60 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Ok, so I see the Shadowcat, and I had to clean myself up. Several times.


Only one concern though. Dem Hardpoints. I figure since you are probably still working on those mechs, there might be time to make a crucial adjustment.

The shadowcat A has 3 hardpoints total...2 energy, one missile.

Perhaps we could bump those single Energy arm hardpoints into 2x Energy hardpoints. (It is not as though this is without precedent.. the SCR-Prime has 1 energy weapon in each arm in TT, and 2 E-HP in each arm here...)

What do ya say?



(As of right now, it's going to be a tough mech to use...ECM, JJs, and MASC are all nice things.. but when you have Ice Ferret weapons, it does not mean much.)

[Paigan]

I'm pretty sure they thought very thoroughly about the hardpoints, considering Battletech lore, balance, etc.

It will be a hell of a mech anyway, no need for any subjectivly "crucial" adjustments.

Apart from that, you can already combine pods to get 3xE 2xM or 2xE 3xM.
If that doesn't get you what you want, I don't know...

You can fit 2xLPL or 3xERLL or a combination of medium lasers and other stuff in it.
Hell, even a Gauss.
Combined with ECM, JJ, MASC and good weapon positions.

I'm already both frightened and thrilled it might be way overpowered.

Edited by Paigan, 20 March 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

Ok, so I see the Shadowcat, and I had to clean myself up. Several times.


Only one concern though. Dem Hardpoints. I figure since you are probably still working on those mechs, there might be time to make a crucial adjustment.

The shadowcat A has 3 hardpoints total...2 energy, one missile.

Perhaps we could bump those single Energy arm hardpoints into 2x Energy hardpoints. (It is not as though this is without precedent.. the SCR-Prime has 1 energy weapon in each arm in TT, and 2 E-HP in each arm here...)

What do ya say?

The Crows always had those twin barrels of doom in MW series. It was even in the official art. Considering the ECM, I hesitate to give the Scat more power. Clans have those super good CLPLs for those who desire more power but have little hardpoints.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 March 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

Ok, so I see the Shadowcat, and I had to clean myself up. Several times.


Only one concern though. Dem Hardpoints. I figure since you are probably still working on those mechs, there might be time to make a crucial adjustment.

The shadowcat A has 3 hardpoints total...2 energy, one missile.

Perhaps we could bump those single Energy arm hardpoints into 2x Energy hardpoints. (It is not as though this is without precedent.. the SCR-Prime has 1 energy weapon in each arm in TT, and 2 E-HP in each arm here...)

What do ya say?



(As of right now, it's going to be a tough mech to use...ECM, JJs, and MASC are all nice things.. but when you have Ice Ferret weapons, it does not mean much.)

Except omnipods.

You could run, for example, 3E 3M 3B. That's hardly insignificant.

The B arms grant 2E2M together. Then there's the 1E or 1M RT and the AMS, ECM or 3B LT.

Lots of options, and those high mounted hardpoints, too!

[Livewyr]

Paigan, on 20 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure they thought very thoroughly about the hardpoints, considering Battletech lore, balance, etc.

It will be a hell of a mech anyway, no need for any subjectivly "crucial" adjustments.

Apart from that, you can combine pods to get 3xE 2xM or 2xE 3xM.
If that doesn't get you what you want, I don't know...

You can fit 2xLPL or 3xERLL or a combination of medium lasers and other stuff in it.
Hell, even a Gauss.
Combined with ECM, JJ, MASC and good weapon positions.

I'm already both frightened and thrilled it might be way overpowered.

It can fit those large weapons 2LPL/3ERLL.. but with a total of 10-13 DHS, that will not be enough to keep it cool enough to effectively run those larger heat weapons. What we appear to have coming in is a Kitfox with masc and a bit more armor. (And a dreamy look)

Wintersdark, on 20 March 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

Except omnipods.

You could run, for example, 3E 3M 3B. That's hardly insignificant.

The B arms grant 2E2M together. Then there's the 1E or 1M RT and the AMS, ECM or 3B LT.

Lots of options, and those high mounted hardpoints, too!

3 energy, 3 missile, and 3 Ballistics, gives you... 1-2 options for loadout with 16 tons of podspace.. (and it isn't exactly ranged.)

I'd love to be wrong, but with 3 Energy hardpoints total, I don't see this mech coming to Community Warfare. (ECM and MASC wouldn't be a draw when you can just bring the Arctic Cheetah.)

The SCat, as it is now, will not have the ranged firepower needed for Community Warfare.

[TercieI]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

It can fit those large weapons 2LPL/3ERLL.. but with a total of 10-13 DHS, that will not be enough to keep it cool enough to effectively run those larger heat weapons. What we appear to have coming in is a Kitfox with masc and a bit more armor. (And a dreamy look)



3 energy, 3 missile, and 3 Ballistics, gives you... 1-2 options for loadout with 16 tons of podspace.. (and it isn't exactly ranged.)

I'd love to be wrong, but with 3 Energy hardpoints total, I don't see this mech coming to Community Warfare. (ECM and MASC wouldn't be a draw when you can just bring the Arctic Cheetah.)

The SCat, as it is now, will not have the ranged firepower needed for Community Warfare.

45 tons, fast, 2LPL/1ML and ECM. Sounds fine to me.

[Livewyr]

Terciel1976, on 20 March 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

45 tons, fast, 2LPL/1ML and ECM. Sounds fine to me.

Have you considered what happens when you fire those 2 LPLs more than twice?

[TercieI]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Have you considered what happens when you fire those 2 LPLs more than twice?

I reposition? If it's too hot, the ML becomes a DHS or I mess with ERLLs. I'm not great at specing without Smurfy, but hardpoint count isn't a big concern on the Shadow Cat for me. I play Cicadas, conceptually the playstyle should be similar. Maybe it won't be great in CW, but that's not my main concern honestly

Edit: I don't find the heat of 2LPL any problem on the Adder, really should be fine on the Shadow Cat.

Edited by Terciel1976, 20 March 2015 - 08:03 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Have you considered what happens when you fire those 2 LPLs more than twice?

With just the 2 LPL's and 10 minimum DHS, you can fire for 26s before overheating.

16t pod space - 12 (LPL's) - 1 ERML -1 ECM = 2t free; so 12 DHS. 32s of continuous LPL fire, 18 with the ERML.

That's pretty reasonable heat efficiency, when all is said and done.

For 45t, bringing ECM support at high speed? Certainly seems usable to me.

[Wintersdark]

Paigan, on 20 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure they thought very thoroughly about the hardpoints, considering Battletech lore, balance, etc.

It will be a hell of a mech anyway, no need for any subjectivly "crucial" adjustments.

Apart from that, you can already combine pods to get 3xE 2xM or 2xE 3xM.
If that doesn't get you what you want, I don't know...

You can fit 2xLPL or 3xERLL or a combination of medium lasers and other stuff in it.
Hell, even a Gauss.
Combined with ECM, JJ, MASC and good weapon positions.

I'm already both frightened and thrilled it might be way overpowered.

It won't be overpowered - it's still a 45t mech, after all. It certainly looks useful to me, though - from a CW perspective, there's a lot of value in being 45t. 75+45=120, so 2xTW+2xScat is a possible drop deck. Or TW+CB+Crow+Scat.

Yes, you can bring ECM via Cheetah (and the Cheetah WILL be an awesome!) but these are very good options for those of us who are bad at lights

[Livewyr]

Terciel1976, on 20 March 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

I reposition? If it's too hot, the ML becomes a DHS or I mess with ERLLs. I'm not great at specing without Smurfy, but hardpoint count isn't a big concern on the Shadow Cat for me. I play Cicadas, conceptually the playstyle should be similar. Maybe it won't be great in CW, but that's not my main concern honestly.

Considering that community warfare is the end-game content, it should be the concern of PGI.

If you are having trouble imagining it, grab an Adder (it has about 16 tons of Podspace when near full armor.)
Now put a TC 1 in to bring the "Shadowcat" down to the 15 tons it going to have when you put the armor near max. (306 or so for the Ice ferret, and since they have the same armor profile, I imagine that is what the SCat will have)

So you have 15 tons free with your 10 basic heatsinks.
Now switch the Torsos to A variant (if they are not already) and make one arm a prime arm.

15 tons (one being taken by a TC1 for fill-in), 10 basic heatsinks, 3 Energy hardpoints.
Add a CAP to symbolize your SCat's ECM,

Then fill the remaining 3 energy hardpoints and 14 tons with 2 LPLs and a ERML, or DHS.. take it into Training Grounds, and pretend you are in a Shadow cat.

[TercieI]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Considering that community warfare is the end-game content, it should be the concern of PGI.

If you are having trouble imagining it, grab an Adder (it has about 16 tons of Podspace when near full armor.)
Now put a TC 1 in to bring the "Shadowcat" down to the 15 tons it going to have when you put the armor near max. (306 or so for the Ice ferret, and since they have the same armor profile, I imagine that is what the SCat will have)

So you have 15 tons free with your 10 basic heatsinks.
Now switch the Torsos to A variant (if they are not already) and make one arm a prime arm.

15 tons (one being taken by a TC1 for fill-in), 10 basic heatsinks, 3 Energy hardpoints.
Add a CAP to symbolize your SCat's ECM,

Then fill the remaining 3 energy hardpoints and 14 tons with 2 LPLs and a ERML, or DHS.. take it into Training Grounds, and pretend you are in a Shadow cat.

As I edited in...I run a 2LPL ADR. Heat's fine for what it is. <shrug>

Thanks for the math, Winters. 26s...way longer than such a mech should be in one place.

[Livewyr]

Wintersdark, on 20 March 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

With just the 2 LPL's and 10 minimum DHS, you can fire for 26s before overheating.

16t pod space - 12 (LPL's) - 1 ERML -1 ECM = 2t free; so 12 DHS. 32s of continuous LPL fire, 18 with the ERML.

That's pretty reasonable heat efficiency, when all is said and done.

For 45t, bringing ECM support at high speed? Certainly seems usable to me.

You forgot Armor. It comes with about 256 of 306... (which is about 2 tons to get it up to full armor.)

[Livewyr]

Running my "Shadowcat" (Adder) with a Shadowcat loadout (2LPL, ERML, ECM, 1xDHS) gives me 30% Heat per shot with just the 2 LPLs. 41% with 2 LPLs and a ERML.

30% is a tall order for 26 points of damage.. especially when it doesn't shrink very fast.

Why would I bring that when I could bring a kitfox with 2xERLL and a ERML and save my deck 15 tons?

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Running my "Shadowcat" (Adder) with a Shadowcat loadout (2LPL, ERML, ECM, 1xDHS) gives me 30% Heat per shot with just the 2 LPLs. 41% with 2 LPLs and a ERML.

30% is a tall order for 26 points of damage.. especially when it doesn't shrink very fast.

Why would I bring that when I could bring a kitfox with 2xERLL and a ERML and save my deck 15 tons?

Cause Scat has higher energy mounts and better armor. It does 2ERLL + ERML better than Kit Fox.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 March 2015 - 08:36 AM.

[Livewyr]

El Bandito, on 20 March 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

Cause Scat has higher energy mounts and better armor. It does 2ERLL + ERML better than Kit Fox.

But for 15 tons? Could do Kitfox and Stormcrow for 5 tons less than 2xShadowcat.

Kitfox only loses on having arm mounted (and even then, it has a tiny profile), and Stormcrow loses JJ/ECM for a whole lot more firepower (Energy Hardpoints) and armor.

----------------------------
Don't get me wrong, I love the shadowcat.. I just think it should have a better firepower options than a kitfox for that extra [EDIT]15 tons.

El Bandito, on 20 March 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

Cause Scat has higher energy mounts and better armor. It does 2ERLL + ERML better than Kit Fox due to more available pod space.

(It doesn't really have more available podspace.. maybe 1 ton...which the KFX can make up for by dropping torso JJS)

Edited by Livewyr, 20 March 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[LordMelvin]

But what about the 6(7?) MG build? 10,000 rounds of machine gun ammo.


Jokes aside, I'll probably throw and AC5 or 10 into my Scat plus a couple MLs or MPLs and play it like a fast, sneaky Shadowhawk. Which would be appropriate considering the name.

[Livewyr]

-----------------------------
And thus, I suggest giving it another energy hardpoint in each arm for the A variant.

Gives it community warfare options.
Not nearly as strong as the SCR (still only about 15 tons of podspace) but something manageable.

5MPL
1ERLL/4ERML
1LPL/4EML

LordMelvin, on 20 March 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

But what about the 6(7?) MG build? 10,000 rounds of machine gun ammo.


Jokes aside, I'll probably throw and AC5 or 10 into my Scat plus a couple MLs or MPLs and play it like a fast, sneaky Shadowhawk. Which would be appropriate considering the name.

I kinda gave up on Clan ballistics (aside from Gauss) a while ago...they're like lasers, only with travel time and 2-4x the tonnage.

[DasaDevil]

Hey Live, I am going to respectfully disagree with your assessment on the Shadowcat. 3xERLL would be more than suitable for CW in a support capacity. While the Storm crow can obviously do it better, heat management is all you really need to effectively employ that build for a Sniper type. The high hard points are what really give it a competitive edge, along with the jump jets. Jump jets actually are really what make the mech, considering some of the best nests require jets to get to, to begin with.

On high mobility fights, however, I can see where the Shadowcat faulters. Outside of gen rushing with light mechs, I don't see a place for it other than to provide ECM to a bunch of kitted out light mechs while having more staying power due to increased armor. I will reassess more when I get home.

[Livewyr]

DasaDevil, on 20 March 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

Hey Live, I am going to respectfully disagree with your assessment on the Shadowcat. 3xERLL would be more than suitable for CW in a support capacity. While the Storm crow can obviously do it better, heat management is all you really need to effectively employ that build for a Sniper type. The high hard points are what really give it a competitive edge, along with the jump jets. Jump jets actually are really what make the mech, considering some of the best nests require jets to get to, to begin with.

On high mobility fights, however, I can see where the Shadowcat faulters. Outside of gen rushing with light mechs, I don't see a place for it other than to provide ECM to a bunch of kitted out light mechs while having more staying power due to increased armor. I will reassess more when I get home.

Yeah, the 3 ERLL is one of the ones I'm planning on using as of now... but that's really about it. (And even then, that isn't going to handle heat very well.. or light mechs.)