65 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

I used the LB10-X because it can actually be considered to be good. It's to the point why people run machine guns is because of the high critical rate, and if I could have run an LB20-X I would have. I was more concerned about getting the crits on the internal systems after my lasers had opened them up.

FupDup, on 21 March 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

[Novawrecker]

kapusta11, on 21 March 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

What's the point of debates where both sides ignore arguments?

This is called Internetiquette

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

The Timber Wolf is fine due to the fact that it is a 75 ton 'mech, compared to the 100 ton monster that the Dire Wolf is, it just can't carry as much firepower as it ...

Huh? D00d, what sort of banana peel are you smoking? It's 25 tons lighter and it doesn't need to tote as much firepower as a Dire. It's a friggin Timberwolf. It can carry 5 weapons and still tear through mechs like no tomorrow.

Edited by Novawrecker, 21 March 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[Dusk Raven]

FupDup, on 21 March 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

You joke about it but an LB10-X can do more damage than an AC20. It's fact of the matter of critical and my build at the point couldn't support two AC5s because of my lasers. I never said it was good. I never said the Dragon was good. I just said I ran it because I had fun with it and that's really what it comes down to.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

The Resistance Mechs are too good.

[Dusk Raven]

Novawrecker, on 21 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

This is called Internetiquette




Huh? D00d, what sort of banana peel are you smoking? It's 25 tons lighter and it doesn't need to tote as much firepower as a Dire. It's a friggin Timberwolf. It can carry 5 weapons and still tear through mechs like no tomorrow.

The thing I was saying, and I guess my point didn't get across. Is that the Timber is trying to do what the Dire can do and bring everything and it's mother to the party. By having an overamounting number of hardpoints it's just like "Okay I want to run all this stuff. Crap, I don't have enough room for more armor/heatsinks, better get rid of some damage so I can make room" Rinse and repeat until a more specialized 'mech is better.

[Mcgral18]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

You joke about it but an LB10-X can do more damage than an AC20. It's fact of the matter of critical and my build at the point couldn't support two AC5s because of my lasers. I never said it was good. I never said the Dragon was good. I just said I ran it because I had fun with it and that's really what it comes down to.

No, actually.

It has a 0.0000000000006% chance to deal the SAME Critical damage as an AC20, which is a maximum of 60.

That translates to 9 internal structure damage.


The AC20 has a 3% chance to deal that. Much better odds.

[Novawrecker]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

The thing I was saying, and I guess my point didn't get across. Is that the Timber is trying to do what the Dire can do and bring everything and it's mother to the party. By having an overamounting number of hardpoints it's just like "Okay I want to run all this stuff. Crap, I don't have enough room for more armor/heatsinks, better get rid of some damage so I can make room" Rinse and repeat until a more specialized 'mech is better.

Sorry to disagree with you, but you're the first person I've seen say this. Almost all players that use the Timber competitively do not mount it through the teeth as if it were a dire. I've seen Timbies run 5 weapons, 3 of them being ER meds (guess what the other 2 are?), coupled with one of the heavier TCs, and they are a nightmare to face against. Granted, this isn't the only build that's feared, but my point is your perception of this mech is far off.

Edited by Novawrecker, 21 March 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Dusk Raven]

Novawrecker, on 21 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Almost all players that use the Timber competitively

Here you go. Now go play a regular game and look at a timber there. I'm done talking with competitive players and their metas because I just don't have time for it. Metas are things that competitive players use because using anything else would make them lose and their KDA would go down, or new players use because they know they don't know the game and want to get better so they use the best equipment.

So to everyone in this thread, I'm sorry for trying to have fun playing a video game and bringing my two cents into the forums.

Edited by Dusk Raven, 21 March 2015 - 11:25 AM.

[Novawrecker]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

Here you go. Now go play a regular game and look at a timber there. I'm done talking with competitive players and their metas because I just don't have time for it

Meta, Schmeta! Even regular games you'll see these builds. People go with what works, regardless of the source. If this sours your morning breakfast then there's not much anyone can do for you.

You're welcomed to bring your two cents, expect others to do the same. But to complain about the better builds out there is just nonsense (especially when your conversation is leading toward bringing better builds than "Timbers armed to the teeth"). Eventually, it comes down to just that: use what brings results.

Edited by Novawrecker, 21 March 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[Ultimax]

We can't simply ignore the reality that clan tech has:

> Totally superior Lasers
> Totally superior Gauss
> Totally superior SRMs
> Totally superior Engines
> Totally superior DHS, Active Probe, ECM

> Ballistics that are deadly if boated
> LRMs that are at worst on even footing.

> Technically even their machine guns are superior.


Then there is Endo & Ferro, they are restricted and locked.

This simply prevents some mechs from optimizing with them, but outright they are superior in function to IS versions.

With Clan Endo being only 7 slots, Clan Ferro being only 7 slots and giving 20% weight savings instead of 12%.





A lot of players like to throw the sub-optimal clan mechs out as a reason to say "it's only a few mechs!"


But as we can see, we will continually get new clan mechs.

Top Tier Uber Assault? Dire Wolf.
Top Tier Heavies? Timber Wolf, Hellbringer for sure. Ebon Jaguar will likely be top tier as well.
Top Tier Mediums? Storm Crow. Shadow Cat will be excellent, not sure if T1 simply because it's 45 tons. It will be as good as or better than IS 45 tonners though, and some of their 50 tonners.
Top Tier Light? Arctic Cheetah will likely be top tier.



These mechs aren't top tier because they were given some special treatment, they aren't top tier through divine command.


They are top tier because they are the best at harnessing clan tech's superior options without being hampered by TT design elements that simply aren't good in MWO (primarily engine sizes, JJs that don't perform like JJs, higher ammo requirements than TT, higher DHS requirements, Poor Locked item locations in an FPS like the Warhawk's LT, etc)



It took tons of quirks to get SOME IS mechs to T2.

Not T1, T2.

There is no T1 IS mech in this game right now.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 March 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Soy]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Comparing the other Clan 'mechs to these three it kind of becomes moot, since the Stormcrow is better than the Nova is quite possibly every way: There's the fact that it can do the same exact amount of damage the Nova can, have 5 extra tons of space, move faster, put more heatsinks, better taccomps, more damaging builds, better hitboxes, etc. So there's no reason to run a Nova when you can run a Stormcrow.

Look, Crow is only good cuz the broken hitbox.

Do you guys really think flinging a bunch of Streaks, or *gasp* SRM6s and aiming at peoples legs from 20m away is somehow super broken or tough or something?

A ******* monkey could play that build.

A Nova can JJ btw, Crow cannot, so therefore the Crow is not better in quite possibly every way.

In addition, boating Streaks or SRM6s gives it exactly same damage as a Nova boating SL or SPL. Also, if you're gonna say take 3 Miss with 6 Ener, good luck with heat...

All that mech does well is make decent players live longer than they should while they soak phantom damage on it and wheel around in circles like a child on a tricycle throwing firecrackers in a cul-de-sac. That's what that mech looks like when it boils down to its glorious moment.

I'm tired of people sucking that mechs **** when in reality its a piece of garbage that people are only crutching its endurance through approximately twice the damage they would in any other mech.

If Crow had its hitbox fixed then it'd be where it should've been all along, which is a full cut below its current position.

Yeah it moves agile but that's supposed to be its schtick.

Edited by Soy, 21 March 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Dusk Raven]

Novawrecker, on 21 March 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Meta, Schmeta! Even regular games you'll see these builds. People go with what works, regardless of the source. If this sours your morning breakfast then there's not much anyone can do for you.

You're welcomed to bring your two cents, expect others to do the same. But to complain about the better builds out there is just nonsense (especially when your conversation is leading toward bringing better builds than "Timbers armed to the teeth"). Eventually, it comes down to just that: use what brings results.

Just played against one of your "spooky" ER Med Laser "TimberGods" I completely murdered him in my Hellbringer because I have significantly more damage, ECM, and the fact that I'm running two machine guns to crit his CT. I'm not impressed. The problem is that my experience in playing normal games doesn't get through because comp play is all meta. There's a different way to play solo/group queue because you have to rely more on yourself to make up for the fact that your team could quite possibly be utterly stupid. Yeah, the Timber Wolf is decent. I said that before. It's just not spooky-scary-skeletons level of "Oh no I don't want to be where I'm at right now" spooky that the Quad UAC5 Crab brings to the table.

[Adiuvo]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

The problem with that is that the regular game and competitive game are two different animals. Comp games never go like normal games go and I don't expect any comp players to realize that. Remember that the competitive scene used to be poptarts and embers running around, and that's not really how Battletech should look so 99% of comp play is metagame taken to a serious level. Normal games include people actually trying something different and yeah, it might be considered "bad" but a good enough pilot is able to pull it off. This is why I hate competitive players is because of two things:
1.) They have more pull than a normal player and people just side to them instantly without even reading the evidence put forth
2.) They play hardcore meta and to them anyone who doesn't play the meta are bad



I used the LB10-X because it can actually be considered to be good. It's to the point why people run machine guns is because of the high critical rate, and if I could have run an LB20-X I would have. I was more concerned about getting the crits on the internal systems after my lasers had opened them up.

Wrong on all points. Competitive players play normal queue just like everyone else.

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

Here you go. Now go play a regular game and look at a timber there. I'm done talking with competitive players and their metas because I just don't have time for it. Metas are things that competitive players use because using anything else would make them lose and their KDA would go down, or new players use because they know they don't know the game and want to get better so they use the best equipment.

So to everyone in this thread, I'm sorry for trying to have fun playing a video game and bringing my two cents into the forums.

You're trying to talk about game balance while ignoring all of the best builds. As such, you really have no relevant conclusions to draw. Your premise is already wrong.

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

It's like you've never faced a 4 UAC5 KGC. The cockpit shake is stupid and is considered to be better than the Daishi right now because it's 20 pinpoint damage at the UAC5 fire rate. That translates to an insane amount of DPS and can take a lot of heavies and assaults down rather quickly. It's not the fact that the Crab is ignored, it's that you're probably more concerned about a squirrely little light than the UAC5 crab rounding the corner and coring out your CT.

Good players can aim just fine through cockpit shake. It's not that big of an issue.

You can't torso twist while firing UAC5s. This is the main issue. You will get CT cored by a 91pt alpha Daishi from 600m relatively quickly.

lol at you thinking i'm bad.

[Dusk Raven]

Soy, on 21 March 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Look, Crow is only good cuz the broken hitbox.

Do you guys really think flinging a bunch of Streaks, or *gasp* SRM6s and aiming at peoples legs from 20m away is somehow super broken or tough or something?

A ******* monkey could play that build.

A Nova can JJ btw, Crow cannot, so therefore the Crow is not better in quite possibly every way.

In addition, boating Streaks or SRM6s gives it exactly same damage as a Nova boating SL or SPL. Also, if you're gonna say take 3 Miss with 6 Ener, good luck with heat...

All that mech does well is make decent players live longer than they should while they soak phantom damage on it and wheel around in circles like a child on a tricycle throwing firecrackers in a cul-de-sac. That's what that mech looks like when it boils down to its glorious moment.

I'm tired of people sucking that mechs **** when in reality its a piece of garbage that people are only crutching its endurance through approximately twice the damage they would in any other mech.

If Crow had its hitbox fixed then it'd be where it should've been all along, which is a full cut below its current position.

Yeah it moves agile but that's supposed to be its schtick.

It's schtick is that even if it's hitboxes are fixed, it's a stupid level of damage on a stupid level of speed that turns into some sort of stupid that shouldn't be so stupid. I'm surprised that nobody called me out on putting a TarComp 7 on that Stormcrow because you could use those crit slots and tonnage much better.

[Soy]

For people questioning what I'm insinuating... meditate on this notion:

If Nova and Crow exchanged hitboxes, which mech would be more prevalent.

-.-

[Dusk Raven]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Wrong on all points. Competitive players play normal queue just like everyone else.

You're trying to talk about game balance while ignoring all of the best builds. As such, you really have no relevant conclusions to draw. Your premise is already wrong.


Good players can aim just fine through cockpit shake. It's not that big of an issue.

You can't torso twist while firing UAC5s. This is the main issue. You will get CT cored by a 91pt alpha Daishi from 600m relatively quickly.

lol at you thinking i'm bad.

Do they really? I never see it at all. Ever. Not once. Nope. Also, where did this conversation lead? To the point where everyone ignored the point of the original post, which is to say that the IS 'mechs are overquirked than the Clan 'mechs because, well, Grid Iron ladies and gentlemen.

[luxebo]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

My Hellbringer moves 81kph.
A King Crab moves 48kph.

And the Hellbringer does more damage and wins any 1v1. Even with no basics unlocked.

Soy, on 21 March 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

If Nova and Crow exchanged hitboxes, which mech would be more prevalent.

Most likely the Crow would maintain SSRM/SRM boating role, while Nova would make the laser vomit/gauss vomit role perfect. So if that was the case both of them would be more prevalent.

Edited by luxebo, 21 March 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[Novawrecker]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Just played against one of your "spooky" ER Med Laser "TimberGods" I completely murdered him in my Hellbringer because I have significantly more damage, ECM, and the fact that I'm running two machine guns to crit his CT. I'm not impressed. The problem is that my experience in playing normal games doesn't get through because comp play is all meta. There's a different way to play solo/group queue because you have to rely more on yourself to make up for the fact that your team could quite possibly be utterly stupid. Yeah, the Timber Wolf is decent. I said that before. It's just not spooky-scary-skeletons level of "Oh no I don't want to be where I'm at right now" spooky that the Quad UAC5 Crab brings to the table.

1) I don't own a single Clan mech. Currently, I doubt I ever will. But I do face them all the time and we get to the point on knowing what those builds are so we can learn what to expect and how to look for weaknesses (if any).
2) You're using PUG matches to compare competitive play. MAJOR MISTAKE
3) That "Timber God" you so eloquently put it, takes down Quad AC5 Crab with little effort. Can also take out that Hellbringer with just as much ease. It's all down to the pilot.
4) Comp play is competitive players bringing their A game along with bringing the best of builds. Builds alone do not make a game.

Edited by Novawrecker, 21 March 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Dusk Raven, on 21 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

Do they really? I never see it at all. Ever. Not once. Nope. Also, where did this conversation lead? To the point where everyone ignored the point of the original post, which is to say that the IS 'mechs are overquirked than the Clan 'mechs because, well, Grid Iron ladies and gentlemen.

If you don't see it then it's a matchmaking issue. Go watch twitch streams and you'll see it often - Heimdelight, Celyth, JagerXII, TwinkyOverlord, Proton, etc..

The original point of the post is being addressed, by people telling you that your conclusions on the power disparity between clan and IS leaves a bit to be desired.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

No, actually.

It has a 0.0000000000006% chance to deal the SAME Critical damage as an AC20, which is a maximum of 60.

That translates to 9 internal structure damage.


The AC20 has a 3% chance to deal that. Much better odds.

plus oh, IDK, PP 20 damage on everything, all the time? I use the LB-X on a few builds because "reasons" (Autoshotty IS fun on the CN9-D) but.... if I could mount a standard ac10 on those same builds? Better believe I would, in a heartbeat. Let alone a 20.