86 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 24 March 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

Why don't we choose one value for everything? Its simpler and its fair: 1.7 for everything

(yes its a nerf for the poor dubs, and the 10 DHS is enough for 2 ERPPC freaks - but its better for those that really burn tonnage to get more heatsinks. NERF<20 DHS < BUFF

Yes the story of the Jenner - not that even 2.0 DHS would have allowed him to be heat neutral

Why not dubs be twice as strong as singles. Cause you know thats how its supposed to work.

[InRev]

Metus regem, on 24 March 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Every Warhawk Prime I have every used, that fired all four cERPPC's, always cooked off that LRM ammo....

It makes you wonder if that stupid LRM launcher was added specifically for that reason, to act as a sort of deterrent haha.

[Karl Streiger]

Metus regem, on 24 March 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Sadly, that is very likely the only thing they are going to do...

It bothers me, as I can see the potential of MWO, and I see them almost squandering it, they made a good move by adding CW, but there needs to be some weight to decisions we make in game, like a reason not to use the biggest engine, a reason to use standard internals and armour, a reason to use single heat sinks...

I'd also like to see different versions of the PPC, like Donnals that may fire a little slower or travel a little slower, but hit harder or Lord's Light, that may do reduced damage, but fire faster, further and travel faster.



Every Warhawk Prime I have every used, that fired all four cERPPC's, always cooked off that LRM ammo....

Different manufactures could be mirrored by Quirks - but you have to bind that quirk fast to the weapon
For example that ERPPC in the arm of that TDR 9S got a superior cooling jacket and targeting system - but you pay with reduced cool down - maybe its not possible to restrict it for a single weapon but as soon as you dismount the ERppc there you loose the quirks - you may stack 2 or more ERPPcs but one has to stay in the arm

Joseph Mallan, on 24 March 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Why not dubs be twice as strong as singles. Cause you know thats how its supposed to work.

Well i would like to say because they would be to good in comparison with the SHS - but the DHS change is a no brainer
But for double dissipation they shouldn't double the capacity turning them into quadruple heatsinks

[Metus regem]

InRev, on 24 March 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

It makes you wonder if that stupid LRM launcher was added specifically for that reason, to act as a sort of deterrent haha.

I think so... so now I just wait till I've used all of that ammo, before I fire them in quad mode....

[Ultimax]

I've pestered Russ on this a few times on twitter with no answer, PMs with no answer and have submitted it repeatedly to the Town Hall list of questions (not selected).


I'm not convinced he has fully noticed this issue to see what the problem is, but I'm not really sure at this point how to clarify.


We don't even know if there is a technical limitation to fixing it for us to come up with real suggestions.



This should be fixed, it doesn't make sense to work like this.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 March 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Some may argue, the heat skill is buffing 1.4's up to this value.
Yet they forget that any 2.0 is upgraded to way more than a true dub.
This is when imbalance strikes, because a mech with 10 engine internals vs a mech with 8 internals and 1.4s (12DHS total) just used a lot tonnage for what gain? Yeah not fair at this point, not fair. That is very likely what is screwing a lot balance in the lower rengine range category.

Needs to be changed tbh.

i woudl prefer true dubs and30 fixed heattreshold.

Firelizard, on 24 March 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

As much as I'd love to see a 30 heat cap, it would need to be a soft cap with increasing debilitating effects when going above it.

Otherwise mechs like the Nova Prime and Warhawk Prime are left with weapons they can never use, where in canon they could be used, but you had to roll the dice on the extra heat ruining your day.

WRONG, with true Dubs you cna still use the weapons, and there are other reasons why a second amount of weapons is suefull:

if your torso/arm blows off as easily as on a nova, having backup weapons is important.
If you cornerpop on the right, vs cornerpop on the left, havign full firepower available is also a good thing indtead of having half, or having to expose 45% more mech.

also true dubs would make them suabale as in canon. canon lasts 10 seconds per turn. true dubs and 30 heattreshold menas within 10 seconds a Stock Nova Has 14DHS generating 2 heat being cooled down + 30 heat treshold. this means stock it could fire nearly allof them. With the current heat values this would not be possible, but wait, hold on. We still have the pilot perks, giving us further heat dissipation and suddenly, those 12 CERML cvan be fied within those 10 seconds. You just cna not fire them at ONCE withitn these 10 seconds. but you can fire them.
And in canon you could not fire them all every round without overheating.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 24 March 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well i would like to say because they would be to good in comparison with the SHS - but the DHS change is a no brainer
But for double dissipation they shouldn't double the capacity turning them into quadruple heatsinks

That sounds a bit to much to me. But thats only my opinion.

[stjobe]

Let's look at my Commando just as an example.

It has an XL195 engine, which means it has 7 truedubs and 3 fauxdubs.
Its heat capacity is (7*2 + 3*1.4 = 18.2) instead of 20.

Would giving that 'mech 1.8 additional heat capacity and 0.18 more dissipation make it OP? Would it break the game? Would it spell doom for all the assault 'mechs out there?

No Paul, it wouldn't.

The first ten DHS should be truedubs, period.

At this point in the game there's zero point in punishing sub-250 engined 'mechs with fauxdubs for the first ten heat sinks. It's just petty and spiteful.

And yes, I understand why they made it so, since it's slightly harder to code "floating" heat sinks - and PGI has never been that interested in "slightly harder". They prefer "Minimally Viable Product".

[Joseph Mallan]

A Mech MUST have 10 Sinks. Those sinks MUST be 2x sinks! No matter the engine size.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Brother, let's be honest, that is not going to happen. Anymore than fixing convergence, etc will. Beating that drum.....it just...it just gets us all more frustrated.

Lets look at things that we realistically MIGHT be able to achieve with PGI?

May be able to convince PGI to give a blanket 10% heat/heat rate buff to all lights and select others?

Least amount of work involved.

[FupDup]

The issue is that MWO doesn't care if your sinks are part of the base 10, it just cares if they're outside or inside the engine. If they're inside, 2.0, if they're outside, 1.4. There is no third type for "2.0 external" right now and I dunno how much work it would take to create them and prevent people from using them in place of non-base-10 dubs.

A rather easy solution would be to just ghost all 10 base dubs straight into the engine and increase engine weight to represent this (same net weight in the end), but they really don't want to do that for some reason...

[One Medic Army]

New suggestion:

With SHS: base 10 (or however many) in-engine heatsinks are worth 2.0 and 0.2
With DHS: first 10 are worth 2.0 and 0.2

Any further heatsinks function based on their type.

Now stock mechs aren't completely worthless, sub-250 mechs aren't shafted, and DHS is no longer a mandatory 1.5mil tax on every mech you ever buy.

[dimachaerus]

I support this fully.

Crank the heatcap down, give us truedubs, give us heat related ammo explosions/speed loss/hud malfunctions... watch the game suddenly become MUCH more diverse.

Watch the so often mentioned "unholy trinity" be pulled back in line due to their reliance on laser vomit.

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 24 March 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

A rather easy solution would be to just ghost all 10 base dubs straight into the engine and increase engine weight to represent this (same net weight in the end), but they really don't want to do that for some reason...

External sinks do take up space and can be crit'ed, so they can't be *completely* ignored by ghosting them. Though at this point, the boon to the game mechanic may be enough to give this theory a pass.

[Reitrix]

FS9-K literally is the fabled 3 second Jenner.
8 SPLs is 32 damage, 2 second cooldown, spend 3 seconds behind an Atlas that isn't running max frontal armor and you burn off his CT in exactly 3 seconds.
64 damage in 2 blasts of 8 SPLs, Atlas only has 62 Internals, if you're running less than 120 Armor on the front, it requires 5 seconds.

Oh and they can also mount an XL 295 for 10 TruDubs.

But Jeebus forbid the Jenner doing that.

Edited by Reitrix, 24 March 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[FupDup]

Rhaythe, on 24 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

External sinks do take up space and can be crit'ed, so they can't be *completely* ignored by ghosting them. Though at this point, the boon to the game mechanic may be enough to give this theory a pass.

What I meant was actually editing the engine XML files so that every engine has all 10 inside by default. This is a very easy number switch.

Here's a current STD200 for example:

<Module id="3238" name="Engine_Std_200" CType="CEngineStats" faction="InnerSphere">
    <Loc nameTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_200" descTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_200_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\StdEngine.dds" />
    <EngineStats slots="6" sideSlots="0" sidesToDie="0" rating="200" weight="11.5" heatsinks="8" health="15" />
  </Module>

Notice the 8 heatsinks line.

Here's what I would change it to:

<Module id="3238" name="Engine_Std_200" CType="CEngineStats" faction="InnerSphere">
    <Loc nameTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_200" descTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_200_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\StdEngine.dds" />
    <EngineStats slots="6" sideSlots="0" sidesToDie="0" rating="200" weight="13.5" heatsinks="10" health="15" />
  </Module>

It now comes with 10 heatsinks, and its weight was increased by 2 tons to represent the two additional sinks inside of it.


The only sorta hard thing would be to edit Clan light Omnis to remove their external sinks because they'd no longer be needed (all 10 would be inside).

[LordMelvin]

Roadbuster, on 24 March 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

That's what I'd like to see too. But keep the ghost heat.
DHS for sustained DPS with lower heat capacity.
And improved SHS heat capacity to make them preferable for big heat spikes but slow cooldown.



That works till someone equips 2-3 Gauss...

Gauss is a poor excuse for not changing heat scale mechanics since heat doesn't apply to gauss.

And as foolish as it might be I will always cling to my pipedream of lowered heat cap and increased dissipation rates for a focus on sustained damage over spike damage.

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 24 March 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

The only sorta hard thing would be to edit Clan light Omnis to remove their external sinks because they'd no longer be needed (all 10 would be inside).

I get you. I'm just mentioning that there is an actual game mechanic that would be overwritten by doing so. It's possible to run on 7 or 8 heat sinks if they get critted mid-match (as anyone running a Locust can testify).

Though like I said, the benefit of your idea might be worth just forgetting about that mechanic.

[FupDup]

Rhaythe, on 24 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

I get you. I'm just mentioning that there is an actual game mechanic that would be overwritten by doing so. It's possible to run on 7 or 8 heat sinks if they get critted mid-match (as anyone running a Locust can testify).

Though like I said, the benefit of your idea might be worth just forgetting about that mechanic.

If the sinks are built into the engine, they can't really get crit anymore, so I don't see the issue. It would work the same way that all 250+ engines already do.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 March 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Why not dubs be twice as strong as singles. Cause you know thats how its supposed to work.

Cause then we wouldn't have cool nicknames for the like TrueDubs and FauxDubs.