106 replies to this topic

[Krysic]

Axeface, on 23 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Strangely, I know for a fact that if I earnt cbills faster I would spend more money, because I cant buy mechs without mech bays.

Nailed it. The mechbay is the only real non-cosmetic micro transaction in the game.

(Don't get me started on the cockpit items that no one else can see and just clutter up your view or the colors that I'd have hundreds of if they cost $1.50 each instead of $5. I have 2 blacks that look exactly the same, what a ripoff.)

For anyone who doesn't see the value in ponying up for a pre-sale the mechbay is the only real window into tighter wallets.

Problem is in MW:O behind every money sink there are 1-2 time sinks, or another money sink. People want to pay once, conveniently. Make it convenient for them and they'll do it over and over and over again. Make it difficult and most of them will just go somewhere else.

I want PGI to be making millions a month so the game development can speed up and they can all hit the forums happy with their yachts and mansions but at this rate I seriously fear that we'll never see the game live up to it's potential.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Welcome back! Yes, I agree that there are a lot of "nifty new 'mechs" available since you were last with us but I apologize you feel that playing a game feels "draining" to you. As for me, I enjoy the grind. Gives me something to do with my free time while I wait for the next offline event to come around.

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

I just returned from a bit of an absense due to technical difficulties, was looking at some of the nifty new mechs available and thinking of diving into them but after awhile of playing it just feels draining. I enjoy playing, have since early closed beta, but it feels like the grind to something new is so large I'm not sure I have the desire to do it.

The KGC looks awesome and I can hardly wait 'til I'm able to pilot one whether it's through the Trial 'Mechs or earning enough C-Bills to purchase one. I believe the 'mechs are designed to be standard without XP when freshly bought (unless you piloted them through the available Trial 'Mechs and stocked up 'Mech XP that way) and the unlocking of the bonuses improve the base model. I could be wrong and the unlocks are actually used to bring the nerf'd newly bought 'mech up to code but I never did fully investigate/research it. But I also think it's a decent mechanic design for the player to have to get at least three variants of the same 'mech to Master anything of that variant. Gives the player initiative to actually keep busy and keep working towards their goals.

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

I had the thought of picking up a KGC to try out a ballistic build, only need 4 mllion for that so thats not so bad.. but no thats not really true is it. It's not four million for that KGC, it's actually more like 23 million + upgrades and parts thanks to the levelings system. a single unmastered KGC is likely to feel slow, sluggish and unlikely to give me a good impression of whether it's even enjoyable since it's not actually performing up to snuff yet.

That just may be the main idea of what the moderators had in mind. Drive players to try different things so it doesn't become too monotonous with gameplay. Things get too monotonous.. players get bored.. they start to rant then eventually they bail. Nobody is forcing you to "waste your money" on anything you don't want to. The game isn't designed or geared for "Oh, you only won because you spent X amount of currency to get where you are now!" like some games I've played online. The only difference is that the ones who do pay money have access to "extra" features and new items that were introduced before the freeloaders like myself can get their hands on them.

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well those depressing thoughts in my head I decided eh maybe I'll try something a little more unorthodox: pick up an ice ferret, I've seen people saying it's somewhat mediocre since introduction but I think I might enjoy it.. then I notice this medium is actually even more expensive than a Kingcrab, 30+ million investment before I have a true handle on whether I've wasted my money.

So basically, from my personal observation, you're all about the instant quick-fix features of games and programs where you don't have to break a sweat getting anything you have your sights set on so you don't have any worry or fear that your free time has been wasted. That's fine, I don't have a problem with that mindset but would be nice if you kept in mind that not everyone thinks like that.. There are players who would rather grind and work for what they want using up their free time while taking a break from reality instead of obtaining empty victories.

I'm happy to know that you've dedicated so much time playing this game for so long without giving up completely. I really enjoy playing this game with what free time I have too. But I'm also happy that this game isn't a P2W/P2P design 'cause as much as I love this game.. my wallet is geared more towards putting clothes on my back, food in my belly and keeping a roof over my head.. so if it became required for me to pay a subscription fee to keep my freeloading butt here.. I'd vanish like a fart in the wind.

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

This just seems silly to me. I know the thought is supposedly grind = longer play time = more microtransaction profit (though I protest the notion that 20+ bucks per mech is a "micro" anything) but it's the opposite for me. I enjoy the mechs I own, I have over a dozen (not sure of the exact number), but I've also played them all for so long that I don't really want to spend another month+ in them just to get a chance to try something new that I might not even like. I've invested hundreds of hours in MWO over the years, I don't need a progression treadmill to keep me here, in fact its the treadmill that is kind of sapping my desire to play at all.

Eventually I'll sit down and figure out if the unlock bonuses are in fact bonuses or if they are just used to bring the 'mech up to date with what it has to offer.

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Relatedly, the leveling mechaninc (which I've always only barely tolerated) is really becoming more and more distasteful for me. I love the Timberwolf, not because of it's supposed bandwagon OPness but because I like many others simply have nostalgic feelings for that design, yet by the time I was starting my third TBW I was almost sick of running it. It'd be one thing of the skill unlocks were marginal, but you pretty much have to elite any mech before you know what it actually runs like.

Nice to know how you feel about how all games are supposed to work and your thoughts about how mwomercs may not be as successful as other games are if it were to be a P2P variant. I don't feel the same though. I've been told that I have a masochistic way about doing things in games where, for example, instead of taking shortcuts like using a teleport scroll to get from one side of the world to the other, I would rather travel by foot to get where I need to go even if it means taking ten minutes. Doing things instantly gets boring quick for me. [SIDETRACK]Hell.. I've started using the oven more instead of the microwave 'cause the food just tastes better that way.[/sidetrack]

I apologize that the seemingly endless grind is bumming you out but it's keeping my interest rather well and I think the creators of mwomercs have done a great job of doing that. And to sum up my gruelling rant/comment on your post into one simple statement? I find myself thoroughly entertained by everything that is causing you grief over how mwomercs works.

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Eh. I honestly really wish MWO hadn't been a free to play game. I know it probably could not have been financially successful as buy to play title, but if it could of been there would be no need for the exciessive amount of grind that permeates the core experience. The game to me would be better if a couple days of play were enough to buy the most expensive mechs. Grinding to buy isn't why I play, it's tinkering with designes after i buy them and trying new things I like. this massive brick wall between me and experimention really bums me out.

[EDIT]I completely forgot to comment on the title itself, heh. Nope, I don't feel the base prices of the 'mechs available for C-bills are "silly." I believe they are reasonable considering how much the upgrades/downgrades cost. As for the cost in MC.. I don't know as I've only earned MC through the nice events that are given to us.[/edit]

Edited by RazorbeastFXK3, 23 March 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Water Bear]

MadBadger, on 23 March 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I think most of the mech prices are decent if they were in fact the full price.

Take the mech price, add in 1.5mill for DHS, @1mill for Endo and/or FF, more for weapon upgrades, then toss on 10 mill or more for modules, and yeah, now it is getting into the ridiculous zone.

If you played 2 hours a day, with premium on all the time, and did moderately well (say 150K C-bills per match average)... that is still roughly 100 matches at 10-ish minutes each or 15-16 hours of play time to purchase and outfit 1 mech. And you need 3 just to elite it... sorry but in general the game just doesn't offer enough to justify that. I mean it's a good game alright but it's not 'grind for 3 weeks to a month to buy your next chassisX3, then grind for a month to master those' kinda good.

(Yes you can save some by buying 1 set of gear, and swapping between mechs but that just makes the grind longer and even *more* annoying.)

Well you can factor out the 10 mil c-bills for buying modules for the 2 chassis you don't intend to keep (assuming you don't). And if you plan to run a standard engine then really your chassis taxes stop at abotu 2.5mil for IS mechs.

[Axeface]

Krysic, on 23 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I want PGI to be making millions a month so the game development can speed up....

Well that is one thing that recently has actually given me more of an incentive to spend, a reason for my insanity. Seeing what chris roberts is doing recently with a lot of money makes me dream about the battletech game we could have, possibly, if pgi had the money, ambition and leadership. I don't think they have the drive though, they seem very content with 'good enough'. While the initial premise for the gamewas pretty perfect.

Edited by Axeface, 23 March 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[LordMelvin]

Quxudica, on 23 March 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

-snip-

I agree with you mostly, but I am reminded of games like GW2 and The Secret World, which are both buy once but also rely on cash shops. Global Agenda was pay once as well, but ended up floundering and needed to go F2P (although HiRez is a garbage studio that makes a business of minimum viable products).

I'm not sure that making MWO pay once would solve any of the issues we have now. All it would do it strip out the people who play because it's free and probably further doom the game.


EDIT: Ah, you already addressed this. Serves me right for reading the whole thread before posting

Edited by LordMelvin, 23 March 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

You know what I meant, any mech that isn't Elite feels like a shadow of what it's supposed to. Speed tweak alone makes a huge difference in the feel of a mech. It's enough of a difference that it's required for anyone that isn't playing casually.

Actually they are the speed they are supposed to be. According to teh engine they carry.

[Krysic]

I just googled "Is MW:O coming to Steam?" and found a list of threads on other sites talking about the pay schedule for this game and saying the same things we all are. FROM 3 YEARS AGO. Yikes. Maybe the game will survive, maybe not. I'm not spending another penny until some serious changes are made and I can be sure I'm not throwing money down the *******.

[Felbombling]

Axeface, on 23 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

So you'de happily pay like 400 dollars for normal games then?

That way of thinking can not apply in f2p. You spend 50 dollars on a full retail game and get like 30-to-infinite hours of gameplay for that price. In MWO you already have that gameplay if you wish, the price of extras to make it more convienient (or just be better) arn't comparable.

The fact of the matter for ME is that the prices in this game are absolutely insane, it isn't about 'tossing pgi a few bucks', it's about tossing pgi a LOT of bucks - which I'de wager most people who make that important first purchase probably end up doing.

As for Cbill prices. I have always said that cbill earnings are too low (and CW is even worse). I play this game a lot, like... way too much. I have the luxury of time, I can't fathom how people that don't earn mechs.

Strangely, I know for a fact that if I earnt cbills faster I would spend more money, because I cant buy mechs without mech bays.

Well, first of all Axe, I'd be loving life if 'a few bucks' meant $400.00. As it is, I have invested in MW: O to a modest amount, but no more than I have tossed at War Thunder or World of Tanks.

Secondly, I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly that people want out of the F2P genre. I see MechWarrior: Online as a niche game with not much wiggle room for gaining a new audience. If you are suggesting that lowering the prices of Mechs by 90% is in some way the golden ticket to mass popularity, I think you are mistaken.

Exactly what kind of revenue stream do you envision PGI having with Assault Mechs going for something like $5.00, fully upgraded with little to no sense of accomplishment or advancement in systems like a low level tech grind or an imaginary in-game income grind?

Edited by StaggerCheck, 23 March 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Quxudica]

Quote

So basically, from my personal observation, you're all about the instant quick-fix features of games and programs where you don't have to break a sweat getting anything you have your sights set on so you don't have any worry or fear that your free time has been wasted. That's fine, I don't have a problem with that mindset but would be nice if you kept in mind that not everyone thinks like that.. There are players who would rather grind and work for what they want using up their free time while taking a break from reality instead of obtaining empty victories.

You might assume that from my post, but it's not the case. I played Final Fantasy XI for many years, an MMORPG which - if you aren't familiar - was about as far removed from instant gratification as possible. Simply leveling up required parties of six players and getting those groups could take hours. Even getting to the second leveling area from where i started required a 15 minute ferry ride that offered nothing to do and the possibility of being killed by random pirate attack events or sea monster spawns. Death resulted in loss of exp, possible loss of levels and the potential inability to equip your gear if you lost your level. It also sent you back to a spawn point that could be very far away if another player didn't happen along to resurrect you. If that wasn't enough, 90% of all the games gear was player made and the only way to make money reliably was to sell things to players - so you essentially had to work in the game.

My frustration with MWO's grind isn't because I want everything now in my games, it's because the thing I enjoy doing the most in MWO is experimenting with new mechs and new builds. I willingly spend more time in the mechlab and perusing build sites for ideas and digging into the nuts and bolts of the game than I do actually playing matches. I suppose, as an older gamer, I just find myself missing the days when you could buy a multiplayer game and have access to whatever you wanted to right away instead of having to deal with an arbitrary progression model.

I think it would help my frustration if their were just something more interesting to do with my mechs too. Right now it's either the same meaningless context-less matches in the same underwhelming game modes we've had for years, or it's CW which takes to long to be profitable and is pretty much only for premades.

In a perfect world for me, MWO would be a game out of the early 2000s. Pay once, have all the content with reasonable Cbill progression, have an online server browser and the ability for players to form their own lobbies using their own house rules if they wish and set a map rotation they choose for their rooms. I'd grind all day if I could make my own silly game rooms with rules like "Commandos only" or "small lasers only" or some such, or if at the very least the standard game modes of Assault and Conquest didn't feel so terribly unfinished. The objectives still feel like place holders.

[badaa]

there thinking over selling chassis only if that doesnt get u hard nothing will

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mech prices? for a single mech? rediculous? No

Grind, income, avg net pay, the fact we need to grind 3 of the exact same mech to master it? Absolutely stupid as ****...

Double avg pay to 200K and change it to where we only need 1 mech to master and it would be fine. Increase exp cost if need be, but 1 mech only ffs....

[Krysic]

I just realized that I spent like 4 hours on the forums reading posts with the game running. I hope they're not using time played as a marker for the game's popularity. I spend more time on the forums or in the mechlab than shooting in these overwrought, empty (nee: boring) game modes.

[Yellow Kat]

Yes they are overly bloated as they seems to think making the game feel like a long boring slog will make you open your wallet instead of what it really dose.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yellow Kat, on 23 March 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yes they are overly bloated as they seems to think making the game feel like a long boring slog will make you open your wallet instead of what it really dose.

Well, in that regard, its kinda what it did for me. I have pretty much MC'd every mech I have, then sold some I bought, used the cbills earned in battle to outfit the mechs.....as for actually grinding a mech? I have not done so yet. even my mastered Warhawks? I did that on the exp I got from my trial mechs clear back from CB......had like 40K racked up. spent that and then played a few games and converted more over....

BUt no, as a whole, the massive grind is not going to promote players to come...

[Pjwned]

Mechs cost too much and require far too much grinding, this is really old news.

The solution I present is to either remove the atrocious mech tree grinding or increase c-bill (and XP would be nice too) earnings by a lot; both would be ideal even but that sure as hell will not happen.

[Yellow Kat]

LordKnightFandragon, on 23 March 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Well, in that regard, its kinda what it did for me. I have pretty much MC'd every mech I have, then sold some I bought, used the cbills earned in battle to outfit the mechs.....as for actually grinding a mech? I have not done so yet. even my mastered Warhawks? I did that on the exp I got from my trial mechs clear back from CB......had like 40K racked up. spent that and then played a few games and converted more over....

BUt no, as a whole, the massive grind is not going to promote players to come...

Its been awhile but I did the math once for just seeing how many matches it would take to grind out the Orions Stock (just to buy them all not kit them out) and I think it came out to over 1200 matches, win or lose.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yellow Kat, on 23 March 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Its been awhile but I did the math once for just seeing how many matches it would take to grind out the Orions Stock (just to buy them all not kit them out) and I think it came out to over 1200 matches, win or lose.

Yeah, its assinine. It shouldnt take anymore then 200 games to master any one mech.....and have it geared out. Point should be playing the mechs and having fun. PGI clearly uses the grind as a cover up for their lack of fun gameplay.....not realizing that huge ass grinds just drive players away more....

[CtrlAltWheee]

I don't think it's good business.

Maybe the c-bill economy was right 2 years ago when there were fewer mechs, no modules. Today it's just sapping fun.

People want to buy mechs and pay real money for mechbays. We should be doing that. It's better for both parties.

[Kjudoon]

All items based on cbills should be dynamic changing at least once a month based on popularity (number of purchases - number sold) and modifiers based on faction alignment. MC only items could fluctuate less. It should be understood that mc prices flux with the market and a deal today is gone tomorrow.

Of course an auction house allowing players and units to buy and sell should be included though that could be very prone to abuse without safeguards similar to states taxing car purchases at the kelley blue book values, not paid price.

[Quxudica]

Kjudoon, on 24 March 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

All items based on cbills should be dynamic changing at least once a month based on popularity (number of purchases - number sold) and modifiers based on faction alignment. MC only items could fluctuate less. It should be understood that mc prices flux with the market and a deal today is gone tomorrow.

Of course an auction house allowing players and units to buy and sell should be included though that could be very prone to abuse without safeguards similar to states taxing car purchases at the kelley blue book values, not paid price.

player economies are massive, bloated unwieldy things that are difficult to execute well in the best of situations by the most experienced of companies - MWO trying to do it would just wind up being a mess.. and that's being optimistic.

MWO is not an MMO, it's a lobby shooter.. there's no real need to try shoe horning in mmo mechanics. Especially since it has enough trouble just trying to execute lobby shooter well.