65 replies to this topic

[Dusk Raven]

Hello, fellow Mechwarriors. I am a random nobody here to gargleblarf my opinions in your face in the hopes of people actually accepting them. My whole goal here is to explain why Clan 'mechs aren't really overpowered and the Inner Sphere 'mechs are getting to the point of "Okay, this is getting stupid guys."

We are all seeing the "Clans OP" scenario everywhere but why is this so? Well, the whole reason is because the Dire Wolf, Stormcrow, and the Hellbringer exist.

I am not going to sugar coat this, the Dire Wolf is insane sometimes, but that's only if you're against a pilot who knows what he's doing. Most likely running Seismic Sensor for maximum awareness and Radar Derp because, screw LRM boats. The Dire Wolf can be equated to the Angry Marines dreadnought because it can fit everything and it's second cousin on it. There's a ridiculous factor in build variety because of it being a 100 ton 'mech, a huge mish-mash of hardpoints no matter which variant you're bringing (not to mention omnipods) and the fact that it's running an XL (which every clan does this but it's why they can fit so much, it also really breaks their effectiveness when a torso is shot off due to the heat penalty.). So what you can do with a Dire Whale is effectively bring whatever you want and screw everything up in your path without the single inkling of taking damage (that is if you're not completely stupid and try to 1v12 the enemy team).

Now the Stormcrow, hoo boy is this thing a doozy. There are two popular builds I'm seeing for it, which is the Ravecrow, a mixture of lasers. Any type of lasers. As long as you're running two large lasers and the rest a mixture of mediums and smalls, you won't have any ghost heat on alpha because of the fact that linked lasers are calculated by size, so medium and small pulse/normal lasers have their own ghost heat (7 is the magic number for these) and large normal/pulse lasers have their own ghost heat as well (3 is their magic number) so you can run a tandem of 8 lasers with an alpha strike without ghost heat (which begs the question of why aren't Novas doing this? I'll go into that in a few paragraphs.). Also coupled with the fact that it can go over 100kph is stupid for even a medium 'mech with that firepower. Not to mention the Splatcrow build where you just bring five SRM6, a medium laser and a TarComp 7. Yes, a TarComp 7.

The Hellbringer is good, but it's just decent. It's not like the Dire Wolf or the Stormcrow where there are some serious sketchy things going on but it can boat some ECM which gives it an automatic check. It is also the only Heavy 'mech in the game that can do this, which gives it a check plus. So the Hellbringer is already decent for team supporting. I've seen a lot of builds for it too, but I've seen one that works well. That's the 5 ER Medium Laser, 2 ER Large Laser and 2 Machine Gun build. Okay, you got me, this is just me gushing about my Hellbringer build, but it's a solid build. It runs hot, so it takes some skill to manage your heat without dying (I still need to keep track of that, it's the first real 'mech I've had heat problems with). The Medium Lasers for damage up close, the Large Lasers for long range poking and the Machine Guns (with one ton of ammo, mind you) are a really good fallback weapon when you don't want to kill yourself due to heat and get a lot of crits on internal structure. It takes a good pilot to get it to work.

Now my entire thing about this spiel is not to preach "CLANS OP PGI PLS NERF," it's to bring attention to the Clan 'mechs that bring up this conversation. I could have said things about the Timber Wolf as well as the Kit Fox but I don't think that they're inherently overpowered, but solid 'mechs period. Comparing the other Clan 'mechs to these three it kind of becomes moot, since the Stormcrow is better than the Nova is quite possibly every way: There's the fact that it can do the same exact amount of damage the Nova can, have 5 extra tons of space, move faster, put more heatsinks, better taccomps, more damaging builds, better hitboxes, etc. So there's no reason to run a Nova when you can run a Stormcrow. There's also the fact that the rest of the clan 'mechs can be massively killed by an IS 'mech, which is non-canonical as all derp. I get that the game should be balanced between all 'mechs but the way it's going about it it's not really happening at this point.

Over to the Inner Sphere side you can have such builds as the Thunderwub, 7 Medium Pulse Lasers going at the speed of 75kph and cooling efficiency out the wazoo. The Stock Grid Iron which is just a Gauss Rifle going at the speed of yes. The Huginn, Pirate's Bane, King Crab, ECM Spider, Dragon 1N, should I even keep going? The Quirks System is fine and all but the entire problem with it is that it flipped the 'mech tier list head over heels. The low tier 'mechs turned into Tier 0 'mechs and the old Tier 0 'mechs are nowhere to be found. Not to mention that any of today's Tier 0 'mechs are Inner Sphere and completely screw Clans out of the game due to the Quirks. 50% cooldown without weapon modules is not fine, PGI. 20%? Sure. But the fact of the matter is that a thing like this should not really pass through balancing, since it's unbalanced as jeeeeezzzz. Not to mention that the Clan 'mechs aren't getting better quirks because of the forum community spurting the unnessicary bull as "Clans OP" though there are two, arguably three or four, ridiculous clan 'mechs, and even that the pilot has to be on their game to be effective with one of them.

The fact that I'm getting to is that yeah, canonically clans are pretty ridiculous in the Battletech universe, but in MWO they're just.... subpar at the moment due to the quirk system the IS 'mechs get.

The solution I'm getting at is the rework the entire quirk system to balance ALL battlemechs, instead of just IS. The Nova could really use some love, and so could a few more of the clan 'mechs out there, not to mention all of the IS 'mechs that need fine tuning as well, the bad ones and the ridiculously good ones. The point is that game balance is important, and is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. Hatespeech is real when it comes to some things but that's video games in general. I applaud PGI for listening to it's community but I feel as if they're basing all balance changes around what the community says, instead of second guessing it as rageposting some of the times (I.E. the "THIS THING KILLED ME IT'S OVERPOWERED PLEASE NERF" argument)

[Mcgral18]

If people want Clans to be "balanced", they need to have fewer restrictions in the mechlab.

So many Clam robots have Ferro instead of Endo, the lack of either, an oversized engine, pointless hardwired equipment, etc...

The construction rules are what ruin many of them.

The Nova, for example, could add Endo and move to a 300XL, lose 1 JJs, and in the end lose only two crit slots, with the same 15.5 tons of pod space. It would move 107 instead.

Mist Lynx could lose the AP, drop 2 JJs, upgrade to a 250XL and move 178, with 10 TrueDubs, with 4 tons of weapons left. 4 ERMLs/SPLs is pretty deadly, especially in a mech moving that fast. This would even give it a purpose over the Arctic Cheetah...almost 40 Kph faster

Badder could have the Flamer removed, and suddenly it has 5 E hardpoints available, including one super high mounted. Upgrade to a 245/280XL and gain more TrueDubs, while moving faster. It could almost compare to some IS lights. Hitboxes still aren't ideal.

For Mr Gargles, TT engine rules wouldn't be the best, since it's 320 or 400. A 375 would be almost ideal, since it would let him have loadouts comparable to TimberGods, just without JJs, good hitboxes or high mounted hardpoints. A loadout worthy of Assault mechs, at least, and not Medium mechs.


PeaceDove and Vulture could swap their Ferro for Endo.

Loki probably doesn't need anything...easing the restrictions could be on a per chassis basis, since you don't want the good robots downgrading their engine slightly for considerably more weapons.


When all Clams have a semi decent baseline, then blanket nerfs can do what they will. As it stands, all the blanket nerfs do are ruin the already Terribad Clams.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 March 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Clans are OP.
IS need quirks to be a bit below clans.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Yeah no. The Timberwolf and Stormcrow are the source of almost all of the IS vs Clan imbalance.

Remove Speed Tweak from both, change movement archtypes for both to Large.

Neither of those mechs need to go 89 or 106, and lowering their maneuverability would have great effect.

Then you just gradually bump up the bad clan mechs.
Just dont tell me for one minute that the Timberwolf is fine, because its as braindead as the Stalker 3F used to be.

[FupDup]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 21 March 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Yeah no. The Timberwolf and Stormcrow are the source of almost all of the IS vs Clan imbalance.

Remove Speed Tweak from both, change movement archtypes for both to Large.

Neither of those mechs need to go 89 or 106, and lowering their maneuverability would have great effect.

Then you just gradually bump up the bad clan mechs.
Just dont tell me for one minute that the Timberwolf is fine, because its as braindead as the Stalker 3F used to be.

The Mad Cat is already Large actually.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

FupDup, on 21 March 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

The Mad Cat is already Large actually.

Make it Huge.

jk

[Dusk Raven]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 21 March 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Just dont tell me for one minute that the Timberwolf is fine, because its as braindead as the Stalker 3F used to be.

The reason why I say the Timby is fine is due to the fact that although it can move fast and tote some firepower, the firepower it can bring is extremely outshined by the other Clan 'mechs. From my in-game experience, the way you want to run a clan 'mech as of right now is energy weapons. The Timber Wolf is fine due to the fact that it is a 75 ton 'mech, compared to the 100 ton monster that the Dire Wolf is, it just can't carry as much firepower as it without skimping on armor or heatsinks. The way I see it, is you run a high heat build with a timber wolf, lots of lasers and heatsinks, skimp out on ballistics and missiles, or you run a missile based build, SRM/LRMs. At the point that you're using an energy based build, you can run a Hellbringer with just as many energy hardpoints, skimp out on a bit of tonnage but also be able to bring ECM, which is worth the change due to having better survivability without LRMs,, giving it a bunch of more utility for a game more centralized around team play, and being able to get rid of radar derp for target info gathering which is number 3 on the "mech modules to bring into battle". Also, at the point you're bringing a missile based build, you could just bring a Mad Dog with more missiles than it, which you're still running with less armor, you're bringing much more firepower with missiles and not getting rid of energy hardpoints. The problem with the timber wolf is that it tries to do what the Dire Wolf does with less tonnage and gets rocked for it. Not to mention the Timber's hitboxes are pretty easy to pick apart though the Hellbringer's aren't that small either.

[Adiuvo]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

The reason why I say the Timby is fine is due to the fact that although it can move fast and tote some firepower, the firepower it can bring is extremely outshined by the other Clan 'mechs. From my in-game experience, the way you want to run a clan 'mech as of right now is energy weapons. The Timber Wolf is fine due to the fact that it is a 75 ton 'mech, compared to the 100 ton monster that the Dire Wolf is, it just can't carry as much firepower as it without skimping on armor or heatsinks. The way I see it, is you run a high heat build with a timber wolf, lots of lasers and heatsinks, skimp out on ballistics and missiles, or you run a missile based build, SRM/LRMs. At the point that you're using an energy based build, you can run a Hellbringer with just as many energy hardpoints, skimp out on a bit of tonnage but also be able to bring ECM, which is worth the change due to having better survivability without LRMs,, giving it a bunch of more utility for a game more centralized around team play, and being able to get rid of radar derp for target info gathering which is number 3 on the "mech modules to bring into battle". Also, at the point you're bringing a missile based build, you could just bring a Mad Dog with more missiles than it, which you're still running with less armor, you're bringing much more firepower with missiles and not getting rid of energy hardpoints. The problem with the timber wolf is that it tries to do what the Dire Wolf does with less tonnage and gets rocked for it. Not to mention the Timber's hitboxes are pretty easy to pick apart though the Hellbringer's aren't that small either.

It moves 89kph.

[Dusk Raven]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

If people want Clans to be "balanced", they need to have fewer restrictions in the mechlab.

So many Clam robots have Ferro instead of Endo, the lack of either, an oversized engine, pointless hardwired equipment, etc...

The construction rules are what ruin many of them.

The Nova, for example, could add Endo and move to a 300XL, lose 1 JJs, and in the end lose only two crit slots, with the same 15.5 tons of pod space. It would move 107 instead.

Mist Lynx could lose the AP, drop 2 JJs, upgrade to a 250XL and move 178, with 10 TrueDubs, with 4 tons of weapons left. 4 ERMLs/SPLs is pretty deadly, especially in a mech moving that fast. This would even give it a purpose over the Arctic Cheetah...almost 40 Kph faster

Badder could have the Flamer removed, and suddenly it has 5 E hardpoints available, including one super high mounted. Upgrade to a 245/280XL and gain more TrueDubs, while moving faster. It could almost compare to some IS lights. Hitboxes still aren't ideal.

For Mr Gargles, TT engine rules wouldn't be the best, since it's 320 or 400. A 375 would be almost ideal, since it would let him have loadouts comparable to TimberGods, just without JJs, good hitboxes or high mounted hardpoints. A loadout worthy of Assault mechs, at least, and not Medium mechs.


PeaceDove and Vulture could swap their Ferro for Endo.

Loki probably doesn't need anything...easing the restrictions could be on a per chassis basis, since you don't want the good robots downgrading their engine slightly for considerably more weapons.


When all Clams have a semi decent baseline, then blanket nerfs can do what they will. As it stands, all the blanket nerfs do are ruin the already Terribad Clams.

Although I do agree with the fact that they could use some more broad customization, I wouldn't say that any of the clan 'mechs are inherently bad, but they do require a decent pilot to drive them at the moment. They can't just be picked up and have the ease of use as IS 'mechs which is understandable, but the fact of the matter is that there should be a greater reward to using a more difficult to use 'mech, not to just quirk out all the low tier 'mechs to make them retardedly easy to use then keep the clan 'mechs in the dark or with the tiny quirks that the IS should be getting. The problem isn't really with the customization of the clan 'mechs, which I do wish I could fit a bigger engine in my Hellbringer, but that the IS 'mechs are overquirked to the point that there's no reason to bring a Clan 'mech when you can bring an IS 'mech that does everything better.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

The reason why I say the Timby is fine is due to the fact that although it can move fast and tote some firepower, the firepower it can bring is extremely outshined by the other Clan 'mechs. From my in-game experience, the way you want to run a clan 'mech as of right now is energy weapons. The Timber Wolf is fine due to the fact that it is a 75 ton 'mech, compared to the 100 ton monster that the Dire Wolf is, it just can't carry as much firepower as it without skimping on armor or heatsinks. The way I see it, is you run a high heat build with a timber wolf, lots of lasers and heatsinks, skimp out on ballistics and missiles, or you run a missile based build, SRM/LRMs. At the point that you're using an energy based build, you can run a Hellbringer with just as many energy hardpoints, skimp out on a bit of tonnage but also be able to bring ECM, which is worth the change due to having better survivability without LRMs,, giving it a bunch of more utility for a game more centralized around team play, and being able to get rid of radar derp for target info gathering which is number 3 on the "mech modules to bring into battle". Also, at the point you're bringing a missile based build, you could just bring a Mad Dog with more missiles than it, which you're still running with less armor, you're bringing much more firepower with missiles and not getting rid of energy hardpoints. The problem with the timber wolf is that it tries to do what the Dire Wolf does with less tonnage and gets rocked for it. Not to mention the Timber's hitboxes are pretty easy to pick apart though the Hellbringer's aren't that small either.

Its a 75 ton mech that carries great firepower and goes as fast as a Medium while having the armor of a Heavy while having great hitboxes.

It can go 81 and still be great

[Dusk Raven]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

It moves 89kph.

My Hellbringer moves 81kph.
A King Crab moves 48kph.
My point is that what does this have to do with the conversation and what is "it"? I talked about 3 'mechs in that spiel and fail to see which one you're talking about. Also, if you're talking about the Timber, there's no point in arguing that "It's better because it goes faster." Then at that point we should all drop our Assault 'mechs for Firestarters and Spiders because why not.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 21 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Its a 75 ton mech that carries great firepower and goes as fast as a Medium while having the armor of a Heavy while having great hitboxes.

It can go 81 and still be great

The point is that it's a 75 ton 'mech that can be outdamaged by a 'mech 10 tons under it. Hell, 25 tons. I've seen Grid Irons do more damage than the "Overpowered Timbergod" because of the 50% gauss rifle cooldown.

[Jman5]

Quote

The solution I'm getting at is the rework the entire quirk system to balance ALL battlemechs, instead of just IS. The Nova could really use some love, and so could a few more of the clan 'mechs out there,

They are getting quirked as well. PGI just started out with the least played mechs in each weight class and will then work up from there.

[Dusk Raven]

Jman5, on 21 March 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

They are getting quirked as well. PGI just started out with the least played mechs in each weight class and will then work up from there.

Take a look at the summoner quirks and get back to me on that please.

[Hillslam]

please stop saying that when you lose 20% cooling due to xl st penalty that its any sort of penalty whatsoever, because it isn't. When you lose the ST, you've lost 50% of your weapons.

Edited by Hillslam, 21 March 2015 - 10:04 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hillslam, on 21 March 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

please stop saying that when you lose 20% cooling due to xl st penalty that its any sort of penalty whatsoever, because it isn't. When you lose the ST, you've lost 50% of your weapons.

plus while IS mechs don't lose that extra 20% for ST destruction..they just end up dead of at 50% less guns and cooling....and started the match with less than the Clans if the packed a STD engine.

[Dusk Raven]

Hillslam, on 21 March 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

please stop saying that when you lose 20% cooling due to xl st penalty that its any sort of penalty whatsoever, because it isn't. When you lose the ST, you've lost 50% of your weapons.

Not particularly the case.
For instance, take a look at my build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b0c56d89bfebecd
If my right torso goes, my cooling efficiency goes out the window because the heat is real on my left side. If my left side goes, I kiss my sorry butt goodbye because I'm out of my ECM. The heat penalty DOES matter.
EDIT: Not to mention if you're a kitfox with the right arm of JESUS you might as well bodyblock the enemy because without the ECM and triple AMS your 'mech build is done, son.

Edited by Dusk Raven, 21 March 2015 - 10:17 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 21 March 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

please stop saying that when you lose 20% cooling due to xl st penalty that its any sort of penalty whatsoever, because it isn't. When you lose the ST, you've lost 50% of your weapons.

It's noticeable on just about every Clam mech, actually.

Worse on the Mist Lynx, noticeable on Sword and Board Loki's.


Most builds don't use symmetrical loadouts.

[CocoaJin]

Don't need a counter argument, we just need to learn to sack up and shoot back.

[Mcgral18]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Although I do agree with the fact that they could use some more broad customization, I wouldn't say that any of the clan 'mechs are inherently bad, but they do require a decent pilot to drive them at the moment. They can't just be picked up and have the ease of use as IS 'mechs which is understandable, but the fact of the matter is that there should be a greater reward to using a more difficult to use 'mech, not to just quirk out all the low tier 'mechs to make them retardedly easy to use then keep the clan 'mechs in the dark or with the tiny quirks that the IS should be getting. The problem isn't really with the customization of the clan 'mechs, which I do wish I could fit a bigger engine in my Hellbringer, but that the IS 'mechs are overquirked to the point that there's no reason to bring a Clan 'mech when you can bring an IS 'mech that does everything better.

Mist Lynx, Badder, and Mr Gargles. All are objectively bad. They have terrible construction, especially in MWO with sub 250 engines.


Loki is just about perfect for the engine. You don't want bigger; all it really wants is Endo.

[Scraith Rukyr]

On top of all that, most of the clan arsenal is trash. The only few weapons that can do front loaded damage are PPCs, Gauss, and SRMs. Everything is a slow burn laser or a burst fire AC (also the LRMs pale compared to the wall of missiles that nail you from and IS launcher) . You could try and run an LB but that still fails in comparison to an IS AC. Meanwhile, with quirks, IS has front loaded lasers, rapid fire gauss and PPCs and the miracle of single shell ACs. Comparatively a Firestarter running 8 small pulse lasers completely out guns and out runs every clan light, some of the mediums, and a certain assault. The only thing that can keep up speed wise is the Ice Fridge which will most likely be running four ER mediums. That Firestarter wins outright because of its duration quirks and the Clan ERmedlas having such a long burn, longer cool down, and higher heat(albeit with a whopping extra 2 damage and some extra range.) Clans really either need IS style weapon quirks, or the IS needs to be dialed back just a touch.