112 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Greenjulius, on 23 March 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

IS LPLs aren't even close to being similar weapons to Clan LPLs however... Clan LPL has like 40% more range. A closer equivalent would be a much stronger IS ERLL.

That said, I prefer range at all times. You can get off more damage before the enemy even gets close.

I quite like terrain as a free counter to range, but maybe thats just me.... I prefer lower heat and greater precision personally. (admittedly you certainly feel the issue of low range when you start dropping below about 400 meters, but anything more than that is very situational). If range is such a big thing, why do we see loads of 7xMPL TDR-5SS when it can run 4x 911 meter ERLLs? Is it, maybe, because people feel that 350m range is enough, and they would rather have half the beam duration? hmmmmm?

Why is my favourite Timberwolf build 6xMPLs, when its range limited to 377m optimal? Why dont we constantly see 4xC-ERLL hellbringers, and instead see things like 6xERML or 6xMPL?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 March 2015 - 05:24 AM.

[InspectorG]

Greenjulius, on 23 March 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

IS LPLs aren't even close to being similar weapons to Clan LPLs however... Clan LPL has like 40% more range. A closer equivalent would be a much stronger IS ERLL.

That said, I prefer range at all times. You can get off more damage before the enemy even gets close.

Thats but one perspective.

Shorter burn times focus damage more and present the enemy with less face time to shoot back. Range is nice but you may not be able to dictate it and it is also dependent on playstyle.

I look for heat/duration quirks for my builds...unless im in a whale

[Repasy Cooper]

Meh, don't even need T-Comp for scary direct-fire builds. Ex:

DWF-BS

Don't let those BS damage indicators fool you, this big mug can dish out damage @ +30 dps. I rarely have all my guns jam at once, but by time they do, an entire enemy lance has gone to waste. You can practically hear them yelling, "BS!!!"

Alternate variation including T-Comp:

DWF-BS2

Edited by Repasy, 24 March 2015 - 09:50 AM.

[Triban]

Euklides, on 24 March 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

Now now, gentelment and/or ladies. You obviously have not unlocked the full potential of the TC in any of those builds, here I present to you the most dangerous of all mech builds EVER made.

TBR-PRIME

Mother of flame, hear my cry!

[Almond Brown]

Do TC's stack? That DWF BS2 has 2 different ones (III and V) and a CAP???

[Bobzilla]

I'll bet that 1 heatsink or ton of ammo, or 1 ton of weapon works out to more dmg than a TC1 will gain you.

So it's not worth it. Target info is nice, but you can get the mod or AP for missles.

[0bsidion]

Almond Brown, on 24 March 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Do TC's stack? That DWF BS2 has 2 different ones (III and V) and a CAP???

I believe they recently changed it so you can no longer add more than one TC. So kind of a moot point unless you already happen to have a mech set up like that in your mech bay.

[RedDevil]

Terrain > Range past 400m

Edited by reddevil, 24 March 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[Rhaythe]

Repasy, on 24 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Meh, don't even need T-Comp for scary direct-fire builds. Ex:

DWF-BS

That looks like pretty much every Dire Wolf I've seen on the battlefield for the past 3 months. What's special?

[Repasy Cooper]

Rhaythe, on 24 March 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

That looks like pretty much every Dire Wolf I've seen on the battlefield for the past 3 months. What's special?

Well.. nothing special about it really, other than the fact that it can core an entire enemy lance in under a minute. I was just trying to give merit to the argument that the Clans don't need the heavy perking that the IS has received.

A lot of clanners have been upset to the point of insult over the last quirk pass, but I honestly don't understand why. We got some GREAT quirks for some underused (but HONESTLY, not underpowered) clan mechs, and the majority of other clan mechs didn't need ANY quirking whatsoever, but PGI was nice enough to throw us a couple 2-4% tweaks here and there to test the waters. That's totally reasonable imo.

Frankly, as a clanner I would have been PISSED if PGI gave us the same quirk treatment as IS mechs. That's not how you balance a scale.

I think part of the reason for all this angst amongst the clanners is that some of them have yet to grasp Clan tactics. They expect every chassis to be good for the same thing: raking up kills. That's totally wrong. Some mechs are good for softening up multiple enemies, some have light weapons loadouts but excel at finishing off cripples fast, etc. etc. Bottom line, not every mech needs the weapons quirks.

[jlawsl]

I use the TCs most of the time when I play my clan mechs. You have to remember that clan weapons weigh less and take up less slots then IS weapons, when balanced ton for ton, space for space, the "added" tonnage isn't bad. I have noticed that a lot of clan players perceive it a right to all of the bonuses of having a clan mech, but don't want to take the negatives into account while building a mech. If it doesn't spout out death for a million points of damage and have perfect hitboxes, its worthless in a lot of clan player's eyes.

I tried an experiment a while back, and put a mk7 targeting computer on my warhawk and just 4 cerlls. It really was nasty. It had great range, zoom to match and decent heat efficiency. In all, it takes 11 crits, 1 for each laser and 7 for the computer and a total of 23 tons.

Then, I got the closest IS mech that I owned to it, an awsome and put on the same load out except with a command console. 9 crits, 8 for lasers, 1 for a command console. But the same, 23 tons.

If you play with an AWS-9m, it gets very good general energy quirks for an assault mech. 12.5% range, 12.5% heat, 15% duration, 15% cooldown. You can put in a command console, 4 erLL, a 350xl and the rest on filling it with heatsinks.

The difference?
Heat efficiency- AWS 1.36> Warhawk 1.33
Damage-Warhawk 44>AWS 36
Heat generated-AWS 28>Warhawk 40
Range-Warhawk 880m optimal> AWS 827m(modules on both added)
Duration-AWS 1.06s>Warhawk 1.5
Cooldown-AWS 2.37s>Warhawk 2.89s(modules added)

So, compare to one of the best energy quirked assault chassis in the game to a pretty much unquirked clan mech with the same load out. The only real glaring differences are in heat generation(efficiency is very close because of clan DHS), damage and duration. So, in overall terms, at about the same range, the two are going to fire their weapons at close to the same efficiency, the AWS with a shorter burn time and slightly shorter cooldown, but 8 less damage.

I think its pretty even, even without a quirked Warhawk. It was really bad before they nerfed the CerLL, the range was crazy and heat was not even an issue.

edit-I Haven't even elited the Warhawk yet, so the heat efficiency isn't where it should be for an equal comparison. Guess I should play the third chassis rather then just focus on two of them.

Edited by jlawsl, 24 March 2015 - 05:00 PM.

[WarZ]

Triban, on 23 March 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

incredible speeds for their XL engines when discussing balance.

Their engines are NOT faster than IS engines. They go the same speeds per chasis. You act like this is a buff. It is not.

Clan mechs are faster and more agile (for most, not all) than IS counterparts because ... wait for it ... THEY ARE FORCED TO TAKE THAT MASSIVE ENGINE. FORCED TO. Which means they do not have enough pod space to boat anything EXCEPT lasers !!! That are FRICKIN HOT. Which means they are forced to boat loads of DHS, to have viable laser based builds. That have LONG LONG burn times and spread damage like silly.

Oh did I mention that some of those LOCKED engines are nerfed already ??? Stormcrow 330xl, thats supposed to have 3 DHS slots built in (like an IS 325 engine right ?) - BUT it gets ZERO built in heatsinks. ZERO. For a 330xl engine. WTF. I NEVER see IS whiners mention this tidbit ! Oh no.

There is a HUGE trade off. If I could boat effective Dakka (minus the Dire, which I dont own) on my clan mechs, vs all the laser vomit I'm forced to use, I WOULD DROP THAT BIG ENGINE IN A HEARTBEAT. And happily go slower and be less agile in order to boat weapons that are far more effective in this game.

Stop acting like their speed and agility is a free awesome bonus buff that IS doesnt have access too. Realize its a BIG FAST NERF.


Edit: The losing a ST bonus, I give you that. But clans are already paying for that benefit in many other ways. I'd be happy to see IS XL engines changed so that they can lose 1 ST as well. If they devs really need to they could sell an upgraded version of the standard IS XL for 50% more to validate it.

Edited by WarZ, 24 March 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Triban, on 23 March 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

I believe the whine from the clans getting marginal bonuses is because they are forgetting a key piece of equipment that all clans have access to, and the IS can only dream of. The targeting computer.

This badass piece of equipment gives you increased range, crit chance, velocity, zoom, and target info, for cheap. The inner sphere get the command console, which continues to be a joke comparatively speaking. When considering quirks, ALWAYS consider your considerably lower weapon weight and the considerably superior Targeting Computer (not to mention your uber XLS).

Discuss.


Targeting Computer Mk. I
Weight: 1 ton.
Slots: 1 slot.

• +4.5 zoom
  
• + 2.25 sensor range
  
• + 2.25 beam weapon buffs
  
• + 4.5 projectile buff
  
• + 7.25 critical chances
  
• + 22.5 Info gathering

Command Console



Now let’s take a look at the Inner Sphere Command Console, which will be sharing functionality similar to the Targeting Computers.

NOTE: Once again, all values are placeholders.

Command Console
Weight: 3 tons.
Slots: 1 slot.
Zoom distance: [+5.25]%
Sensor range: [+6.0]%
Time to gather target info: [-20.5]%

I believe you fallacy only applies to your circular logic.

For instance, the two tons for a TC in a Stock Adder Prime will not help the fact that PGI screwed DHS's making its Dual ERPPC configuration hotter than originally intended. Clan mechs also can't add/remove FF/ES/XL upgrades and can't change their engines because you know... magic, lore, balance, whatever.

I believe that if IS mechs were also incapable of replacing their engines with faster/slower ones, only XL of the same model, then you'd have a more balanced IS force with less focus on speed and more focus on firepower and tactics. In essence, it would force bad pilots to play as well as the majority of Clan pilots... and tonnage and room for those CC's.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 24 March 2015 - 06:33 PM.