214 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 24 March 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Geez I need to watch you pilot one, all the HBKs I had before quirks long ago were terrible. Since quirks I bought an SP for hilarity, to stop light rushes in CW, but my general feeling grinding it was "why are there even medium mechs?".

Everything kills you. Lights can do multiple 40 point alpha strikes, heavies can too, assaults just laugh at you, and youre stuck with short range weapons that basically require your team to position well so you can Kool Aid Man into a fight and back out. I aint got time for that.

The only time I did well or see them get kills is when some poor light runs face first into the AC20. Or admittedly, when I was bad, I loved to use the thing to run around and steal kills, since 20 PPFLD is still awesome.

Its just way less awesome now after TTK has been annihilated by the quirkpocalypse.

Well, recall, I'm the guy who does well, and loves Vindicators, too. But my preferred mechs are Mediums. I love HBKs above all else, especially my HBK-4G(F). I did well in it pre-quirks, and post quirks, do rather well, overall. It and my 4J "Projectile Vomit" are my go to mechs, overall.

But I'm almost as happy in my CN9-D, YLW, VND-1AA, SIB, BJ1, ENF-4R, SHD-2D2 and such. Actually, post quirks, I've gotten worse in my 55 tonners.... I used to rock the GF and WVRs and SHDs. Now not as much.

But I think if I was reduced to 5 mechs for the rest of this game, my HBK4G, HBK-4J, ENF-4D, CN9-D and VND-1AA would be my choices (unless they release Assassins orr Vulcans.....)

Deathlike, on 24 March 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Why is today "Bishop Steiner's vendetta bucket list release day"?

Since there is no event for now, I should have enough time posting about stuff... but that is neither here nor there.

The Gauss Iron is nice, but it has its set of weaknesses. Still, I'm not panicking about that, but the dual UAC5 Grid Iron was at least reasonably interesting (since you can't run XL on that) before the requirkening because people wanted it with a Gauss quirk.

Congrats to getting one crazy build over another.

Yes, it has it's weaknesses. Same ones as every other HBK. So why does it get the ability to run any ballistics as good as the others, AND gauss at twice the ability of other ballistics?

Kinda defeats the concept of being...balanced?

[Elizander]

Gauss is so yesterday. It's all about ERLL now.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

And I think it's borderline and due for about a 10% reduction to the cooldown, but I don't tend to find them that overboard in general. Though I suck at driving them, lol.

Having just slid back into the Dragon chassis, after a brake of playing clan mechs (and getting to be a better pilot at the same time), I find the 1N fits me like a glove, I run it like a big Locust, hit and fade.... my biggest gripe with it, is I run out of ammo for the dual 5's in the arm, and then forced to rely on two MLas...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

This along with the Misery and Sparky make me wish heroes weren't paywalled.

I do agree the Grid Iron may be overquirked, it is definitely one of the most fearsome Hunchbacks. You may want to keep in mind though that the HBK-4G has velocity and range quirks on top of the cooldown which lends itself to the slower and shorter ranged ballistics which limits itself to the AC20 and AC10. The HBK-4H has less quirks thanks to the ability to mount 6 MLs on top of a decent DPS weapon that is the AC10. The biggest problem is the Grid Iron just has the best ballistic weapon for its quirks which is why I would agree with a slight decrease.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yes, it has it's weaknesses. Same ones as every other HBK. So why does it get the ability to run any ballistics as good as the others, AND gauss at twice the ability of other ballistics?

Have you actually seen the BJ-1DC before the requirkening? 20% ballistic cooldown with an additional 20% bonus to AC5 Cooldown (IIRC) was nothing to scoff at. Of course... the nerfs came and I didn't recall it being a meta-CW mech (at least on the forums).

So, perhaps you may be overstating the role of the Gaussback here... similar to the dakka Dragon. I could be wrong.

Quote

Kinda defeats the concept of being...balanced?

It depends on the context. I'd suspect our favorite Hunchback pilot (JMan5) could tell if you this was overly useful (it probably is), but then again I see him with that Lurmback-4J and terrorizing everyone in his vision. So, it kinda is what it is.

If you're honestly that concerned, you could just reduce both cooldown bonuses by 5% and that should be more than enough a nerf that doesn't kill it outright.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 24 March 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

This along with the Misery and Sparky make me wish heroes weren't paywalled.

I do agree the Grid Iron may be overquirked, it is definitely one of the most fearsome Hunchbacks. You may want to keep in mind though that the HBK-4G has velocity and range quirks on top of the cooldown which lends itself to the slower and shorter ranged ballistics which limits itself to the AC20 and AC10. The HBK-4H has less quirks thanks to the ability to mount 6 MLs on top of a decent DPS weapon that is the AC10. The biggest problem is the Grid Iron just has the best ballistic weapon for its quirks which is why I would agree with a slight decrease.

those range quirks are near worthless to be honest. You are still not hitting much beside a barn past 400 meters. Whereas the Goos has 2k m/s speed and 2.5 time the range of the AC20? And insane RoF? When I use it, it's like, charge, fire, charge, fire.

The 2 sets of quirks don't even compare, in real game advantage.

[DarthPeanut]

I have to ask since I am a bit curious Bishop. It seems you think the GI is out of line for the sheer fact the quirk is such a large % value?

I am reading your OP through which seems to focus on that 50% number as the clear indicator of being OP and then your reply confirming it is still your worst Hunchie. Could it not have been just so bad pre-quirks that it needed such a large quirk to be viable as we see now?

ETA: To take it one step further, should no mech ever have a quirk with a numerical % value of over... say 25%, 30%, etc?

Edited by DarthPeanut, 24 March 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Have you actually seen the BJ-1DC before the requirkening? 20% ballistic cooldown with an additional 20% bonus to AC5 Cooldown (IIRC) was nothing to scoff at. Of course... the nerfs came and I didn't recall it being a meta-CW mech (at least on the forums).

So, perhaps you may be overstating the role of the Gaussback here... similar to the dakka Dragon. I could be wrong.





It depends on the context. I'd suspect our favorite Hunchback pilot (JMan5) could tell if you this was overly useful (it probably is), but then again I see him with that Lurmback-4J and terrorizing everyone in his vision. So, it kinda is what it is.

If you're honestly that concerned, you could just reduce both cooldown bonuses by 5% and that should be more than enough a nerf that doesn't kill it outright.

and just how much weapon and ammo could the dual ac5 BJ1 carry? Was not really able to sustain. It's amazing what 10 xtra tons can do for you.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

well, they don't die any easier than any other Hunchback...except when you get pilots who don't know how to use a Glass Rifle. (Like popping an XL in a HBK).

Sadly, pilot stupidity is not a good basis for game balance, lol.


I'm going to assume, your Elo is somewhat high in which case, yes, the SCR will reign supreme. More versatile, undying C-XL, broken walking animation magic armor.......

Depends, you see the die hard hunch guys in GI's and 4Js and 4Ps here and there...not just all the time mind you, and the 4G is probably the most common you see...though the AH and YLW cents are probably a bit more common.

[Christof Romulus]

Bishop,

You know why the Grid Iron has the Quirks it has.

The Grid Iron was placed in the same tier bracket as the Wolverine - Tier 5. Tier 5 mechs receive Tier 5 quirks.

You say that no mech should require that much to be viable, yet we have that for the Dragon and, as I mentioned earlier, the Wolverine.

So, why is it Tier 5? Remove all quirks, it brings two ballistic, one missile and 3 energy. The hardpoints are wide, and (as you may recall pre quirks) on a bad chassis. It doesn't allow boating, as only Assaults and heavies can truly boat ballistics, and it only has one six-tube launcher.

Ultimately, it's not a great chassis and like the other Inner Sphere junk mechs, it received tuning according to that.

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthPeanut, on 24 March 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

I have to ask since I am a bit curious Bishop. It seems you think the GI is out of line for the sheer fact the quirk is such a large % value?

I am reading your OP through which seems to focus on that 50% number as the clear indicator of being OP and then your reply confirming it is still your worst Hunchie. Could it not have been just so bad pre-quirks that it needed such a large quirk to be viable as we see now?

Same hitboxes and armor. Same movement, agility, etc. The GI was never worse before by mechanics. It's essentially identical to a HBK-4G, just traded one extraneous ballistics mount for an equally extraneous missile one.


For me it's my worst because I am not a good mobile gauss user. Only mech I do well with Gauss tends to be my Misery and my Atlas RS. On more mobile mechs, I need more snap fire weapons, just my own limitations. So it was the worst because instead of running it as a clone to my 4G (boring..people that run identical builds across a chassis confuse me), I tried to run either Gauss or dual UAC5, one of which I am mediocre with, the other weapon which exposed the chassis biggest flaw, that big old RT.

Since I have a Founder's 4G already, don't get any real bonus to slapping an ac20 on the GI. And quirks or no, I'm still mediocre with the Gauss. Hence, it's still overall, my worst HBK. (Though I am not a great 4P pilot, either)

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

and just how much weapon and ammo could the dual ac5 BJ1 carry? Was not really able to sustain. It's amazing what 10 xtra tons can do for you.

I was talking about the BJ-1DC...

BJ-1DC

Conceptually, this isn't really optimal, but 6 tons of ammo @ that speed is pretty good (though probably not enough for CW).

BJ-1DC

If you wanted 8 tons, that's what it would kinda look like.

That should be more than enough for a straight ammo dump.

Edit - Reference Link:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ium_innersphere

Edited by Deathlike, 24 March 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Christof Romulus, on 24 March 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Bishop,

You know why the Grid Iron has the Quirks it has.

The Grid Iron was placed in the same tier bracket as the Wolverine - Tier 5. Tier 5 mechs receive Tier 5 quirks.

You say that no mech should require that much to be viable, yet we have that for the Dragon and, as I mentioned earlier, the Wolverine.

So, why is it Tier 5? Remove all quirks, it brings two ballistic, one missile and 3 energy. The hardpoints are wide, and (as you may recall pre quirks) on a bad chassis. It doesn't allow boating, as only Assaults and heavies can truly boat ballistics, and it only has one six-tube launcher.

Ultimately, it's not a great chassis and like the other Inner Sphere junk mechs, it received tuning according to that.

Was the not 4G also not placed in Tier 5?

Also, the original tiering was a NGNG created thing, it appears, and had more to do with popularity and Sean's pet builds than reality.

Not the best basis for solid quirks, and why most of the original set were trashed.

[meteorol]

Well, i agree those 50% quirks are excessive, but...

I see a single Grid Iron like every 10 or 15 game i play. Stormcrows all over the place. I encounter a few more in group queue, but (for me) it's still a pretty rare mech to see.

I fear the number of Grid irons will go down close to zero again if quirks are changed. It's not like teams are dropping with 40 Grid Irons in CW. I don't own hunchbacks and i never will, but honestly i don't think the Grid Iron is much of an issue.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

I was talking about the BJ-1DC...

BJ-1DC

Conceptually, this isn't really optimal, but 6 tons of ammo @ that speed is pretty good (though probably not enough for CW).

BJ-1DC

If you wanted 8 tons, that's what it would kinda look like.

That should be more than enough for a straight ammo dump.

XL and no secondary weapons, nor JJs. Color me unimpressed?
Also, what are it's CURRENT quirks? What a mech used to have would be...kind of irrelevant to this conversation.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Was the not 4G also not placed in Tier 5?

Also, the original tiering was a NGNG created thing, it appears, and had more to do with popularity and Sean's pet builds than reality.

Not the best basis for solid quirks, and why most of the original set were trashed.

Except they are still severely underworking anything with JJs, AND god HELP you were a popular mech before quirks I'm talking Victor/Highlander/Phract/Raven

[Apnu]

Sarlic, on 24 March 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

They Grid's can sure crank out some good DPS. Especially with a gauss rifle.

However, they're still fairly easy to destroy.

Unfortunatly i do see many people using the Grid wrong. Particular positioning with a Gauss rifle in your hands. Aside from the DW's.

Truth. The trick for the Grid Iron is to avoid attention. Let the brawl start, don't be the point of the spear, don't be in the mix. Stay to the fringe of the melee and bring fire from there. Once you're spotted and focused, you're probably out gunned. Though 3xMPL does make a great defense system. GI is also great sniping from cover.

although I think the Gauss barrel sticking out that far looks really frigging silly. I wish they'd cut that down a bit or re-mesh the hunch so it looks more like a Gauss and less like an AC20 with an lying problem.

[Bishop Steiner]

Apnu, on 24 March 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Truth. The trick for the Grid Iron is to avoid attention. Let the brawl start, don't be the point of the spear, don't be in the mix. Stay to the fringe of the melee and bring fire from there. Once you're spotted and focused, you're probably out gunned. Though 3xMPL does make a great defense system. GI is also great sniping from cover.

although I think the Gauss barrel sticking out that far looks really frigging silly. I wish they'd cut that down a bit or re-mesh the hunch so it looks more like a Gauss and less like an AC20 with an lying problem.

I find the 3 MPL eats too much tonnage from other things for me. Actually, because of the whole "get noticed and get hosed" thing, I think my GI was running just the head laser, and more Gauss ammo.

Annd yeah, dear god I wish they weren't so lazy with the custom weapons on the Hunch.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

those range quirks are near worthless to be honest. You are still not hitting much beside a barn past 400 meters. Whereas the Goos has 2k m/s speed and 2.5 time the range of the AC20? And insane RoF? When I use it, it's like, charge, fire, charge, fire.

The 2 sets of quirks don't even compare, in real game advantage.

You undersell that range + velocity improvement, which really the range improvement is minimal in comparison to the velocity. Is it as awesome as the Grid Iron's quirks, no, but the 4G is still able to beat the GI under 400m through a combination of its lasers and AC20. That isn't even mentioning the slightly more fragile nature of the GI thanks to Goose explosions.

Don't get me wrong, I think the GI is one of the better Hunchbacks, but not by that much over the 4P or 4G.

I'd say just reduce the cooldown quirks to 40% total instead of the current 50% would be enough.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 24 March 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Revis Volek]

KraftySOT, on 24 March 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

Yeah anything that does fire support is tough in puglandia. If they leave you, youre dead, if a light shows up, youre dead, if the entire team goes and dies, youre dead.

And of course some maps are better than others. River City Night is Grid Irons nightmare.

Its not bad when you learn the lighting on the map and turn off Hulk Vision...

I honestly stopped using night vision outside of brawls, you can see dark silhouettes very far out on that map especially against the brown water.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

I find the 3 MPL eats too much tonnage from other things for me. Actually, because of the whole "get noticed and get hosed" thing, I think my GI was running just the head laser, and more Gauss ammo.

Annd yeah, dear god I wish they weren't so lazy with the custom weapons on the Hunch.

I found a happy medium currently with 2 MPL and the rest Gauss ammo. I was running just a norm med on the head for a little extra range but i dont like not using the quirks when i can.

Edited by DarthRevis, 24 March 2015 - 01:27 PM.