112 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

reddevil, on 23 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

The subject is quirks. Why bring up mechs that don't need and won't get them?

Well, hopefully won't get them.

Do remember that the currently paywalled Mad Cat D variant has -5% energy heat on its left arm...

Edited by FupDup, 23 March 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

If IS CC gave TC-1 stats for triple its weight, or something along those lines, it wouldn't be joke equipment anymore and I would be willing to bet that players would start using it despite its cost.

I know the TT CC doesn't offer anything near that, but we don't have a TT C3 network either.

For gameplay sake, why the hell not.

[Navid A1]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 23 March 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Clanners complaining while piloting Timberwolves, Stormcrows, or Direwolves make me laugh.
It doesnt get any more pathetic

Are you sure the complaining clanners are complaining about Timbers, crows or dires?
Because they don't.

They complain about adderd, summoners, novas, gargles, ferrets and lynxes... nearly half of the entire clan mechs ingame. how do you feel about those?

[Triban]

Zoid, on 23 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

I think we badly need another round of IS vs Clan in the public/solo queue for a few days to get some more data. This is no longer an argument, it's just contradiction.

I know the first time they did it it was 90/10 and the second it was a little better but still some like 80/20 or 70/30. I'd expect it to be about 55/45 or 60/40 to be balanced, since clan 'mechs do cost more and are more likely to be driven by more experienced pilots.

After taxes, IS mechs actually cost more than the clans!

[Deathlike]

shad0w4life, on 23 March 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

Isn't it already a %50 crit rate on cored components though, I used to think that extra % made a massive difference but really it's just a slight increase to blow up a component that already has a high chance.

It's like 40+%.

It's not a massive difference honestly, but it accelerates the death of any mech that lost its external armor... particularly when using laservomit.

Remember damage by crits use the full damage value (instead of the damage value based on the range it was fired from), and that is also automatically converted into actual damage to the internal structure.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 March 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Red1769]

Zoid, on 23 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

I think we badly need another round of IS vs Clan in the public/solo queue for a few days to get some more data. This is no longer an argument, it's just contradiction.

I know the first time they did it it was 90/10 and the second it was a little better but still some like 80/20 or 70/30. I'd expect it to be about 55/45 or 60/40 to be balanced, since clan 'mechs do cost more and are more likely to be driven by more experienced pilots.

Just to clarify on this one point, the last official word was 64% in Favor of the Clans, with an average Elo difference of 100 points...in favor of the Clans. The numbers add up exactly if memory serves from threads talking about this. Still...debatable if that's a large enough difference to actually make a difference. I would love a new test, and if Clans still have an advantage, I also expect something like 55/45. And they disclose everything about it...mechs used and how many people used them, weapons used and how many people used them, damage (what weapons did what amounts of damage), kills, Elo difference, weight difference, what they think is overperforming and why, what they think is underperforming and why, etc.

Normally, I would hope they have the data to make the call...but considering their track record in nerfing/buffing stuff that either didn't need to be nerfed or was the wrong kind of nerf/buff, I can't help but question it slightly.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Deathlike, on 23 March 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

It's like 40+%.

It's not a massive difference honestly, but it accelerates the death of any mech that lost its external armor... particularly when using laservomit.

Remember damage by crits use the full damage value (instead of the damage value based on the range it was fired from), and that is also automatically converted into actual damage to the internal structure.

Hmm Is that posted anywhere? I thought that it was the portion of the damage received which range would affect.

I also thought they said that crits only cause excess damage to the component and do not transfer damage in to the internal structure(unless it's an explosion) So if you Shoot a cored ST it will do 5 dmg to the ST and that 5 dmg could possibly do 15 to a LL etc but it will only be 5 DMG to the internal structure.

[Rhaythe]

Gyrok, on 23 March 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

The 911m ERLL BLR just called and said that this version of crazy is an after thought, since it has already arrived...

'superior clan weapon range'...lol...that is not even a thing anymore...

Okay. That's one laser on one mech. Compared to a Clan weapon system that can be mounted on any clan chassis. Hardly apples and apples. Clan lasers have the range advantage. You can't dispute that. But it's okay that they do, since range is hardly the only factor here.

Pointing to one IS mech and saying, "it's balanced because of one mech" is like IS pointing to the Timberwolf and saying clans are OP because of that alone.

[Deathlike]

shad0w4life, on 23 March 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Hmm Is that posted anywhere? I thought that it was the portion of the damage received which range would affect.

It's not, but this is MWO... where information is Lostech.

To my knowledge, this is the case from people doing empirical testing.

If say you had a PPC firing from near max range... hitting the target and dealing enough damage to remove the target's external armor, THERE IS A CHANCE that in that section can still lose that piece of equipment (whether it be DHS, a weapon... anything that has 10 health) because that crit damage is treated IN FULL. Remember PPCs do 10 damage (just the perfect value to destroy components in a mech).

Quote

I also thought they said that crits only cause excess damage to the component and do not transfer damage in to the internal structure(unless it's an explosion) So if you Shoot a cored ST it will do 5 dmg to the ST and that 5 dmg could possibly do 15 to a LL etc but it will only be 5 DMG to the internal structure.

Did you not understand the "MG crit conversion" damage from the change a while back? All crit damage dealt is dealt in the form of actual internal damage, by 15%. So, a 10 damage PPC can do an ADDITIONAL 1.5 damage (to internals) due to this behavior. This change was supposed to help out the MG, but it has translated into other weapons as a consequence, lowering TTK a little bit.

I suggest you read up on the patch notes on the day MG crit damage was made available.

What you're talking about is damage transfer locations.... where only 40% of the originating damage is transferred to the next section. For instance, if you shot the side torso on an Atlas that has lost all of its armor+internals, your shots deals only 40% to the CT, instead of 100% damage to the CT.

Yes, these are devils in the details... of course noone really thinks about these things too much and argue about stuff they don't really research/ask about.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 March 2015 - 02:57 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

shad0w4life, on 23 March 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

JJs are not a huge advantage on any map in a MLX

LOL. Wow dude. This reply informs me your skill level must be on the low side if you dont even know the advantages of jj's on light mechs. The Myst Lynx may be underwhelming to some people, but for a 25 ton clan light I can easily do 400-800 dmg multiple kill matches in pug drops.

And guess why? The jump jets. I can get angles on any mech, on any part of the map, at any time, due to the jj's. If I had no jump jets or even 1 or 2 thrown on I would not be able to score that high on a regular basis, the jj's always help me get angles for my 4 er meds.

L2P.

Edited by Alwrath, 23 March 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

aniviron, on 23 March 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

It actually gets the exact same amount of thrust and height per JJ as any other light mech. Like the others have said, try not to make factually incorrect statements, it doesn't make you look smarter. Posting in a larger font also doesn't make you look smarter, this isn't ancient Sparta where arguments were decided by who could yell the loudest.

I was comparing the jj's to every mech in the game, not just light mechs. I am so sorry my slightly larger font bothers you so much. You alright man? You need a soda or somethin?

[Mcgral18]

Alwrath, on 23 March 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

LOL. Wow dude. This reply informs me your skill level must be on the low side if you dont even know the advantages of jj's on light mechs. The Myst Lynx may be underwhelming to some people, but for a 25 ton clan light I can easily do 400-800 dmg multiple kill matches in pug drops.

And guess why? The jump jets. I can get angles on any mech, on any part of the map, at any time, due to the jj's. If I had no jump jets or even 1 or 2 thrown on I would not be able to score that high on a regular basis, the jj's always help me get angles for my 4 er meds.

L2P.

I'd prefer 4 JJs and a 250XL; which means 10 TrueDubs. That means it can be as heat efficient as a 12 current DHS build, with only 10 DHS.

Hurray. Fewer JJs also mean less JJ heat. 4 is plenty for most occasions. Running 178Kph would be a gigantic buff.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Mcgral18, on 23 March 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'd prefer 4 JJs and a 250XL; which means 10 TrueDubs. That means it can be as heat efficient as a 12 current DHS build, with only 10 DHS.

Hurray. Fewer JJs also mean less JJ heat. 4 is plenty for most occasions. Running 178Kph would be a gigantic buff.

I wouldent mind a higher engine either, but prefer as many jj's as I can get. More chances of angles on my targets, and easier to escape threats that come after me.

Also, the Myst Linx gets 10% energy efficiency quirk, so its already better during a match than the amount of DHS the chassis implies on the 4 er med build.

Edited by Alwrath, 23 March 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[MechaBattler]

There is a complaint to be made for the state of our so called Command Console. But targeting computer does not equal quirks. They're separate. Apples and napalm.

Edited by MechaBattler, 23 March 2015 - 04:09 PM.

[Hillslam]

Lets remember that 64% clan wins vs 36% IS wins means clans were winning roughly double the matches IS were.

Roughly 2 to 1.

I think people think 64/36 is a small margin because we're used to thinking in terms of difference from 50% up or down. If I'm 14% above 50% that doesnt feel huge. But you're leaving out that 14% came from the opposite side.

I don't think its this high anymore. Certainly the ELO gap isn't 100 anymore (and Russ mentioned the ELO gap of 100 before wasn't that big nor could explain the results gap). Because clam mechs for sale for Cbills along with the packages means by now pretty much everyone but new NEW players have a clan mech or two in their stable. I for example have them all, and all mastered. And I can't stand clans from a fluff or fan standpoint. But I drive em to know what's what for myself.

I too would like to see the latest numbers. Because I wouldn't even take my own experience as representative of the overall status: I do 50% more damage in my Mist Lynx than in either my Jenners or Panthers. The clam vs IS gap isn't anywhere near 50% its lower. Mostly because most clam pilots can't hold a beam on target heh

Edited by Hillslam, 23 March 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[Burktross]

Reasonably so.
Quirks don't cost tonnage, you silly banana.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Sorry OP, TCs != quirks. I'm sure many have already mentioned that already, so I'll just say that most clan mechs need some living too.

[Greenjulius]

Targeting computers are a red herring. Remember, they could choose to put in more DHS instead of a TC, making their heat cap and heat dissipation rise. The effects are minimal since TCs were nerfed, as I indicated in my post on the 1st page.

At best, they are a tradeoff. A handful of small buffs for less potential cooling, armor or weapons.

The real problems are things like clan weapon weight, Clan XLs, superior clan weapons and broken Crow/Timby hitboxes. I'd like to see those issues resolved instead of something as small as TCs.

Edited by Greenjulius, 23 March 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Gyrok]

Hillslam, on 23 March 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Lets remember that 64% clan wins vs 36% IS wins means clans were winning roughly double the matches IS were.

Roughly 2 to 1.

I think people think 64/36 is a small margin because we're used to thinking in terms of difference from 50% up or down. If I'm 14% above 50% that doesnt feel huge. But you're leaving out that 14% came from the opposite side.

I don't think its this high anymore. Certainly the ELO gap isn't 100 anymore (and Russ mentioned the ELO gap of 100 before wasn't that big nor could explain the results gap). Because clam mechs for sale for Cbills along with the packages means by now pretty much everyone but new NEW players have a clan mech or two in their stable. I for example have them all, and all mastered. And I can't stand clans from a fluff or fan standpoint. But I drive em to know what's what for myself.

I too would like to see the latest numbers. Because I wouldn't even take my own experience as representative of the overall status: I do 50% more damage in my Mist Lynx than in either my Jenners or Panthers. The clam vs IS gap isn't anywhere near 50% its lower. Mostly because most clam pilots can't hold a beam on target heh

The elo delta was as high as 250 mind you.

Also, the issue with you perceiving it as a ou do is that a match is binary. It is either win or loss. Which means all matches you won, you did not lose. Period.

So, yes, it should be viewed as 10-15% over 50% not that they won twice as many...even though clans did not. It would have had to be significantly more unbalanced for that.

Not to mention the suicide cowards, and the screw offs running out of bounds or disconnecting at star of match. How much do you legitimately think that contributed? If we assume half of all drops started with the IS side down minimum one mech, how bad does it suddenly look? Not bad at all considering 11vs12.

You can put up whatever you want, but reality lies in the fact that more testing is needed, and more results to refine where things are now.

Greenjulius, on 23 March 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Targeting computers are a red herring. Remember, they could choose to put in more DHS instead of a TC, making their heat cap and heat dissipation rise. The effects are minimal since TCs were nerfed, as I indicated in my post on the 1st page.

At best, they are a tradeoff. A handful of small buffs for less potential cooling, armor or weapons.

The real problems are things like clan weapon weight, Clan XLs, superior clan weapons and broken Crow/Timby hitboxes. I'd like to see those issues resolved instead of something as small as TCs.

"Superior clan weapons"

LOL...please elaborate, what clan weapons are superior compared to a quirked IS counterpart...just curious....

Edited by Gyrok, 23 March 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Navid A1]

Alwrath, on 23 March 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Mcgral18, on 23 March 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'd prefer 4 JJs and a 250XL; which means 10 TrueDubs. That means it can be as heat efficient as a 12 current DHS build, with only 10 DHS.

Hurray. Fewer JJs also mean less JJ heat. 4 is plenty for most occasions. Running 178Kph would be a gigantic buff.

I wouldent mind a higher engine either, but prefer as many jj's as I can get. More chances of angles on my targets, and easier to escape threats that come after me.

Also, the Myst Linx gets 10% energy efficiency quirk, so its already better during a match than the amount of DHS the chassis implies on the 4 er med build.

Having 10 truedubs can help with the lynx considerably. But it probably wont happen due to construction rules.

However, 6JJs can still give this little guy an edge in combat. slap 4ERML+3DHS and go wreck faces with it, they wont even see you. 500+ damage 2+ kills games would become easy... as soon as you master the art of using JJs to minimize exposure on this thing.

This mech is not something you can go face to face with anything. its main advantage is being small and being ignored... JJs help with being ignored part. (that -10% energy heat also help)

but still, i think this mech needs 2 quirks: 1- speed and 2- energy heat gen

Edited by Navid A1, 23 March 2015 - 04:46 PM.