enemy has attacking you directly this will be decider in the match.

Again thank you did make a valid point

#42 Grey Death Storm

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:06 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sure. But did those players know what you were doing? Did they know the first player was being attacked at all? Maybe their assessment of the situation was simply different, given that their view of the battlefield is different from yours.

Its easy to ascribe cowardice or stupidity to your teammates, but in a PUG match you need to understand that everyone's assessment of a situation is different.

This is why teamwork is so overpowered, why premade groups can have such an impact. Even basic communication helps to bring everyone's views of the state of the battlefield together so you're much more likely to work together rather than all pursue different goals.

In a situation where you move to help a beleaguered teammate and the guy beside you appears to totally ignore him its more likely that your other teammate just doesn't have the same information you do. He's not choosing to abandon that teammate because he's bad, instead he's doing what looks best from his point of view... Which very well could be exactly what you'd have done given the same information he had.

Its an easy mistake to make, assuming everyone on the team shares your look at the battlefield. That's not the case, though.


Again very good point you have made

View PostWintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sure. But did those players know what you were doing? Did they know the first player was being attacked at all? Maybe their assessment of the situation was simply different, given that their view of the battlefield is different from yours.

see this is main problem in PUG world no one know each other in the team so they tend look out for Number 1, and they seem forget that if you lose team members to enemy attacks you lower chances your team winning.

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Its easy to ascribe cowardice or stupidity to your teammates, but in a PUG match you need to understand that everyone's assessment of a situation is different.


Then that will be Major problem because everyone need to be thinking on the same wave lenght when working together or it all falls apart.

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This is why teamwork is so overpowered, why premade groups can have such an impact. Even basic communication helps to bring everyone's views of the state of the battlefield together so you're much more likely to work together rather than all pursue different goals.


You are correct !!! however not everyone will work together sometimes you get 2 - 4 mech going of on there own in some random direction this does not help

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In a situation where you move to help a beleaguered teammate and the guy beside you appears to totally ignore him its more likely that your other teammate just doesn't have the same information you do. He's not choosing to abandon that teammate because he's bad, instead he's doing what looks best from his point of view... Which very well could be exactly what you'd have done given the same information he had


Not always case ive been there and other team member have seen what ive seen done nothing!! even when i engage help team members out, it all comes down what said above everyone in your team is important if 1 - 3 team mates die you are going lose.

Edited by Death Storm, 21 March 2015 - 11:09 AM.


#43 Wintersdark

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:27 AM

View PostDeath Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

see this is main problem in PUG world no one know each other in the team so they tend look out for Number 1, and they seem forget that if you lose team members to enemy attacks you lower chances your team winning.
Of course they look out for number one; that's pretty much instinctive behavior. It doesn't mean they forget the rest, or don't care if friendlies die. Pretty much everyone understands that winning the match is a lot easier with living teammates.

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Then that will be Major problem because everyone need to be thinking on the same wave lenght when working together or it all falls apart.
And this is why we have VOIP. If people choose not to use it, they choose not to use it. But that's the reality of PUG play.

One thing I've learned is that if someone steps up with even very basic organization - meet in E5, focus dire wolf bravo - we win almost all those games. Way more than 50:50. Any organization at all (even if some don't play along) is a huge force multiplier.

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You are correct !!! however not everyone will work together sometimes you get 2 - 4 mech going of on there own in some random direction this does not help

Before they went off on their own, did anyone suggest a (ideally non-stupid) course of action? I'm willing to bet not. particularly with slower mechs, you need to start moving immediately on match start or you'll never get anywhere in time. On the other hand, fast mechs will tend to make assumptions about where everyone is going (conquest games aside); but if what they assume is the Default Plan isn't what everyone else assumes is the Default Plan, they very quickly can end up very far away.

What I'm saying here is that rather than assuming those people are bad, or going all rambo because they refuse to work together, consider that maybe they'd like to work together, but have made an incorrect assumption as to what the plan is? This is particularly noticable when there is no plan.

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Not always case ive been there and other team member have seen what ive seen done nothing!! even when i engage help team members out, it all comes down what said above everyone in your team is important if 1 - 3 team mates die you are going lose.


That's kind of the thing: You don't KNOW they've seen the same thing you've seen. Maybe they've missed something, or maybe they've seen more. They may assume their teammate can handle himself (not knowing the full situation) or maybe know they can't save him and moving to assist will be two dead teammates instead of one (because there absolutely are situations where you can't save someone).


Everyone knows the importance of bodies on the field. Nobody wants to sacrifice someone else, because every fighting mech means more friendlies to shoot at other than you if nothing else.




The long and short of this is: Those pug mates are just as good at this game as you are. They win just as often as you do. As such, assuming what they choose to do is because of different information inputs is a much more likely to be correct than just assuming they're morons.

In the VAST majority of cases, they want to work together, but someone needs to provide the communication (and do it in a way that doesn't make them want to do the opposite of what you say - being an ******* drill sergeant may work in some units, but it objectively does not work in PUG matches).

#44 Goose

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:26 PM

View PostMystere, on 19 March 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

Go play in Community Warfare. :wub:

The designated Teamstack Mode? Why would you do that?

#45 Grey Death Storm

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:27 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Of course they look out for number one; that's pretty much instinctive behavior. It doesn't mean they forget the rest, or don't care if friendlies die. Pretty much everyone understands that winning the match is a lot easier with living teammates.

And this is why we have VOIP. If people choose not to use it, they choose not to use it. But that's the reality of PUG play.

One thing I've learned is that if someone steps up with even very basic organization - meet in E5, focus dire wolf bravo - we win almost all those games. Way more than 50:50. Any organization at all (even if some don't play along) is a huge force multiplier.


Before they went off on their own, did anyone suggest a (ideally non-stupid) course of action? I'm willing to bet not. particularly with slower mechs, you need to start moving immediately on match start or you'll never get anywhere in time. On the other hand, fast mechs will tend to make assumptions about where everyone is going (conquest games aside); but if what they assume is the Default Plan isn't what everyone else assumes is the Default Plan, they very quickly can end up very far away.

What I'm saying here is that rather than assuming those people are bad, or going all rambo because they refuse to work together, consider that maybe they'd like to work together, but have made an incorrect assumption as to what the plan is? This is particularly noticable when there is no plan.



That's kind of the thing: You don't KNOW they've seen the same thing you've seen. Maybe they've missed something, or maybe they've seen more. They may assume their teammate can handle himself (not knowing the full situation) or maybe know they can't save him and moving to assist will be two dead teammates instead of one (because there absolutely are situations where you can't save someone).


Everyone knows the importance of bodies on the field. Nobody wants to sacrifice someone else, because every fighting mech means more friendlies to shoot at other than you if nothing else.




The long and short of this is: Those pug mates are just as good at this game as you are. They win just as often as you do. As such, assuming what they choose to do is because of different information inputs is a much more likely to be correct than just assuming they're morons.

In the VAST majority of cases, they want to work together, but someone needs to provide the communication (and do it in a way that doesn't make them want to do the opposite of what you say - being an ******* drill sergeant may work in some units, but it objectively does not work in PUG matches).



Hi Wintersdark

to be honest you have made some good point what you are saying and your correct we both cant tell what other users are thinking. In all honesty you've made some good argument and its been pleasure talking with you.

In truth is maybe I am getting to long in the tooth for playing Mechwarrior and im possibly past my prime days who knows and its maybe time for me step down. anyway thanks for your opinions and thoughts cheers great talking to you

Regards

Deathstorm

Edited by Death Storm, 21 March 2015 - 01:28 PM.


#46 Goose

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:40 PM

View PostDeath Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

… all raised good points feel free add anymore discussions on this thread as you see fit.

Annnd the Troll Detector goes off …

#47 Grey Death Storm

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 02:00 PM

View PostGoose, on 21 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Annnd the Troll Detector goes off …


I am no Troll, you may not like my comment that's fine, you have a right to an opinion you can comment or simply ignore me. but dont call me a Troll

Edited by Death Storm, 21 March 2015 - 02:01 PM.






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