214 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

No crap. And I never said it ain't important.

But at short range, the actual accuracy boost is minimal, it's mid to long range you see it more heavily affecting your shot. If you couldn't hit a mech at 250-400 meters with a 650 m/s ac20, I'm willing to bet you were also missing it a lot with a 950 m/s ac10. It helps, but at "normal" engagement ranges for the mech? it helps what 3-5%, maybe?

Vs shaving an entire second off of cooldown? I'm sorry but someone is overselling a feature and underselling another, when the numbers are put into use, and it ain't me.

It's more important than you're giving credit for honestly. It's more like a 10-25% difference given the numbers. For increased velocity, the adjustment required to fire the AC20 to hit your target is a bit less, and that becomes more of a twitch-like/reaction factor.

For cooldown, I had already suggested a 5% reduction for both the generic cooldown and the Gauss specific cooldown. I've already said it many posts ago, but that was ignored. I'm still not feeling this magical difference outside of the 4G not being a pro-CW mech at this point in time compared to the GI.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 March 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Kensaisama]

So uh..... what prompted this thread to begin with? The GI has been quirked like this the past what? 3 months? Seems a bit rediculous to complain about it now don't ya think?

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

It's more important than you're giving credit for honestly. It's more like a 10-25% difference given the numbers.

For cooldown, I had already suggested a 5% reduction for both the generic cooldown and the Gauss specific cooldown. I've already said it many posts ago, but that was ignored. I'm still not feeling this magical difference outside of the 4G not being a pro-CW mech at this point in time.

4G will never be a CW meta choice because it's too fragile/slow/short range. Nothing to do with trying to buff the 4G or make it more CW worthy. Either it fits you and your drop deck, or it doesn't.

This post is entirely about 1 thing, the GI being out of line with the other HBKs. Velocity is useful, but it's not game breaking on the 4G. It's the type of boost we SHOULD see out of quirks, where it helps, and situationally, is important, but it's not meta making on it's own.

Anytime you start see a 50% change to ANYTHING? As noted earlier, it means either you are making meta policy with it (TDR-9S, DRG-1N, Huggin) or you are trying to patch up a severely broken baseline. Since the other HBKs are generally not so buffed to such an extreme, I would say the baseline is not near broke enough to justify it.

As for the velocity? It's such that only "serious" HBK operators will even really notice or maximize it. Burtktross, Michael Abt and myself can use it rather effectively, if situationally. The masses? Not so much.

As I stated before, extreme percentage quirks create further balance issues, whereas varied lesser quirks (HBK-4G) wok as they should to generally improve amech without causing balance see-saws.

Kensaisama, on 26 March 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

So uh..... what prompted this thread to begin with? The GI has been quirked like this the past what? 3 months? Seems a bit rediculous to complain about it now don't ya think?

yes. Best to keep head in sand. Carry on.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Kensaisama]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

4G will never be a CW meta choice because it's too fragile/slow/short range. Nothing to do with trying to buff the 4G or make it more CW worthy. Either it fits you and your drop deck, or it doesn't.

This post is entirely about 1 thing, the GI being out of line with the other HBKs. Velocity is useful, but it's not game breaking on the 4G. It's the type of boost we SHOULD see out of quirks, where it helps, and situationally, is important, but it's not meta making on it's own.

Anytime you start see a 50% change to ANYTHING? As noted earlier, it means either you are making meta policy with it (TDR-9S, DRG-1N, Huggin) or you are trying to patch up a severely broken baseline. Since the other HBKs are generally not so buffed to such an extreme, I would say the baseline is not near broke enough to justify it.

As I stated before, extreme percentage quirks create further balance issues, whereas varied lesser quirks (HBK-4G) wok as they should to generally improve amech without causing balance see-saws.


yes. Best to keep head in sand. Carry on.

Easy sport, no need to be snide

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

4G will never be a CW meta choice because it's too fragile/slow/short range. Nothing to do with trying to buff the 4G or make it more CW worthy. Either it fits you and your drop deck, or it doesn't.

This post is entirely about 1 thing, the GI being out of line with the other HBKs. Velocity is useful, but it's not game breaking on the 4G. It's the type of boost we SHOULD see out of quirks, where it helps, and situationally, is important, but it's not meta making on it's own.

But... I don't remember the GI being the meta post-quirks. That's the thing. That is probably the fundamental disagreement that we have.

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Anytime you start see a 50% change to ANYTHING? As noted earlier, it means either you are making meta policy with it (TDR-9S, DRG-1N, Huggin) or you are trying to patch up a severely broken baseline. Since the other HBKs are generally not so buffed to such an extreme, I would say the baseline is not near broke enough to justify it.

I don't make meta-policy. If I did, I'd just fire the man who invented Ghost Heat outright first.

For the 9S, it made literally no sense to have 50% heat gen reduction on it for ERPPCs... anyone with a brain could see that coming.

The Dragon in general is an often mocked mech due to fragility. For the 1N specifically, its glass cannon arm is localized, and usually side coring the right torso is a bonus. So, it's a fair give and take relationship for the most part.

The Huginn completely relies on the missile weapons to poke holes in... and given the state of MGs... foregoing them is a viable option so the quirks in this instance is more or less acceptable.

Mind you, I don't believe in using the latter two mechs, but as a support mech for CW, they are very useful for what they are.

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As for the velocity? It's such that only "serious" HBK operators will even really notice or maximize it. Burtktross, Michael Abt and myself can use it rather effectively, if situationally. The masses? Not so much.

I like velocity (unless its on Gauss, in which case it becomes superfluous) and increased effective range and accurate is what's most important when you brawl. Otherwise.. you're wasting space for something that can be more effective for that situation. That is how quirks for particular builds have to be evaluated on..

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As I stated before, extreme percentage quirks create further balance issues, whereas varied lesser quirks (HBK-4G) wok as they should to generally improve amech without causing balance see-saws.

It has to be within the context to the mech. Honestly, the 4G and GI are very similar, so if the GI kept its UAC5 buffs, it would've been OK with me anyways (I mean, it forces a standard engine anyways compared to a Gauss Rifle).

The extremes may be needed on mechs that are hardpoint deficient... like say the Spider-5V. When it is NOT hardpoint deficient like the 9S, then there are obvious problems that result.

I mean, it shouldn't take great minds for this, but then again, this is PGI we're dealing with.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 March 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Johny Rocket]

I say all the quirks in the world can't make up for the fact the "glass rifle" is mounted right up top at literally the highest point on what is a soft, slow, squishy mech. Being an LRM boater I smile when I get lock on a GI, if he's carrying the gauss its going to be over quickly with out much ordinance spent.

[Simbacca]

For the Pot of Gold Challenge - I kept my Grid Iron's armament unaltered. I added the AC10 Cooldown Module.

The rate of fire for the AC10 with cooldown module on the Grid Iron was like that of an AC5...

[Juodas Varnas]

Simbacca, on 26 March 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

For the Pot of Gold Challenge - I kept my Grid Iron's armament unaltered. I added the AC10 Cooldown Module.

The rate of fire for the AC10 with cooldown module on the Grid Iron was like that of an AC5...

Faster than the RoF of the Hunchback and the Centurion that have AC10s by default, which is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me. (sure it's only 5% faster, but every tiny bit counts)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 26 March 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[N a p e s]

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Let's use this chart as a baseline.

If the unquirked DPS ratings are considered acceptable than lets keep the final quirked RoF within that range.

5 DPS for the unquirked AC20/3.15 DPS for the unquirked GR = 1.59

8.62/1.59 = 5.42 DPS for the quirked GR

That would mean 15 damage/5.42 DPS = 2.76 second total cooldown (includes 0.75 second charge)

2.01 seconds when not considering the charge time which adds up to just about 50% total cooldown quirk.

It's still super fast for a GR and normalizes (Hi Paul!) the DPS with the AC20.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 26 March 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I say all the quirks in the world can't make up for the fact the "glass rifle" is mounted right up top at literally the highest point on what is a soft, slow, squishy mech. Being an LRM boater I smile when I get lock on a GI, if he's carrying the gauss its going to be over quickly with out much ordinance spent.

so....learn to use that to your advantage? It also means you have to expose next to nothing of your mech to shoot.

[Deathlike]

I guess we kinda need to remind ourselves that a certain few that started this convo wanted more "stock based quirks", rallied for that, and this is what we got.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

I guess we kinda need to remind ourselves that a certain few that started this convo wanted more "stock based quirks", rallied for that, and this is what we got.

Yes, 50% off sales on GR RoF is really "stock based" Quirk. *SMH*

You know, the HBK-4G has a 25% cooldown off it's stock weapon. Guess what, a sane and logical 35% cooldown on the GI Gauss? Would have been a very good stock based quirk.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yes, 50% off sales on GR RoF is really "stock based" Quirk. *SMH*

Actually, I don't believe they were on a 50% sale when that quirk occurred. I could be wrong on that though.

Quote

You know, the HBK-4G has a 25% cooldown off it's stock weapon. Guess what, a sane and logical 35% cooldown on the GI Gauss? Would have been a very good stock based quirk.

Well, I don't make the quirks, so feel free to directly complain to a different person about that.

[N a p e s]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yes, 50% off sales on GR RoF is really "stock based" Quirk. *SMH*

You know, the HBK-4G has a 25% cooldown off it's stock weapon. Guess what, a sane and logical 35% cooldown on the GI Gauss? Would have been a very good stock based quirk.

35% would have been plenty enough indeed and would have made for a total cooldown buff of 52%, just a tad higher than the 50% I proposed in a previous post.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yes, 50% off sales on GR RoF is really "stock based" Quirk. *SMH*

You know, the HBK-4G has a 25% cooldown off it's stock weapon. Guess what, a sane and logical 35% cooldown on the GI Gauss? Would have been a very good stock based quirk.

So this is purely a numbers thing for you? Why is 35% more sane than 50%? Just the number?

It's not like the GI is overpowered right now...

[Michael Abt]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Yes, they lost the NGNG popularity contest poll. They certainly were not tier 1 or 2 like the SHD was pre quirks. And one could argue the 4J, for instance, as a legit 4 or 5. There is nothing inherently making the GI inferior to the 4G though, and no, I can't agree with Michael Abt. The Velocity is useful, but it's not the same degree of useful as another full 25% cooldown. If the Velocity boost was a higher, or the Gauss percentage lower, yeah, maybe a trade off. But in almost all cases, heavily biased, specialized quirks are more potent and meta biasing, than a bunch of more modest quirks.

The Range increase, for how a ac20 mech is going to fight, 99% of the time is nearly pointless. It is situationally handy, but I'm sorry, if you are sitting back at 500 meters and "sniping" with your HBK-4G? You are doing it wrong. And at the sub 300 meter range your weapons are at peak effectiveness? The projectile velocity is of MINIMAL advantage. You can theorycraft situations where it helps all day long, but in actual play? Not that big a deal, in most scenarios.

Right now, I fire every 2.32 seconds with my 42% cooldown decrease.
(still funny how many people try to argue it's not a straight percentage off the RoF...go grab a stopwatch and go to the testing grounds, kids I get 2.51 even with slow reflexes).
With the GIs quirks? Thats a 67% cooldown decrease. That 1.32 seconds. A full second off the current 4G stats and faster than the cooldown on a stock ac5.

Will I "Overheat and Run Out of Ammo" faster? Yes and no. With the ac20 firing that rapidly, you simply don't need your lasers as much until your ammo get's low. Because that's 20 PPFLD every 1.5 seconds or so. So there goe a chunk of your heat. Out of ammo? Still takes the same number of ac20 shots to kill you, regardless of if it's fired every 1.5 second, 2.5 seconds, or 4 seconds. But the other guy gets a whole lot less time to shoot back. That's pretty dang significant, and generally more useful, more often than 200 m/S velocity. (the velocity is nice, and situationally useful, but pays better dividends on higher vel guns in the first place)

(...)

Yep, we agree to disagree on that, Bishop.

For a player with medicore accuracy a higher RoF will be better. If he fires enough rounds he may hit the target often enough and take it out before he gets killed. However, I value the high velocity on the AC20 so much because it translates directly into a higher hit rate which also means i am more precise and not just landing random hits but hit where i want to. It is like comparing a butcher with a surgeon.

Edited by Michael Abt, 26 March 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Actually, I don't believe they were on a 50% sale when that quirk occurred. I could be wrong on that though.



Well, I don't make the quirks, so feel free to directly complain to a different person about that.

Yup went over your head.

I was using it as an expression, not saying they were on sale. as in "when quirks were handed out, apparently someone thought a 50% off cooldown was a good idea".

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Well, I don't make the quirks, so feel free to directly complain to a different person about that.

Um, hence the OP?

Shocker, I know!

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Abt, on 26 March 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Yep, we agree to disagree on that, Bishop.

For a player with medicore accuracy a higher RoF will be better. If he fires enough rounds he may hit the target often enough and take it out before he gets killed. However, I value the high velocity on the AC20 so much because it translates directly into a higher hit rate which also means i am more precise and not just landing random hits but hit where i want to. It is like comparing a butcher with a surgeon.

For a player with higher accuracy, being able to pump fire into a target is also going to kill it faster. Being able to squeeze 7.5 ac20 shots off in 10 seconds vs 4? I'm sorry, but you are deluding yourself if you think that wouldn't all levels of HBK pilots. (And be broken as heck which is why I would never want to see that level of quickening on my 4G. Just like it's broken as heck to be firing off 5 GR shots every 11 seconds. )

But I forgot, you are so much better an HBK pilot than me and everyone else. Yes, RoF only benefits the bads.

SMH.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Yup went over your head.

I was using it as an expression, not saying they were on sale. as in "when quirks were handed out, apparently someone thought a 50% off cooldown was a good idea".

I'm just tired of this thread, so forgive me if I stopped taking your comments as light hearted as you think you had it sound (if the joke isn't very good, not everyone will catch on.)

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Um, hence the OP?

Shocker, I know!

Meh?

I don't think that gets your point across any better. I mean, there are plenty of threads that are derail themselves before they start... I doubt you'd want to make this the next one.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm just tired of this thread, so forgive me if I stopped taking your comments as light hearted as you think you had it sound (if the joke isn't very good, not everyone will catch on.)




Meh?

I don't think that gets your point across any better. I mean, there are plenty of threads that are derail themselves before they start... I doubt you'd want to make this the next one.

so...stop posting on it? And it wasn't light hearted, it was meant to be rathe rscathing. Failed at that too. As for derailing before it starts? Pretty well established, Ulti's kibitzing notwithstanding.

Anyhow, if you're tired of it, the door is over yonder.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 11:56 AM.