65 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

What's the point of debates where both sides ignore arguments?

[Dusk Raven]

CocoaJin, on 21 March 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Don't need a counter argument, we just need to learn to sack up and shoot back.

Probably the most reasonable person on this thread, everyone.

[Dusk Raven]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Mist Lynx, Badder, and Mr Gargles. All are objectively bad. They have terrible construction, especially in MWO with sub 250 engines.


Loki is just about perfect for the engine. You don't want bigger; all it really wants is Endo.

Idunnoman, I've seen Mr. Gargles go with 700 damage before, and the Badder with 650. It's not horridable construction if you know what to do with it. This is why I enjoyed piloting a Dragon-5N before the quirks came out, everyone thought it was an inherently bad 'mech because of the hitboxes, although it's supposed to be a linebreaker/brawling 'mech anyways. The meta back then was the poptarts but I seemed to do well for myself in the Dragon because I knew how to drive it.

[Aiden Skye]

kapusta11, on 21 March 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

What's the point of debates where both sides ignore arguments?

Cuz IS cries for nerfs are getting rediculous, no matter how many buffs they recieve they just want more taken away from clans instead or playing their mechs to their strengths and weaknesses.

[Mcgral18]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Idunnoman, I've seen Mr. Gargles go with 700 damage before, and the Badder with 650. It's not horridable construction if you know what to do with it. This is why I enjoyed piloting a Dragon-5N before the quirks came out, everyone thought it was an inherently bad 'mech because of the hitboxes, although it's supposed to be a linebreaker/brawling 'mech anyways. The meta back then was the poptarts but I seemed to do well for myself in the Dragon because I knew how to drive it.

No, it's horrible construction because it could be done better. Badder loses two TrueDubs because it didn't spend 1.5 tons on a 245 engine, or 3.5 tons on a 280 engine. The Flamer removes a very important hardpoint, as well as 0.5 tons.

It could move at 142 with 13 tons of pod space, with 10 TrueDubs available. It doesn't, thus Badder.

Mist Lynx has over 10% of its pod space wasted on a cAP.

Mr Gargles has the heaviest engine in the game. For an assault, 700 damage is completely lacklustre.


Hell, why am I trying to argue with someone saying the TimberGod is Meh and the pre quirk Dragon was good?

[Adiuvo]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

My Hellbringer moves 81kph.
A King Crab moves 48kph.
My point is that what does this have to do with the conversation and what is "it"? I talked about 3 'mechs in that spiel and fail to see which one you're talking about. Also, if you're talking about the Timber, there's no point in arguing that "It's better because it goes faster." Then at that point we should all drop our Assault 'mechs for Firestarters and Spiders because why not.


The point is that it's a 75 ton 'mech that can be outdamaged by a 'mech 10 tons under it. Hell, 25 tons. I've seen Grid Irons do more damage than the "Overpowered Timbergod" because of the 50% gauss rifle cooldown.

First off, the Timberwolf, when properly piloted, isn't going to get outdamaged by anything but a Daishi or an AC5 Dragon that gets ignored. The range coupled with the speed (which is important due to its ability to outrotate just about everything else) leads it to having the most opportunities to get damage of any mech.

You're not really thinking about how mechs operate as a whole, and instead are just looking at alpha potential.

[Dusk Raven]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

No, it's horrible construction because it could be done better. Badder loses two TrueDubs because it didn't spend 1.5 tons on a 245 engine, or 3.5 tons on a 280 engine. The Flamer removes a very important hardpoint, as well as 0.5 tons.

It could move at 142 with 13 tons of pod space, with 10 TrueDubs available. It doesn't, thus Badder.

Mist Lynx has over 10% of its pod space wasted on a cAP.

Mr Gargles has the heaviest engine in the game. For an assault, 700 damage is completely lacklustre.


Hell, why am I trying to argue with someone saying the TimberGod is Meh and the pre quirk Dragon was good?

I never said the prequirk Dragon was good. I said that I enjoyed dropping in it because I could do well with a 'mech that everyone berated. Nevertheless, 700 damage is a big deal, no matter what weight class you 'mech is because the fact of the matter is that someone out there has enough skill as a pilot to actually pull something everyone thinks is bad into a good 'mech to use. It's not the point that I'm saying the Timber is meh either. It has it's place as an all-round Clan Heavy, but it's outshined by the specialization of other Clan 'mechs.

The point I'm trying to make (and it seems to fly over your head every time) is that everything is good when used right. Something that can be used as an all-purpose thing isn't inherently godlike and something specialized isn't trash.

[stjobe]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

The Timber Wolf is fine due to the fact that it is a 75 ton 'mech, compared to the 100 ton monster that the Dire Wolf is, it just can't carry as much firepower as it without skimping on armor or heatsinks.

WTH?

The Timby is fine because it can't bring as much weaponry as the Dire Wolf? Why the hell should it, it's 25 tons lighter!

[Mcgral18]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

I never said the prequirk Dragon was good. I said that I enjoyed dropping in it because I could do well with a 'mech that everyone berated. Nevertheless, 700 damage is a big deal, no matter what weight class you 'mech is because the fact of the matter is that someone out there has enough skill as a pilot to actually pull something everyone thinks is bad into a good 'mech to use. It's not the point that I'm saying the Timber is meh either. It has it's place as an all-round Clan Heavy, but it's outshined by the specialization of other Clan 'mechs.

The point I'm trying to make (and it seems to fly over your head every time) is that everything is good when used right. Something that can be used as an all-purpose thing isn't inherently godlike and something specialized isn't trash.

You're wrong, sorry.


1000 damage can be considered good. 700 doesn't cut it.


There are bad robots, due to multiple reasons. Some being hitboxes, hardpoints and their location, quirks, and with Clam mechs, their engines.

The above get shafted in nearly every regard. Just about every mech does their job better.

[Dusk Raven]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

First off, the Timberwolf, when properly piloted, isn't going to get outdamaged by anything but a Daishi or an AC5 Dragon that gets ignored. The range coupled with the speed (which is important due to its ability to outrotate just about everything else) leads it to having the most opportunities to get damage of any mech.

You're not really thinking about how mechs operate as a whole, and instead are just looking at alpha potential.

I'm sorry, but there are many more things that can outdamage a well piloted Timberwolf. How about a King Crab? The Crab can tote 4 UAC5s and still do more damage than the so called "Timbergod." It might not move fast or turn well, but if you're running an assault 'mech like the KGC or Daishi, you're running with that risk. The fact that some 'mechs can just alpha all day with more damage potential than other 'mechs and still contract the same heat is kind of silly. Grid Iron can just ping people with gauss slugs all day and it still can operate better than a Timber.

[Aresye]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Idunnoman, I've seen Mr. Gargles go with 700 damage before, and the Badder with 650. It's not horridable construction if you know what to do with it. This is why I enjoyed piloting a Dragon-5N before the quirks came out, everyone thought it was an inherently bad 'mech because of the hitboxes, although it's supposed to be a linebreaker/brawling 'mech anyways. The meta back then was the poptarts but I seemed to do well for myself in the Dragon because I knew how to drive it.

The Gargoyle is bad mainly because of its low slung hardpoints. Against a good IS team in CW running Stalkers and Thunderbolts with high mounted energy hardpoints, the Gargoyle just gets decimated before it can even crest a hill high enough to return fire.

The only Clan mech that can pack the right kind of firepower with the right hardpoints to engage in a poking battle with a Stalker or Thunderbolt is the Hellbringer, which is why you see it so much nowadays.

High hardpoints = Success when it comes to CW, and with the current quirked mechs, I'd say the IS actually has the range advantage. The Clan advantage is now relegated to a small distance of 400-700m. Anything farther out and the IS has the range advantage. Anything closer and the IS has the brawling advantage.

Idk, everything feels completely backwards nowadays.

[Dusk Raven]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

You're wrong, sorry.


1000 damage can be considered good. 700 doesn't cut it.


There are bad robots, due to multiple reasons. Some being hitboxes, hardpoints and their location, quirks, and with Clam mechs, their engines.

The above get shafted in nearly every regard. Just about every mech does their job better.

I rarely see any assault 'mechs go even close to the 1k damage area. The ones I do are one of two, King Crab and Dire Wolf, and that's because they can tote enough firepower to get to that damage threshold in one game as well as being high priority targets because well, 100 ton 'mechs are spooky. To be able to do 700 damage (That's enough to kill two entire teams of lights, an entire team of mediums, a quarter of a team of heavies, or a little less of 7 Daishi's Average CTs amount of damage) in a 'mech that's considered to be trash? That's a good pilot.

[Adiuvo]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but there are many more things that can outdamage a well piloted Timberwolf. How about a King Crab? The Crab can tote 4 UAC5s and still do more damage than the so called "Timbergod." It might not move fast or turn well, but if you're running an assault 'mech like the KGC or Daishi, you're running with that risk. The fact that some 'mechs can just alpha all day with more damage potential than other 'mechs and still contract the same heat is kind of silly. Grid Iron can just ping people with gauss slugs all day and it still can operate better than a Timber.

For a KGC to do that with 4 UAC5s it has to be ignored. Facetime is too high. The same applies to a GI.

[Dusk Raven]

Aresye, on 21 March 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

The Gargoyle is bad mainly because of its low slung hardpoints. Against a good IS team in CW running Stalkers and Thunderbolts with high mounted energy hardpoints, the Gargoyle just gets decimated before it can even crest a hill high enough to return fire.

The only Clan mech that can pack the right kind of firepower with the right hardpoints to engage in a poking battle with a Stalker or Thunderbolt is the Hellbringer, which is why you see it so much nowadays.

High hardpoints = Success when it comes to CW, and with the current quirked mechs, I'd say the IS actually has the range advantage. The Clan advantage is now relegated to a small distance of 400-700m. Anything farther out and the IS has the range advantage. Anything closer and the IS has the brawling advantage.

Idk, everything feels completely backwards nowadays.

Finally, someone who seems like they know what they're talking about, and actually plays the game once in a while.

The thing that I've taken from my thousands and thousands of game experience, whether that be from MWO, FPS games, RTS games, etc. is that positioning is key. If you have low slung hardpoints in a 'mech then why are you peeking over that hill instead of keeping all of your hardpoints open for a trade? I haven't ran a high slung hardpoint 'mech so I'm sitting here scratching my head at the point that "peeking over the hill = win" because I've always played brawling 'mechs since I started. Victor 9S was my first 'mech and I loaded it down with 3 SRM6 and an LB10-X and went to town since the LB10 had good range I wasn't skimping on that part, but the thing is I learned that low slung hardpoints don't do well in hillpeek fights and with my recent experience with the Yen Lo Wang, brawling 'mechs such as the ones I play do much better hanging back and are usually discredited by a lot of players since they usually get low damage since they're the cleanup crew. So as a brawler looking at a Gargoyle (a brawling 'mech) 700 damage is pretty great.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Most builds don't use symmetrical loadouts.

how is that PGIs fault? Live by the Sword and Board, die by the Sword and Board?

[Dusk Raven]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

For a KGC to do that with 4 UAC5s it has to be ignored. Facetime is too high. The same applies to a GI.

It's like you've never faced a 4 UAC5 KGC. The cockpit shake is stupid and is considered to be better than the Daishi right now because it's 20 pinpoint damage at the UAC5 fire rate. That translates to an insane amount of DPS and can take a lot of heavies and assaults down rather quickly. It's not the fact that the Crab is ignored, it's that you're probably more concerned about a squirrely little light than the UAC5 crab rounding the corner and coring out your CT.

Edited by Dusk Raven, 21 March 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but there are many more things that can outdamage a well piloted Timberwolf. How about a King Crab? The Crab can tote 4 UAC5s and still do more damage than the so called "Timbergod." It might not move fast or turn well, but if you're running an assault 'mech like the KGC or Daishi, you're running with that risk. The fact that some 'mechs can just alpha all day with more damage potential than other 'mechs and still contract the same heat is kind of silly. Grid Iron can just ping people with gauss slugs all day and it still can operate better than a Timber.

Lol. Sorry dude, but when you try telling one of the better comp pilots out there how the game actually is played? You just lost. Period.

*SMH*

Do you use a steering wheel or something?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 March 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Lol. Sorry dude, but when you try telling one of the better comp pilots out there how the game actually is played? You just lost. Period.

*SMH*

Do you use a steering wheel or something?

He did use an LB10x...

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

He did use an LB10x...

[Dusk Raven]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Lol. Sorry dude, but when you try telling one of the better comp pilots out there how the game actually is played? You just lost. Period.

*SMH*

Do you use a steering wheel or something?

The problem with that is that the regular game and competitive game are two different animals. Comp games never go like normal games go and I don't expect any comp players to realize that. Remember that the competitive scene used to be poptarts and embers running around, and that's not really how Battletech should look so 99% of comp play is metagame taken to a serious level. Normal games include people actually trying something different and yeah, it might be considered "bad" but a good enough pilot is able to pull it off. This is why I hate competitive players is because of two things:
1.) They have more pull than a normal player and people just side to them instantly without even reading the evidence put forth
2.) They play hardcore meta and to them anyone who doesn't play the meta are bad

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

He did use an LB10x...

I used the LB10-X because it can actually be considered to be good. It's to the point why people run machine guns is because of the high critical rate, and if I could have run an LB20-X I would have. I was more concerned about getting the crits on the internal systems after my lasers had opened them up.