46 replies to this topic

[Grey Death Storm]

Appogee, on 21 March 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

Not true.

See here: http://mwomercs.com/...97#entry3309097

You're welcome.

Cheers

[Joseph Mallan]

Davers, on 19 March 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

My explanation comes from PGI, more specifically Karl Berg. You can find it in the Karl Berg thread in Offtopic.

Why would a good explanation of Elo be in Off Topic???

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 March 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

Why would a good explanation of Elo be in Off Topic???

Nobody can answer why one of - if not the - most informative thread on the forums is hidden away in Off Topic.

[Eric Generic]

Death Storm, on 19 March 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Hi All

I need ask how exactly does the ELO system work I need to know (The Short Version) as I am finding now a lot time that ever since the ELO system was introduced I am starting lose Matches in Droves!!!.

Problems I have encountered

I suspect This mainly due to being placed in teams that have virtually no experience in Piloting a battle mech yet alone being able to fight or kill an enemy Mechs!!.

The Main problem with strategy of weak team they ether sit hide behind some hill or mountain do nothing !!, Split up in little groups for some annoying reason get killed, crap themselves first signs laser or missile then hide behind a mountain do nothing!!, watch as their team mates get picked off 1 at a time.

I have noticed as if you get into trouble enemy mechs some your team mates just sit there and watch do nothing!!.

Another thing why is it at every time you try to reverse into cover after engaging the enemy you get some annoying team member that sits right behind you preventing you from retreating into cover the amount time i have died or lost important weapons because this is really annoying.

My Verdict

To be honest I am really starting to get tired and annoyed of playing this game it does have great potential !!. But..... To be honest i am trying find out if it is true what i suspect about the Elo System I.e it shoving Veteran player in with weak groups to help buffer there defense. And is there a way for me to escape Elo grip because if theirs not i don't see why should continue playing this game anymore as I am not enjoying playing this losing nearly every match.

Now dont get me wrong I have nothing against New player we have all been there our self's. But it does start to get really annoying if you are place in with weak team in nearly every single match!!

And the fact that now we compete in 12 Vs 12 makes it even more harder win a match as comes down how well your team do in battle. 8 Vs 8 = good mechwarrior should be able kill 3 mechs and pretty much turns tide in your teams favor however not in 12 vs 12 you kill 3 mechs still got 9 to contend with and if the rest team dies you die.

ELO doesn't actually work. It's like the ready button. Sure you have a ranking with each mechtype, but that doesn't help you in matchmaking.

[Mystere]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

Ive been avoiding Community Warfare for time being until they take it out beta and fix the queue issue, there's been time you could be queuing for 20 - 30 mins. anyway how is Community Warfare coming along ?

Queue times have been fine for me since last I've played.

But that's been about three weeks or so ago due to traveling and an injured left arm and wrist.

[Grey Death Storm]

Mystere, on 21 March 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

Queue times have been fine for me since last I've played.

But that's been about three weeks or so ago due to traveling and an injured left arm and wrist.

Hi they devs must of fixed the Queue then ether that or I must been doing something wrong !!, anyway hope your arm and wrist get better soon cheers for the update

Gunther Nhilathok, on 21 March 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

ELO doesn't actually work. It's like the ready button. Sure you have a ranking with each mechtype, but that doesn't help you in matchmaking.

I was afraid you were going say that !! in true this whole thing driving me up wall I miss the good old days when you won 10 -12 matches lost around 2 - 3 matches why cant game revert back to these days

[Novakaine]

ELO and MM ain't the problem.

[Wintersdark]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

Yea I did read pauls review on Elo found very long.... did not get full understanding what he was trying to say I can see where you are coming from what you are say good point

Paul's post explains the math and theory of Elo, Karl Berg's posts explain PGI's implementation as it applies tonthr matchmakerm. They're better posts to read, but there's a lot of them over a huge thread so you'd want to use the index in the OP.

Quote

1:39 it was a lot higher at one point but its been steadily declining duo bad matches

... Of because of Elo working.

No offense, but its been my experience over more than 5000 pug drops that people tend to feel most any loss is due to window lickers and such, that its some MM failure.

Having a WLR moving towards 1 is indicative of Elo functioning.

[Wintersdark]

Gunther Nhilathok, on 21 March 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

ELO doesn't actually work. It's like the ready button. Sure you have a ranking with each mechtype, but that doesn't help you in matchmaking.

Elo works fine. Its a proven system used all over the place, and is arguably the best system for what it does. It isn't perfect, but the majority of its perceived failings are actually just because people don't understand what its for.

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

I was afraid you were going say that !! in true this whole thing driving me up wall I miss the good old days when you won 10 -12 matches lost around 2 - 3 matches why cant game revert back to these days

You understand that winning that many games is an indicator of poor matchmaking, right? If you're being matched with and against suitable opponents, you should be losing roughly half your games.

[Grey Death Storm]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

No offense, but its been my experience over more than 5000 pug drops that people tend to feel most any loss is due to window lickers and such, that its some MM failure.

Having a WLR moving towards 1 is indicative of Elo functioning.

Hi Wintersdark, i am not trying be rude but im not understanding the point you are trying to make here...

[Grey Death Storm]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Elo works fine. Its a proven system used all over the place, and is arguably the best system for what it does. It isn't perfect, but the majority of its perceived failings are actually just because people don't understand what its for.

You understand that winning that many games is an indicator of poor matchmaking, right? If you're being matched with and against suitable opponents, you should be losing roughly half your games.

if that what happening here again i am not trying ignorant in anyway if you should be loosing and winning in same sense that your describing where is the fun in that type system!! I certainly would not be enjoying losing half game is this what Mechwarrior has derived to,

Anyway thanks for your input into ELO

Edited by Death Storm, 21 March 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[stjobe]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Hi Wintersdark, i am not trying be rude but im not understanding the point you are trying to make here...

What he's saying is
1. That people tend to blame their team-mates, the matchmaker, anything but themselves for a loss
2. That the matchmaker's job is to try to get you to a 1.0 Win/Loss ratio.

[EgoSlayer]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

if that what happening here again i am not trying ignorant in anyway if you should be loosing and winning in same sense that your describing where is the fun in that type system!! I certainly would not be enjoying losing half game is this what Mechwarrior has derived to,

Anyway thanks for your input into ELO

Because if you are winning most of the time that means you are playing less skilled opponents. Noob farming as it were.
Likewise, if you are losing most of the time it means you are playing much higher skilled opponents. It's you being farmed.

Neither of the above is fun for the long term.

If you are matched against your peers in skill then you have a equal chance of winning or losing.

[Grey Death Storm]

stjobe, on 21 March 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

What he's saying is
1. That people tend to blame their team-mates, the matchmaker, anything but themselves for a loss
2. That the matchmaker's job is to try to get you to a 1.0 Win/Loss ratio.

Thats fair enough Statement but im a pretty reasonable pilot and fighter and end day if my team dont push or do anything its Game Over in any match

[Wintersdark]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Hi Wintersdark, i am not trying be rude but im not understanding the point you are trying to make here...

What I'm saying is people tend to attribute losses to the matchmaker failing, or teams just being bad, but that's typically not the case. The matchmakers' job is to make evenly matched teams. Evenly matched teams doesn't mean you're likely to regularly have "close" matches; it just means that the matchmaker strives to set up matchers where at match start the odds of either team winning are roughly 50:50. But even with evenly matched teams (and you see this regularly in comp level play) teams get rolled all the time.

With Elo, the MM will get a good handle on your skill level, and everyone elses. It will do it's best to make matches with people of the same skill, so you're not going to have a really high WLR in solo drops (group queue is a bit different) unless you're really good. The vast majority of people will end up around 1:1, be they anywhere from mildly above average to mildly below average. People at the high end of the scale or the low end (it's a bell curve) will tend to be matched against people outside their bracket more often, and as such end up with a higher or lower WLR simply because the MM has insufficient similarly skilled players in the queue at the time to make ideal matches. This is a very small segment of the playerbase, however.

[Wintersdark]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Thats fair enough Statement but im a pretty reasonable pilot and fighter and end day if my team dont push or do anything its Game Over in any match

That's true, but it's much more complicated than it seems.

After all, you're not pushing either, right? Probably because nobody else is pushing, and if you push, you'll just die uselessly right?

They're all thinking the same thing. Chances are, those people in the match with you aren't stupid - they're very likely every bit as good as you - but either they're seeing the battle differently, or they're all just in exactly the same spot you are; they've been the one leading a push where others didn't follow (potentially because the others weren't aware of what was happening) and died uselessly, or where just unlucky. There's a lot of learned behaviour in solo play that are difficult to overcome. Leadership there is necessary, but hard.


Basically, I've seen so damn many losses where someone, or several people have said exactly what you're saying. That is, pretty much every single player on the team thinks the same damn thing.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 March 2015 - 10:17 AM.

[Grey Death Storm]

EgoSlayer, on 21 March 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Because if you are winning most of the time that means you are playing less skilled opponents. Noob farming as it were.
Likewise, if you are losing most of the time it means you are playing much higher skilled opponents. It's you being farmed.

Neither of the above is fun for the long term.

If you are matched against your peers in skill then you have a equal chance of winning or losing.

It doesn't seem appear that way as in most matches i have been in I have found im usually in the last 2 or 3 mechs left in my team to die, and my death involves around getting killed by 4 - 5 enemy mechs ganging up on me all at once, usaully all the other mechs that your team were meant to kill!!! and usually if you press tab key you can look at team score screen you notice how well your team has done by there damage score !.

And No I do not sand around doing nothing I will work with my team call out enemy movement, and attack where i am of use and i can usually chalk up 1 - 2 kills.

[Grey Death Storm]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

That's true, but it's much more complicated than it seems.

After all, you're not pushing either, right? Probably because nobody else is pushing, and if you push, you'll just die uselessly right?

They're all thinking the same thing. Chances are, those people in the match with you aren't stupid - they're very likely every bit as good as you - but either they're seeing the battle differently, or they're all just in exactly the same spot you are; they've been the one leading a push where others didn't follow (potentially because the others weren't aware of what was happening) and died uselessly, or where just unlucky. There's a lot of learned behaviour in solo play that are difficult to overcome. Leadership there is necessary, but hard.


Basically, I've seen so damn many losses where someone, or several people have said exactly what you're saying. That is, pretty much every single player on the team thinks the same damn thing.

That is very good statement you have produced, however not all player base will think as you describe, and there has been times I have jumped in help out player who get attacked by the enemy team and some your friendly teammates just sit back watch they dont HELP they go of on there own get killed.

Edited by Death Storm, 21 March 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Try to command if you encountered passive team. They not cowards they just do not know what to do"

^^^This.

Its really amazing how just a little leadership can change the game in your favor. Simple stuff like "group at E5" or "focus Bravo, Direwolf". In some ways it can be disturbing how readily pilots respond to commands

Also, the Lucky Charms Event is making people play more conservatively. 30 pts is easy to rack up IF you don't do something stupid in the first 5 mins of the match.3

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 21 March 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Death Storm, on 21 March 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

That is very good statement you have produced, however not all player base will think as you describe, and there has been times I have jumped in help out player who get attacked by the enemy team and some your friendly teammates just sit back watch they dont HELP they go of on there own get killed.

Sure. But did those players know what you were doing? Did they know the first player was being attacked at all? Maybe their assessment of the situation was simply different, given that their view of the battlefield is different from yours.

Its easy to ascribe cowardice or stupidity to your teammates, but in a PUG match you need to understand that everyone's assessment of a situation is different.

This is why teamwork is so overpowered, why premade groups can have such an impact. Even basic communication helps to bring everyone's views of the state of the battlefield together so you're much more likely to work together rather than all pursue different goals.

In a situation where you move to help a beleaguered teammate and the guy beside you appears to totally ignore him its more likely that your other teammate just doesn't have the same information you do. He's not choosing to abandon that teammate because he's bad, instead he's doing what looks best from his point of view... Which very well could be exactly what you'd have done given the same information he had.

Its an easy mistake to make, assuming everyone on the team shares your look at the battlefield. That's not the case, though.