139 replies to this topic

[BARBAR0SSA]

Telmasa, on 21 March 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

There's OP clan weapons. (ERML [it's a 1-ton IS LL, little too stronk], streaks [that range, wow])

If we just compare the ghost heat ISLL limit:

540M with common Quirks on IS LL throw in quirks and it's about 9 damage, 6.25 heat 0.87s burn time
750M(Hard cap, it goes well beyond) for IS ERLL Throw in quirks 9 damage 7.2 Heat 1.1s burn time

cERML 7dmg 6 heat 405M 1.15s Burn time

Clan for 24 heat you get 28 damage
IS for 18.75 heat you get 27 Damage and 135M more range @ cost of 11T but it's worth it to keep that range and burn time.

Not to mention you need to pack in 4 heat sinks to burn off the extra heat over 10s I might add, and a what TC 7 to get the ERML to 450M(stock LL)

Right there erased all tonnage advantage to get the exact same stock weapon. Not to mention it took a LOT more slots.

The numbers show that the LL is far superior except that you can fire 6 MLs at the same time compare to the 3x2 you need to do for ISLL, but with that reduced burn time, and massive range advantage, heat advantage however the 3 extra MLs don't require the TC7 to be added.

But there is still this disadvantage of waiting 10s for all that extra heat to dissipate, everyone just assumes that the extra heatsinks INSTANTLY stop the extra heat. You're better off having weapons that don't do extra heat.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

My issue is when they use the garbage clan mechs to justify some of the clan weapons that are clearly superior to IS options.

You are one of the biggest perpetrators of asymmetrical examples, and shifting the discussion to obviously mismatched comparisons. Please. Stop.

[Ultimax]

Gyrok, on 23 March 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

You are one of the biggest perpetrators of asymmetrical examples, and shifting the discussion to obviously mismatched comparisons. Please. Stop.

No dude, I'm comparing weapon systems and base equipment like engines & 2 crit slot DHS.

You know the things every mech in the faction has to use?


You are one of the ones that cherry picks the best IS quirked mechs, fill your posts full of hyperbole and use the worst case scenario clan builds in comparison.


If I toss out a laser comparison you toss out the STK-4N like it's the only IS mech that needs to use LLAS.

If someone tosses out the DWF, suddenly it's "But the Nova! But the Summoner!!!"

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 23 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

4:10 to 4:15 in particular should be enlightening, with all the talk of "invincible unhittable firestarter" nonsense we see bandied about, or ravens who dance 50m from 4 or 5 timber wolves.

An Arty blew out a RT?

Yes, but how does that impact weapon hitreg? Ten 35 damage explosives, with splash damage.

Ultimatum X, on 23 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

If someone tosses out the DWF, suddenly it's "But the Nova! But the Summoner!!!"

That's because people keep yelling CLAMS OP PLZ NERF, BLANKET NERFS!!1!


Blanket nerfs, even more of them, which ruin those bad robots. At least fix them before the blanket nerfs.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

My issue is when they use the garbage clan mechs to justify some of the clan weapons that are clearly superior to IS options.

And it happens the same, just the other way around, when people use the OP mechs to justify clan nerfs.
We didn't called for nerfing IS as the TDR as OP, because this is not how balance is reached.

Ultimatum X, on 23 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

No dude, I'm comparing weapon systems and base equipment like engines & 2 crit slot DHS.

You know the things every mech in the faction has to use?


You are one of the ones that cherry picks the best IS quirked mechs, fill your posts full of hyperbole and use the worst case scenario clan builds in comparison.


If I toss out a laser comparison you toss out the STK-4N like it's the only IS mech that needs to use LLAS.

If someone tosses out the DWF, suddenly it's "But the Nova! But the Summoner!!!"

And you fail delivering proper comparisons, because the base equipment differs, while the base frame you have to use this equipment in differs too.

the base frame is fixed JJ's fixed equips, fixed armor/structure slots. even fixed engines.

and so in all the min max gameplay, Is has the better changes to maximise, becuase a clanmech has by nature already in engine and structure + hardpoints, to come with those optimised customisations as stock loadout. Clanners are the best, the medicore and the worst. While the IS is also the best the medicore and the worst. Totally depending on the viewpoint from which mech you look. its not a general clan vs is discussion.

Otherwise, would you really use clantech on an IS mech if:

it has to keep its stock sturcture and armor.
it has to keep stock equpment (except shs being upgradable to DHS)
it has to fixed structure and armor in case it has some.

Across the entire board, there would most IS mechs being rendered useless, because: ****** engines, ****** fixed stuff.
a very very few iS mechs actually would truly hine by the clan construcion rules.

So really, lets make an example,

build me a IS light loadout you would pilot under the following rules:

forced to use stock engine size as XL
forced to use ES/FF but only at 7 crits each. filling 2 legs, 3 sidetorso 1 arm. 1 cokcpit 1 CT (or 2CT if there is fixed equip in the head).
use clanweapons.
keep stock SHS fixed in their location and upgrade them to DHS - move legs to ST's
keep stock equipment except ams.

now build me the awesome IS light these rules allow.

Clan equip on IS construction rules.
Now that would allow another level of Op-ness for every chassis (no matter if IS or clan) coming with the right hardpoints and geometry.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 March 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 23 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

No dude, I'm comparing weapon systems and base equipment like engines & 2 crit slot DHS.

You know the things every mech in the faction has to use?


You are one of the ones that cherry picks the best IS quirked mechs, fill your posts full of hyperbole and use the worst case scenario clan builds in comparison.


If I toss out a laser comparison you toss out the STK-4N like it's the only IS mech that needs to use LLAS.

If someone tosses out the DWF, suddenly it's "But the Nova! But the Summoner!!!"

I. CALL. BS.

Frankly, you compare scenarios using base weapons on highly quirked mechs...which is basically ignoring the reason those mechs are popular and saying..."See, this IS is not OP...but that unquirked Nova can do 5 DPS sustained..."

Nevermind the 15 DPS Dragons with 2xAC5 or the 16 DPS 6LL Stalkers with Quirks...but TW that has *less* range and *less* DPS (while clans are *SUPPOSED* to be the DPS side, mind you) is somehow superior outright?

No...they both have their advantages and disadvantages, however, both sides have bad robots. It just tends to be that for the clans right now...since we have 13, and 2 are passable, 2 are good, and 9 suck...we have mostly bad robots...where the IS has an absurd amount of chassis, and most of them are passable or better...very few suck and a handful are REALLY good.

[iliketurtles87]

only Timberwolf and Stormcrows are op. Nerf them hard and the game is balanced

[KraftySOT]

Ultimatum X, on 23 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Krafty, this is what it looks like when someone who knows what they are doing pilots a Dire Wolf.





This is contrary to all of the nonsense we see with guys running perma-clan faction tags convinced the DWF is "bad".

The reality is those players are bads, not the DWF.

4:10 to 4:15 in particular should be enlightening, with all the talk of "invincible unhittable firestarter" nonsense we see bandied about, or ravens who dance 50m from 4 or 5 timber wolves.

Rofl to be fair, that light took less than half the damage that hit it, then stood there to get artied.

The same can be said of the other team. That DWF pilot may be terrible, because that other team is completely terrible. You can see on siesmic he's horribly outnumbered and they just let him kill them.

1 v 5 shouldnt have 5 individual 1 v 1s.

The one guy who actually knows what he's doing, almost kills the Dire in 9 seconds.

He also never came up against anything that counters a Dire, other than the light that runs right into his guns

My favorite part is after he dies, and it follows the next guy, and he's shooting up that Timber, and destroys his arm, only to have it actually 'count' a full 2 seconds later.



If this guy, and that Dire met.

The Ember wins.

And of course, id love to see these pilots in other mechs too. That guy did great in a Dire. What can he do in a Stalker I wonder.

Edited by KraftySOT, 23 March 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Gyrok, on 23 March 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

and most of them are passable or better...

Nope.

There are less than 10 total good mechs. Everything else is a waste of time to even drop unless youre having to grind it out.

I may disagree with some finer points about Dires, Stalkers, Banshees, etc than Ultimatum, but his tier list is still pretty darned good, and theres frankly only about 3 mechs in the first tier on either side, then a few specialist mechs like short range Wubstarters.

Edited by KraftySOT, 23 March 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[KraftySOT]

There are plenty of light pilots out there in Wubstarters who can do their medium pulse thang to a Dire's back and kill it in two hits.

You generally only need two 40 damage alpha strikes to knock one out. Most mechs can do that. Just most mechs cant out turn a Dires rotation, and most pilots cant position well enough to make the shot, or make the shot twice when positioned.

Edited by KraftySOT, 23 March 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Gyrok]

KraftySOT, on 23 March 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Nope.

There are less than 10 total good mechs. Everything else is a waste of time to even drop unless youre having to grind it out.

I may disagree with some finer points about Dires, Stalkers, Banshees, etc than Ultimatum, but his tier list is still pretty darned good, and theres frankly only about 3 mechs in the first tier on either side, then a few specialist mechs like short range Wubstarters.

I would rank the following mechs as 'passable'.

WVR-6K
WVR-6R
DRG-1N
STK-4N
TDR-5SS
TDR-9S
TDR-5S
JM6-S
JM6-FB
BLR-1S
KGC-000
KGC-0000
FS9-A
FS9-S
RVN-3L
CN9-A
CN9-YLW
BNC-3E
HBK-GI
HBK-4P
HBK-4SP
HBK-4H
SDR-5D


That is not a short list of 'passable' mechs...and the lot of those are solid mid-tier or better,

Clans are so binary right now, there are 2 good mechs, 2 above average mechs, and 9 trash tier mechs...

[cSand]

KraftySOT, on 23 March 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

There are less than 10 total good mechs. Everything else is a waste of time to even drop unless youre having to grind it out.

"good" is relative to who's driving frankly

[Karl Streiger]

Haha Gyrok Nice try did you ever had a time where you had Is Mechs?

Those list could be broken down to Quirks for Ac5s that is because ton for ton there is hardly a better ballistic ingame. And Llas Quirks what is funny because 6 Clan ERMLAS can dish out as four quirked Large LLaser. Of course you can say Clan ERMLAS create more heat as 4 LLAS but i would say 6 vs 20ton ggclose

Not to mention that all those is Mechs are heavy situation dependend - and wont work all the time

[Gyrok]

Karl Streiger, on 23 March 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

Haha Gyrok Nice try did you ever had a time where you had Is Mechs?

Those list could be broken down to Quirks for Ac5s that is because ton for ton there is hardly a better ballistic ingame. And Llas Quirks what is funny because 6 Clan ERMLAS can dish out as four quirked Large LLaser. Of course you can say Clan ERMLAS create more heat as 4 LLAS but i would say 6 vs 20ton ggclose

Not to mention that all those is Mechs are heavy situation dependend - and wont work all the time

I have 115 mech bays and 15 are empty...I currently own 40 clan mechs.

[Telmasa]

shad0w4life, on 23 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

If we just compare the ghost heat ISLL limit:
540M with common Quirks on IS LL throw in quirks

If you're considering the effects of the Quirkening, of course that skews things considerably. Quirks are game-breaking by nature.

You don't *need* to push the range out with a TC, and you really don't need more than 1 or 2 heatsinks per CERML to cover the heat.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Krafty, obviously your entire premise for this thread is faulty, because everyone knows the Spitfire is indeed OP, the evidence is clear and non-arguable, the Allies won WW2!

Sorry man, had to do that, I agree with you on both the planes(love em both, but I'm more partial to the 109 as well) and the current state of parity in MWO.

PGI seems to disagree with us however, as their data evidently shows the Clans are still slightly more powerful than they want, and since they actually have real data to use and we don't...*shrug*

I think the Clan Mechs do need some love, outside of the Trinity especially so, and all of them SHOULD have true OmniPods, not this halfassed bs we have now. Entire point of an Omni is that you can put any weapon in any location, PGI AT LEAST needs to make OmniPods for all the chassis who can't currently equip Energy, Ballistic and Missiles on them, and they need to redo them so that they can mount those in ANY Pod location, stop with the neutering and forcing them to put ONLY this or that in THIS location only, all locations should be able to hold all weapon types, slots open will do the rest.

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 23 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Krafty, obviously your entire premise for this thread is faulty, because everyone knows the Spitfire is indeed OP, the evidence is clear and non-arguable, the Allies won WW2!

Sorry man, had to do that, I agree with you on both the planes(love em both, but I'm more partial to the 109 as well) and the current state of parity in MWO.

PGI seems to disagree with us however, as their data evidently shows the Clans are still slightly more powerful than they want, and since they actually have real data to use and we don't...*shrug*

I think the Clan Mechs do need some love, outside of the Trinity especially so, and all of them SHOULD have true OmniPods, not this halfassed bs we have now. Entire point of an Omni is that you can put any weapon in any location, PGI AT LEAST needs to make OmniPods for all the chassis who can't currently equip Energy, Ballistic and Missiles on them, and they need to redo them so that they can mount those in ANY Pod location, stop with the neutering and forcing them to put ONLY this or that in THIS location only, all locations should be able to hold all weapon types, slots open will do the rest.

I am curious as to what data they are using...the only thing they have to gauge is CW, where pubs go to get stomped by organized 12 mans routinely...

[KraftySOT]

Gyrok, on 23 March 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

DRG-1N
STK-4N
TDR-5SS
TDR-9S
JM6-S
KGC-000
KGC-0000
FS9-A
RVN-3L
BNC-3M
HBK-GI
HBK-4P

I fixt it fer u.

[Red1769]

Gyrok, on 23 March 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

I am curious as to what data they are using...the only thing they have to gauge is CW, where pubs go to get stomped by organized 12 mans routinely...

And let's not forget to mention faction swapping from IS to Clan and vice versa and IS infighting...I'm sure there's plenty of other reasons not to use the CW map as a guide...

[Gyrok]

KraftySOT, on 23 March 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

I fixt it fer u.

The 3LL WVR is just fine...so is the "pocket dragon" WVR too...the FS9-S is the medpulse monster...

I think you missed quite a few...