214 replies to this topic

[Rhaythe]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

thing is I am comparing hunchback to hunchback and the disparity between. Also, heh-..... I love it when people think my HBK is easy prey.....

Exactly. Let this mindset continue. It pays dividends when you take your GI to CW, and the enemy ignores you in favor of the Thunderbolt standing opposite you.

Mmm, rapid-fire gauss with advanced zoom.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 25 March 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

The thing you seem to not recognize is that Hunchbacks were mostly T4 and T5 crapmechs that no one used, especially the Grid Iron.

Yes, they lost the NGNG popularity contest poll. They certainly were not tier 1 or 2 like the SHD was pre quirks. And one could argue the 4J, for instance, as a legit 4 or 5. There is nothing inherently making the GI inferior to the 4G though, and no, I can't agree with Michael Abt. The Velocity is useful, but it's not the same degree of useful as another full 25% cooldown. If the Velocity boost was a higher, or the Gauss percentage lower, yeah, maybe a trade off. But in almost all cases, heavily biased, specialized quirks are more potent and meta biasing, than a bunch of more modest quirks.

The Range increase, for how a ac20 mech is going to fight, 99% of the time is nearly pointless. It is situationally handy, but I'm sorry, if you are sitting back at 500 meters and "sniping" with your HBK-4G? You are doing it wrong. And at the sub 300 meter range your weapons are at peak effectiveness? The projectile velocity is of MINIMAL advantage. You can theorycraft situations where it helps all day long, but in actual play? Not that big a deal, in most scenarios.

Right now, I fire every 2.32 seconds with my 42% cooldown decrease.
(still funny how many people try to argue it's not a straight percentage off the RoF...go grab a stopwatch and go to the testing grounds, kids I get 2.51 even with slow reflexes).
With the GIs quirks? Thats a 67% cooldown decrease. That 1.32 seconds. A full second off the current 4G stats and faster than the cooldown on a stock ac5.

Will I "Overheat and Run Out of Ammo" faster? Yes and no. With the ac20 firing that rapidly, you simply don't need your lasers as much until your ammo get's low. Because that's 20 PPFLD every 1.5 seconds or so. So there goe a chunk of your heat. Out of ammo? Still takes the same number of ac20 shots to kill you, regardless of if it's fired every 1.5 second, 2.5 seconds, or 4 seconds. But the other guy gets a whole lot less time to shoot back. That's pretty dang significant, and generally more useful, more often than 200 m/S velocity. (the velocity is nice, and situationally useful, but pays better dividends on higher vel guns in the first place)

The simple point you are either not grasping, or trying to obfuscate by comparing the GridIron to other NON Hunchbacks, is the GIs quirks are out of line with other HBKs. Where they sit compared to a Shadowhawk is irrelevant, unless we are talking about the Shadowhawks now needing to be quirked to keep up with the OverQuirk Meta.

Which simply points back to the fact that overquirking chassis are hurting balance more than "fixing" it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[smokefield]

the gauss is a very fragile weapon. the quirks are fine as they are given that you may lose it very early in game with a lucky shot.

[Wrathful Scythe]

smokefield, on 26 March 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

the gauss is a very fragile weapon. the quirks are fine as they are given that you may lose it very early in game with a lucky shot.

You can't lose it early on because your armor needs to be stripped off to get it critted.

[Bishop Steiner]

smokefield, on 26 March 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

the gauss is a very fragile weapon. the quirks are fine as they are given that you may lose it very early in game with a lucky shot.

Then buff the GR's hitpoints for the mech. Problem solved.

Wrathful Scythe, on 26 March 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

You can't lose it early on because your armor needs to be stripped off to get it critted.

Unless you lose it to a double GR/2x PPC Dire Wolf,

Stargell, on 26 March 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

I'm seeing a lot of posting about the problems of the Grid Iron's quirks on paper ('That number is too high! It should be lower!'), but I'm not seeing any evidence of the 'problem' in the actual game.

I don't see all the crime in Chelsea while I live in Staten Island, so it must not exist.......

[Paigan]

I didn't know the Grid Iron had 50% cooldown (I don't pay a lot attention to IS not under my reticle, guilty).

That's about as balanced as the Dragon's 50% cooldown.

Almost gives me the impression that PGI thought 50% cooldown would mean 50% more DPS.
Which is WRONG.
50% cooldown means 200% DPS.

I don't think any argumentation is needed to identify that as overpowered.
You can't just take an AC/5 and make it worth (almost) 2 AC/5s.

if nothing else, this is a "declaration of bankruptcy" of the quirking concept.

Special traits and identity (including negative bonuses), yes.
Defining roles and diversification, yes.
Pump Lostech up until it's even better than Clan tech (sorry there IS a basic lore here), omfgwtflololo...


Give them ammo bonus quirks or speed quirks or whatever fancy stuff.
Or my personal favourite: more consumables for IS, less/none for Clans.
But not X hundred percent DPS weapons.

Edited by Paigan, 26 March 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Paigan, on 26 March 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

I didn't know the Grid Iron had 50% cooldown (I don't pay a lot attention to IS not under my reticle, guilty).

That's about as balanced as the Dragon's 50% cooldown.

Almost gives me the impression that PGI thought 50% cooldown would mean 50% more DPS.
Which is WRONG.
50% cooldown means 200% DPS.

I don't think any argumentation is needed to identify that as overpowered.
You can't just take an AC/5 and make it worth (almost) 2 AC/5s.

if nothing else, this is a "declaration of bankruptcy" of the quirking concept.

Special traits and identity (including negative bonuses), yes.
Defining roles and diversification, yes.
Pump Lostech up until it's even better than Clan tech (sorry there IS a basic lore here), omfgwtflololo...


Give them ammo bonus quirks or speed quirks or whatever fancy stuff.
Or my personal favourite: more consumables for IS, less/none for Clans.
But not X hundred percent DPS weapons.

It certainly implies something is so horribly designed in the first place is to use "quirks" to change it so utterly, it's essentially something else. and 50% Cooldown IMO is a good example of changing the weapon into something else. And that doesn't even touch on what happens with a 12% module and 5% Cooldown Skill.

I consider the AC20 RoF on the HBK.4G to be borderline, meaning I can make justifications for it to be just right or borderline OP with a straight face. Once you get to the levels of the old TDR-5S ERPPC heat reduction, or the Cooldown on the DRG-1N or GI, IMO, it says you have much bigger underlying problems in desperate need of a fix, and that the quirks are a bandaid. Unfortunately they are a bandaid that forces one singular build if the mech is to even be viable...which means the chassis itself is still broken.

Been beating this drum since the Quirkening: Quirks should be relatively minor, icing on the cake touches to define the mechs individual characteristics, and give a boost where needed to be a viable chassis (note I said viable, not OPTIMAL, a concept that many comps can't figure out). Right now they are duct tape disguising 2.5 years bad model design, poor scaling, broken hitreg, lazy animations, and poor hardpoint inflation decisions by PGI.

PGI has done a lot of things I applaud since divesting themselves of IGP. But unless the quirks are just to "buy themselves time" while they make proper fixes (in which case, maybe, IDK...communicate that to the community?), they are rapidly shifting from a good idea and golden oppurtunity to one more balance millstone around the bloated neck of balance "fixes".

[Davers]

After reading this thread, I think I will buy a Grid Iron.

[Bishop Steiner]

Davers, on 26 March 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

After reading this thread, I think I will buy a Grid Iron.

You should. As long as you are good at positioning, and your team doesn't fail-fold, you can do some very naughty things with it.

[Revis Volek]

Michael Abt, on 24 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

Have to disagree on this one, Bishop. The AC20 velocity quirk is the most underrated yet so important quirk the 4G has to offer.

That AC20 Shell FLIES outta that hunch! Its super fast , most the time peeps cannot torso twist away faster then the shell travels through the air. (other then SCRs but thats a Hitbox discussion)

But i do not think it is more important then then Cooldown, Higher DPS on a Big Punch weapon like that is deadly.

Davers, on 26 March 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

After reading this thread, I think I will buy a Grid Iron.

I certainly advise it to anyone who enjoys Gauss or the Hunchie as a chassis.

Edited by DarthRevis, 26 March 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Iskareot]

Yeah I feel like this my son coming to rat out his sister..... and tell me something she did.

I just don't know why lol.....

I can think of 10 things you could spend that energy on over this in this game right now. --- I am sad it is this one.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

thing is I am comparing hunchback to hunchback and the disparity between.

I don't think your comparison is fair, and I don't see the disparity due to the additional quirks the 4G has.

You've handwaived away the other quirks, multiple posters have told you those quirks are valuable.

Stargell, on 26 March 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

I'm seeing a lot of posting about the problems of the Grid Iron's quirks on paper ('That number is too high! It should be lower!'), but I'm not seeing any evidence of the 'problem' in the actual game.

Basically this.

It's not even remotely a problem mech, at all.

It simply has a CD rate that is higher than the 4Gs AC 20 rate, but that is only analyzing one slice of the pie and not the entire pie itself.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

There is nothing inherently making the GI inferior to the 4G though,

Inherently inferior at base? No it isn,t I agree.

However a part of this was role space for each variant, without quirks there is no reason to take the GI when the 4G exists.

A part of this was based on the stock load out.

The stock loadout for the GI is a Gauss Rifle.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

and no, I can't agree with Michael Abt. The Velocity is useful, but it's not the same degree of useful as another full 25% cooldown. If the Velocity boost was a higher, or the Gauss percentage lower, yeah, maybe a trade off.

That's your opinion.

The Velocity of 25% pushes the AC 20 for the 4G to nearly AC 10 speeds.

It becomes 812m/s vs. AC 10 at 950m/s standard.


That does a few things for the 4Gs AC 20.

It increases accuracy, which is a damage/kill power boost.
It increases usable range.



EX:

AC 20 @ 650m/s firing on target at 300m = travel time of 0.46s
AC 20 @ 650m/s firing on target at 400m = travel time of 0.62s

AC 20 @ 812m/s firing on target at 300m = travel time of 0.37s
AC 20 @ 812m/s firing on target at 400m = travel time of 0.49s


So as you can see here, you go from a projectile delivery of 0.46s @ 300m to a projectile delivery of 0.49s @ 400m - an extra 100m of practical effective range for what is clearly the deadliest close range weapon in the game.



As the 4G also received an increased range boost, it can hit targets without damage drop off up to 364m with Quirk + T5 module.





They basically gave the 4G a 360m range AC 20 along with sufficient velocity to use that range as if it were still firing at targets inside 270m



Targets inside 270m on the other hand, now have to deal with a much more deadly, and accurate, AC 20 projectile




You mentioned cold, hard, math in this thread earlier.

This is cold, hard math.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

The Velocity is useful, but it's not the same degree of useful as another full 25% cooldown.

Keep in mind though, the Gauss rifle is a full 0.75s slower in it's fire rate vs. an AC 20 to begin with - so it's already starting with a higher rate of fire.


AC 20 = every 4s
Gauss = every 4.75s (4s CD + 0.75s recycle)

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

The Range increase, for how a ac20 mech is going to fight, 99% of the time is nearly pointless. It is situationally handy,

Your minimizing here, and this is your opinion.

Increasing effective range of a weapon from 270 to around 400m (some tiny drop off, but not much) means the 4G has an AC 20 that can function in scenarios you might also use an AC 10.



I personally think, 300 to 400m, is one of the most important range brackets in the game when it comes to solo/team public queue matches.



I agree that you don't want to sit back and snipe at 500m, but that's not what we're (or at least not what I) are discussing.


It's a 25% CD increase, a 25% velocity increase and a 25% range increase for the 4Gs AC 20

vs.

A 50% CD increase for the GI's Gauss.




For me this is simple.

I would choose the 4G for brawling over the GI. It has the better collection of attributes for it.

I would choose the GI for sniping, because it has the better attribute for it.


Honestly, considering what they had to work with - these two mechs now have very clearly defined roles vs. one another.


You can put a different ballistic on the GI, but you won't get nearly as much out of it as you would on the specialist.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 March 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I don't think your comparison is fair, and I don't see the disparity due to the additional quirks the 4G has.

You've handwaived away the other quirks, multiple posters have told you those quirks are valuable.









Basically this.

It's not even remotely a problem mech, at all.

It simply has a CD rate that is higher than the 4Gs AC 20 rate, but that is only analyzing one slice of the pie and not the entire pie itself.









Inherently inferior at base? No it isn,t I agree.

However a part of this was role space for each variant, without quirks there is no reason to take the GI when the 4G exists.

A part of this was based on the stock load out.

The stock loadout for the GI is a Gauss Rifle.







That's your opinion.

The Velocity of 25% pushes the AC 20 for the 4G to nearly AC 10 speeds.

It becomes 812m/s vs. AC 10 at 950m/s standard.


That does a few things for the 4Gs AC 20.

It increases accuracy, which is a damage/kill power boost.
It increases usable range.



EX:

AC 20 @ 650m/s firing on target at 300m = travel time of 0.46s
AC 20 @ 650m/s firing on target at 400m = travel time of 0.62s

AC 20 @ 812m/s firing on target at 300m = travel time of 0.37s
AC 20 @ 812m/s firing on target at 400m = travel time of 0.49s


So as you can see here, you go from a projectile delivery of 0.46s @ 300m to a projectile delivery of 0.49s @ 400m.



As the 4G also recieved an increased range boost, it can hit targets without damage drop off up to 364m with Quirk + T5 module.





They basically gave the 4G a 360m range AC 20 along with sufficient velocity to use that range as if it were still firing at targets inside 270m



Targets inside 270m on the other hand, now have to deal with a much more deadly, and accurate, AC 20 projectile




You mentioned cold, hard, math in this thread earlier.

This is cold, hard math.








Keep in mind though, the Gauss rifle is a full 0.75s slower in it's fire rate vs. an AC 20 to begin with - so it's already starting with a higher rate of fire.


AC 20 = every 4s
Gauss = every 4.75s (4s CD + 0.75s recycle)






Your minimizing here, and this is your opinion.

Increasing effective range of a weapon from 270 to around 400m (some tiny drop off, but not much) means the 4G has an AC 20 that can function in scenarios you might also use an AC 10.



I personally think, 300 to 400m, is one of the most important range brackets in the game when it comes to solo/team public queue matches.



I agree that you don't want to sit back and snipe at 500m, but that's not what we're (or at least not what I) are discussing.


It's a 25% CD increase, a 25% velocity increase and a 25% range increase for the 4Gs AC 20

vs.

A 50% CD increase for the GI's Gauss.




For me this is simple.

I would choose the 4G for brawling over the GI. It has the better collection of attributes for it.

I would choose the GI for sniping, because it has the better attribute for it.


Honestly, considering what they had to work with - these two mechs now have very clearly defined roles vs. one another.


You can put a different ballistic on the GI, but you won't get nearly as much out of it as you would on the specialist.

Actually, I didn't handwave away anything. You are simply putting ridiculous overemphasis on the actual importance of the velocity boost on a short range gun.

But I'm used to the cherry picking fights with you, so carry on.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Actually, I didn't handwave away anything. You are simply putting ridiculous overemphasis on the actual importance of the velocity boost on a short range gun.

But I'm used to the cherry picking fights with you, so carry on.

Cherry picking is when we ignore math, or things that do not support our agenda and put forward only a tiny portion of what is really there.

Like when you ignore the velocity boost, range boost, and the higher native cooldown of the AC 20 and the higher damage per single projectile.

Those are facts.



That's math. I'm not cherry picking the math, I'm emphasizing it.


You're the one who wants to downplay those aspects, because it simply doesn't suit your agenda here.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 March 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[smokefield]

Quote

Quirks should be relatively minor...,

i understand what your point is and in a minor part i can agree with it but overall i disagree, if that makes sense. I think that quirks need to be significantly alter the mech, but i think that one needs to work for those quirks, similar with the pilot skill.

For example the GI - if one uses the GI with gauss and wins 250 games having 1 kill he gets a +10 cooldown. at 500games he gets 25%.....you get the idea. The same applies for it if he uses AC20 ..but one mech cant have more than 1 quirk from each type per weapon type - meaning it can have 1 balistic cool and 1 balistic range.. 1 energy cool and 1 energy range...you got the idea i hope

it would be much interesting and you would see much more variety of mechs with this system than with the present one who forces players to play those "optimal" mechs.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Actually, I didn't handwave away anything. You are simply putting ridiculous overemphasis on the actual importance of the velocity boost on a short range gun.

But I'm used to the cherry picking fights with you, so carry on.

Velocity is important... even if it is short range. The accuracy you need to make vs a light mech on a slower shooting gun increases difficulty quite a bit.

It's like trying to make use of NARC w/o the NARC module. It's a very different beast.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Cherry picking is when we ignore math, or things that do not support our agenda and put forward only a tiny portion of what is really there.

Like when you ignore the velocity boost, range boost, and the higher native cooldown of the AC 20 and the higher damage per single projectile.

Those are facts.



That's math. I'm not cherry picking the math, I'm emphasizing it.


You're the one who wants to downplay those aspects, because it simply doesn't suit your agenda here.

as your totally ignoring the difference in RoF does. You want to constantly round the velocity up to make it sound like it's an ac10, which is of moderate velocity in the first place, and totally ignore the difference in RoF.

The GI can fire an ac20 at the same RoF as the 4G, and the Gauss WITH charge ver 2 seconds (2.07). With a 1980 meter range, essentially no heat, 2000 m/s velocity and better ammo consumption. And you want me to believe that a 800 M/S velocity on the 4Gs ac20, giving it a 100 meter more "useful" range is of equal value.

At the very least be honest enough to admit it should not be able to run the same RoF as the HBK 2G with a 20 and BETTER than the 4H with a 10, and then totally blow every other gauss carrier RoF away, to boot. If you were at least arguing that a 10% ballistics with 40% Gauss cooldown or something equally nuts, I could see some attempt to actually balance the mech.

But you don't. Instead you keep beating the same drum, the same way you did on the "totally not OP" TDR-9S quirks, and dismiss anything but your one, very very narrow, very narrow application point.

So huh, who has an agenda?

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Velocity is important... even if it is short range. The accuracy you need to make vs a light mech on a slower shooting gun increases difficulty quite a bit.

It's like trying to make use of NARC w/o the NARC module. It's a very different beast.

No crap. And I never said it ain't important.

But at short range, the actual accuracy boost is minimal, it's mid to long range you see it more heavily affecting your shot. If you couldn't hit a mech at 250-400 meters with a 650 m/s ac20, I'm willing to bet you were also missing it a lot with a 950 m/s ac10. It helps, but at "normal" engagement ranges for the mech? it helps what 3-5%, maybe?

Vs shaving an entire second off of cooldown? I'm sorry but someone is overselling a feature and underselling another, when the numbers are put into use, and it ain't me.

[Ultimax]

Paigan, on 26 March 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

Almost gives me the impression that PGI thought 50% cooldown would mean 50% more DPS.

I think the current consensus is that: (REF: https://www.reddit.c...oldown_applied/)

So assuming:

Modified Cooldown = Basecooldown * (1 - (sum of all modifiers))

Then







So no, the GI does not have higher DPS with the Gauss.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

I think the current consensus is that: (REF: https://www.reddit.c...oldown_applied/)

So assuming:

Modified Cooldown = Basecooldown * (1 - (sum of all modifiers))

Then







So no, the GI does not have higher DPS with the Gauss.

just 3.5 time the range, 16% of the heat, and more shots per ton.
Tradeoff, Charge Mechanic and fragility. (Which I admit, the Gauss is probably too fragile. So, drop 15% gauss cooldown from the GI and buff it's HPs, or better yet buff the GRs HP period)

PGI wanted it to be a "sniper's weapon", not a chaingun, remember?