214 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Void Angel, on 26 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Well, you asked; it's not enough to just hand-wave away significant quirks just because they're not cooldown - you yourself listed heat as one of the drawbacks of LRMs, after all. Spreading the wealth isn't the same as having multiple quirks for a single specialized weapon system.

But hey, you don't want to defend your position any more, so... I guess thanks?

Huh. SO that's what I did? Got it.

Or maybe I pointed out that not all quirks are created equal? Oh, yeah, that might be more like it.

Hey look, I decided 40% cooldown on the CN9-Ds LB-X was OK....but it's just as good if I give it 20% Cooldown and 20% more range. It's still 40% total quirks to the same specialized weapon system, right?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Huh. SO that's what I did? Got it.

Or maybe I pointed out that not all quirks are created equal? Oh, yeah, that might be more like it.

Hey look, I decided 40% cooldown on the CN9-Ds LB-X was OK....but it's just as good if I give it 20% Cooldown and 20% more range. It's still 40% total quirks to the same specialized weapon system, right?

Those are two very different situations though, the LBX can't really use range thanks to the spread, the AC20 can and does make great use of that extra velocity and range. Don't get me wrong, those two are not equal and you would hope PGI would understand that, but meh, that's not what this discussion really boils down to.

You can say "git gud" all you want, but that extra velocity is what makes the 4G worth taking the GI over for AC20s since they have the same cooldown, the 4G just has a little extra. Now if we are talking GI with Gauss vs 4G with AC20 that's a little bit more difficult since they do two very different things.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 March 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 26 March 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

Those are two very different situations though, the LBX can't really use range thanks to the spread, the AC20 can and does make great use of that extra velocity and range.
You can say "git gud" all you want, but that extra velocity is what makes the 4G worth taking the GI over for AC20s since they have the same cooldown, the 4G just has a little extra. Now if we are talking GI with Gauss vs 4G with AC20 that's a little bit more difficult since they do two very different things.

That's called using intentional hyperbole to make a point.

Point is, 10% here, 10% there, is not the as 10% elsewhere. Again, the range and velocity is nice. But it's near as devastating as the same bonuses added to cooldown. Same reason that adding 40% velocity boost to a PPC is overall better than adding 20% velocity and 20% range, because it specializes that weapon even more.

Simply put, just because it is a 25% "boost" to that velocity, doesn't make it equal to what 25% boost to the cooldown does for the weapon.

I'm sure the 4G would be JUST as popular if it had a 50% velocity boost but nor Cooldown boost. It's the same % affecting the same system, after all.

Heck, the %s aren't even created equal, because 25% more velocity on an ac10 is a heck of a lot different from 25% velocity on an ac20.

The point being, the amount of "better" the 4G has over the GI with an ac20, is relatively minor. The single most effective quirk is the same on both. Yet , how effective is the 4G if I slap a Gauss on it? I mean, hey, I get a 12.5% velocity boost after all......

Aka, the quirks are very lopsided in favor of the Paywall Model. It is more versatile, and more specialized, all at once.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 05:25 PM.

[1453 R]

Void Angel, on 26 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Well, you asked; it's not enough to just hand-wave away significant quirks just because they're not cooldown - you yourself listed heat as one of the drawbacks of LRMs, after all. Spreading the wealth isn't the same as having multiple quirks for a single specialized weapon system.

But hey, you don't want to defend your position any more, so... I guess thanks?

I’m not sure what this is from? But it’s actually an interesting point of discussion.

Out of all the quirks/quirk types available in the game, only two really result in MOAR DAMAGE – heat reduction (more heat efficient, more shots taken before overheat, ergo MOAR DAMAGE), and refire rate (kina self explanatory). Beam duration reduction, increased range, increased projectile velocity, all the other various and sundry quirk types are indirect damage buffs if they’re damage buffs at all. Some of them are indeed very useful, PPC velocity quirks being the usual standout example, but I feel as if a 30% beam reduction quirk, or a 30% projectile velocity quirk, isn’t going to be as valuable as a 30% refire quirk or a 30% heat quirk because the former two don’t actually let you do anything the ‘Mech couldn’t do normally.

They make it easier to land shots and deal (full) damage, sometimes they improve defensive abilities in that beam reduction improves twisting times, but a ‘Mech with a 30% velocity quirk is incapable of matching the DPS of the same ‘Mech with a 30% refire quirk for the same weapon, while the guy with the refire quirk CAN, in fact, match the velocity quirk guy’s accuracy with some practice and gumption. Same thing for heat reduction quirks – there’s no way for player skill to compensate for a shot generating 30% less heat and thus leaving more room beneath the heat ceiling for more shots, while player skill CAN compensate for slow projectiles, long burn times, or other ‘convenience’-type quirks.

There’s a reason those two quirk types tend to be what make or break a ‘Mech’s quirks list. The FS9-S alone proves that heat reduction quirks are incredibly valuable – it gets nothing but 30% Mpulse heat reduction, no range or duration or anything like the Wubberbolts or what-have-you, and yet that 30% heat reduction’s proven to be (arguably) completely broken in practice because it translates into a direct, incontrovertible increase in the amount of sustained DPS the ‘Mech can put out.

In the hands of a bad pilot who misses half his shots, that increase likely doesn’t matter as much, and that guy might well prefer duration decreases instead to help his shoddy aim and improve his own damage output more than heat reduction does. In the hands of a really good pilot who hits what he shoots at already…well, duration decreases don’t help him nearly as much as an extra alpha or two before he’s riding the red.

And neither of those compares to getting three alphas out there in the space of time your enemy gets two. As the Gridiron and the Hugginz prove.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 26 March 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

I’m not sure what this is from? But it’s actually an interesting point of discussion.

Out of all the quirks/quirk types available in the game, only two really result in MOAR DAMAGE – heat reduction (more heat efficient, more shots taken before overheat, ergo MOAR DAMAGE), and refire rate (kina self explanatory). Beam duration reduction, increased range, increased projectile velocity, all the other various and sundry quirk types are indirect damage buffs if they’re damage buffs at all. Some of them are indeed very useful, PPC velocity quirks being the usual standout example, but I feel as if a 30% beam reduction quirk, or a 30% projectile velocity quirk, isn’t going to be as valuable as a 30% refire quirk or a 30% heat quirk because the former two don’t actually let you do anything the ‘Mech couldn’t do normally.

They make it easier to land shots and deal (full) damage, sometimes they improve defensive abilities in that beam reduction improves twisting times, but a ‘Mech with a 30% velocity quirk is incapable of matching the DPS of the same ‘Mech with a 30% refire quirk for the same weapon, while the guy with the refire quirk CAN, in fact, match the velocity quirk guy’s accuracy with some practice and gumption. Same thing for heat reduction quirks – there’s no way for player skill to compensate for a shot generating 30% less heat and thus leaving more room beneath the heat ceiling for more shots, while player skill CAN compensate for slow projectiles, long burn times, or other ‘convenience’-type quirks.

There’s a reason those two quirk types tend to be what make or break a ‘Mech’s quirks list. The FS9-S alone proves that heat reduction quirks are incredibly valuable – it gets nothing but 30% Mpulse heat reduction, no range or duration or anything like the Wubberbolts or what-have-you, and yet that 30% heat reduction’s proven to be (arguably) completely broken in practice because it translates into a direct, incontrovertible increase in the amount of sustained DPS the ‘Mech can put out.

In the hands of a bad pilot who misses half his shots, that increase likely doesn’t matter as much, and that guy might well prefer duration decreases instead to help his shoddy aim and improve his own damage output more than heat reduction does. In the hands of a really good pilot who hits what he shoots at already…well, duration decreases don’t help him nearly as much as an extra alpha or two before he’s riding the red.

And neither of those compares to getting three alphas out there in the space of time your enemy gets two. As the Gridiron and the Hugginz prove.

Well, beam reduction does also let you start your cooldown sooner, but again, a 30% reduction on a 1 second beam, vs the effect of damage downrange of the 30% reduction on it's 3 second cooldown.......Plus side, easier to land all damage on target, and hopefully get twisting again.

So there is a tradeoff. But often, it's not an equal trade off. And the degree of that tradeoff can vary from mech to mech and weapon to weapon.

Fact is the Grid Iron can do the same roles as the 4G and 4H at about 95% effectiveness, whereas neither of those other 2 can do each others role, let alone that of the GI with anywhere near the same degree of efficacy.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Deathlike]

1453 R, on 26 March 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

I’m not sure what this is from? But it’s actually an interesting point of discussion.

Out of all the quirks/quirk types available in the game, only two really result in MOAR DAMAGE – heat reduction (more heat efficient, more shots taken before overheat, ergo MOAR DAMAGE), and refire rate (kina self explanatory). Beam duration reduction, increased range, increased projectile velocity, all the other various and sundry quirk types are indirect damage buffs if they’re damage buffs at all. Some of them are indeed very useful, PPC velocity quirks being the usual standout example, but I feel as if a 30% beam reduction quirk, or a 30% projectile velocity quirk, isn’t going to be as valuable as a 30% refire quirk or a 30% heat quirk because the former two don’t actually let you do anything the ‘Mech couldn’t do normally.

They make it easier to land shots and deal (full) damage, sometimes they improve defensive abilities in that beam reduction improves twisting times, but a ‘Mech with a 30% velocity quirk is incapable of matching the DPS of the same ‘Mech with a 30% refire quirk for the same weapon, while the guy with the refire quirk CAN, in fact, match the velocity quirk guy’s accuracy with some practice and gumption. Same thing for heat reduction quirks – there’s no way for player skill to compensate for a shot generating 30% less heat and thus leaving more room beneath the heat ceiling for more shots, while player skill CAN compensate for slow projectiles, long burn times, or other ‘convenience’-type quirks.

There’s a reason those two quirk types tend to be what make or break a ‘Mech’s quirks list. The FS9-S alone proves that heat reduction quirks are incredibly valuable – it gets nothing but 30% Mpulse heat reduction, no range or duration or anything like the Wubberbolts or what-have-you, and yet that 30% heat reduction’s proven to be (arguably) completely broken in practice because it translates into a direct, incontrovertible increase in the amount of sustained DPS the ‘Mech can put out.

In the hands of a bad pilot who misses half his shots, that increase likely doesn’t matter as much, and that guy might well prefer duration decreases instead to help his shoddy aim and improve his own damage output more than heat reduction does. In the hands of a really good pilot who hits what he shoots at already…well, duration decreases don’t help him nearly as much as an extra alpha or two before he’s riding the red.

And neither of those compares to getting three alphas out there in the space of time your enemy gets two. As the Gridiron and the Hugginz prove.

You're not incorrect there. That's pretty much the difference.

The thing is, the Gauss Rifle doesn't entirely behave in a pro-DPS usage though.

It's very similar to the dakka-Dragons in the sense where if you are uncontested... minimally move (outside of getting in position to fire), and are allowed to stare at your targets w/o consequence...the DPS argument holds merit.

The problem is that for most Gauss builds, including the Gauss Jager is that once you are being challenged, you don't have the same opportunity to just keep firing that weapon in the same way... even though heat is actually not a factor in all of this... the charging aspect reduces the ability to fire at will so quickly like the AC20 would.

The situational aspect on how the DPS is applied is a factor to the conversation...

Edited by Deathlike, 26 March 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

That's called using intentional hyperbole to make a point.

Using any sort of hyperbole fails to make any sort of point as it is a fallacy.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

That's called using intentional hyperbole to make a point.

Point is, 10% here, 10% there, is not the as 10% elsewhere. Again, the range and velocity is nice. But it's near as devastating as the same bonuses added to cooldown. Same reason that adding 40% velocity boost to a PPC is overall better than adding 20% velocity and 20% range, because it specializes that weapon even more.

Simply put, just because it is a 25% "boost" to that velocity, doesn't make it equal to what 25% boost to the cooldown does for the weapon.

I'm sure the 4G would be JUST as popular if it had a 50% velocity boost but nor Cooldown boost. It's the same % affecting the same system, after all.

Heck, the %s aren't even created equal, because 25% more velocity on an ac10 is a heck of a lot different from 25% velocity on an ac20.

The point being, the amount of "better" the 4G has over the GI with an ac20, is relatively minor. The single most effective quirk is the same on both. Yet , how effective is the 4G if I slap a Gauss on it? I mean, hey, I get a 12.5% velocity boost after all......

Aka, the quirks are very lopsided in favor of the Paywall Model. It is more versatile, and more specialized, all at once.

You first state that the differences between a velocity boost difference between the AC10 and AC20 are rather large, then go on to state that the differences between the 4G and GI when it comes to AC20s is minor? Seems a little odd don't you think, I understand perfectly that there is a difference even between the same sort of quirk depending on the weapon it is oriented towards. An laser duration quirk is more valuable to an ERLL mech than it is to a Small Pulse mech even if the quirk is the same. An AC20 is slow and any velocity boost makes it easier to hit any mech that moves a decent speed, and considering it is one of the slowest (if not the slowest) outside of missiles, any boost is significant.

Hell, lets take you back to the MW4:Mercs days where lasers dominated because they were easier to use than 2000m/s weapons, and those were the slowest of the weapons. Lasers were incredibly inefficient but because they were easy to use, they were actually the best. The point I'm trying to make is essentially, stop underestimating the velocity quirks for the AC20 and honestly pick a different mech to champion your crusade against bad quirks because the GI and 4G are almost equal in terms of usefulness.

As for paywall model, things were slighted towards that a long time ago, you just never paid attention to it. After all, one of the best Stalkers up until quirks was the Misery, now the 4N has sort of surpassed it but not by much. I've been against paywalled heroes since the beginning so not much I can really say that I havn't said a thousand times before.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 March 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Void Angel]

1453 R, on 26 March 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

I’m not sure what this is from? But it’s actually an interesting point of discussion.
[redacted for page length]

Well Laser, while no other quirks actually increase your theoretical max/sustained dps, velocity increases for ballistics - particularly slow ballistics like the AC/20 - do make a difference in the actual effectiveness of the 'mech. Same goes for beam duration. Are they as useful as what might be termed "dps quirks?" No! But you can't evaluate 'mechs realistically if you treat them as though they are standing on a firing range trading shots in the open. Beam duration makes a big difference when trying to place damage on one spot with lasers, for example - so a skilled user will have better time to kill even though he's not doing more dps. The nuances matter: in the case of the Firestarter, the heat reduction is brutal not only because it increases the sustained dps of the 'mech, but because it allows it to alpha strike more often before needing to break contact and cool down. Range is another quirk that increases the effective damage of the 'mech by letting you do full damage out to longer distances. This is an advantage that you don't really appreciate until you start trading fire with the Clans and realize that their Large Pulse Lasers will still deal about half damage outside the maximum range of an un-quirked AC/20.

So the Hunchback 4G is clearly superior to the Grid Iron if you put an AC/20 into it - the absurd claim BS just made, that 25% range and 25% projectile speed only account for a 5% difference in performance is an extraordinary claim requiring evidence he probably can't have, and in any case has not provided. Instead, he just hand-waved away the significance of data that doesn't support his thesis, after misrepresenting my position in the first place - if indeed he understood it. Remember, I'm not saying that the Grid Iron isn't overquirked - I've actually agreed that it probably is - but rather that the numbers make sense if you look at them on paper, so there's no reason to wax breathless about "pay to win" strategies, particularly in a 'mech that still isn't outperforming the Stormcrow at higher Elo.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 March 2015 - 06:04 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

So yeah, velocity good. But in a 4G, CQB brawler, I cannot, in all honesty say being able to have a 5% (heck I'll be nice to Ulti and give it a 10% boost) at mid to long range

I did all the math in this thread already.

400m is the new 300m for the 4G.

Which is funny really, because the 4H has an inferior ballistic (AC 10).

Only gets 20% range vs. the 4Gs +25%.

Only gets 20% cooldown vs. the 4Gs +25%.

Gets 0% Velocity increase vs. the 4Gs +25%


So for 2 extra tons, the 4G ends up with basically a superior version of the 4Hs AC 10.


Why isn't this thread about that as well?

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

would be more valuable than GI grade RoF where I would be fring my 20 pt PP-FLD every 1.3 seconds.

THAT is what the difference in quirks translates too.

You're firing the AC 20 at faster recharge than most other mechs can fire their AC 10s.


You're OK with that though?



I'm sorry Bishop, this just feels like another case where it seems like you feel that your preferred mech got slighted because "50%" is a bigger number than "25%".

It doesn't matter how many of us tell you we think the other quirks have value, because you have an agenda here and you are not actually interested in a discussion.

This thread is really just to highlight what you want.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 March 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

That's called using intentional hyperbole to make a point.

Point is, 10% here, 10% there, is not the as 10% elsewhere. Again, the range and velocity is nice. But it's near as devastating as the same bonuses added to cooldown. Same reason that adding 40% velocity boost to a PPC is overall better than adding 20% velocity and 20% range, because it specializes that weapon even more.

Simply put, just because it is a 25% "boost" to that velocity, doesn't make it equal to what 25% boost to the cooldown does for the weapon.

I'm sure the 4G would be JUST as popular if it had a 50% velocity boost but nor Cooldown boost. It's the same % affecting the same system, after all.

Heck, the %s aren't even created equal, because 25% more velocity on an ac10 is a heck of a lot different from 25% velocity on an ac20.

The point being, the amount of "better" the 4G has over the GI with an ac20, is relatively minor. The single most effective quirk is the same on both. Yet , how effective is the 4G if I slap a Gauss on it? I mean, hey, I get a 12.5% velocity boost after all......

Aka, the quirks are very lopsided in favor of the Paywall Model. It is more versatile, and more specialized, all at once.

Just because you don't think the velocity boost on the AC20 is important doesn't make it true. It is QUITE significant. Anyone that uses AC20s can tell the difference.

[Bishop Steiner]

Void Angel, on 26 March 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Well Laser, while no other quirks actually increase your theoretical max/sustained dps, velocity increases for ballistics - particularly slow ballistics like the AC/20 - do make a difference in the actual effectiveness of the 'mech. Same goes for beam duration. Are they as useful as what might be termed "dps quirks?" No! But you can't evaluate 'mechs realistically if you treat them as though they are standing on a firing range trading shots in the open. Beam duration makes a big difference when trying to place damage on one spot with lasers, for example - so a skilled user will have better time to kill even though he's not doing more dps. The nuances matter: in the case of the Firestarter, the heat reduction is brutal not only because it increases the sustained dps of the 'mech, but because it allows it to alpha strike more often before needing to break contact and cool down. Range is another quirk that increases the effective damage of the 'mech by letting you do full damage out to longer distances. This is an advantage that you don't really appreciate until you start trading fire with the Clans and realize that their Large Pulse Lasers will still deal about half damage outside the maximum range of an un-quirked AC/20.

So the Hunchback 4G is clearly superior to the Grid Iron if you put an AC/20 into it - the absurd claim BS just made, that 25% range and 25% projectile speed only account for a 5% difference in performance is an extraordinary claim requiring evidence he probably can't have, and in any case has not provided. Instead, he just hand-waved away the significance of data that doesn't support his thesis, after misrepresenting my position in the first place - if indeed he understood it. Remember, I'm not saying that the Grid Iron isn't overquirked - I've actually agreed that it probably is - but rather that the numbers make sense if you look at them on paper, so there's no reason to wax breathless about "pay to win" strategies, particularly in a 'mech that still isn't outperforming the Stormcrow at higher Elo.

Yes, absurd. Identical game model, identical hitboxes, payload, speed, heatsinks. Same weapons and RoF.

But now you want to make the absurd claim that the what, 25% boost in velocity and range will make it what...25% more effective than the GI in the same role.

Because of course, on small portion of the quirks makes up a large percentage of the total package. Am I claiming 5% as gospel? No. Am I saying, that the difference between the 2, with identical loadouts is VERY MINOR. Yes.

And considerably smaller than if you try to mount the same Gauss Rifle GI build on both mechs.

Oh well. Flame shield still holding. And no, so far the number don't hold up on paper, unless you hold to that absurd notion that a percentile point is actually equal across quirks. Which is patently is not.

In fact, I am very certain that the majority of players in game, could run the ac20 loadout on either, and not tell the difference, if you didn't tell them they were in different mechs, whereas if you run the same Gauss/ Mpl loadouts in the two mechs, only the worst of the underhive would not be able to notice.

Fate 6, on 26 March 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Just because you don't think the velocity boost on the AC20 is important doesn't make it true. It is QUITE significant. Anyone that uses AC20s can tell the difference.

I have not said it's NOT important. So let's remove that blatant fallacy right now. I have said that the 25% velocity boost on an ac20 is much more situational, and LESS critical than the same 25% on cooldown.
And even that is ONE smnall aspect of a much more detailed point and post.

But hey, why not skip over what's actually been said, and ignore the parts that conveniently don't fit.

My 4G does what it does rather well. But no, it's not remotely odd that the GI does what the 4G does nearly as well, along with what the 4H does, while being also EVEN more capable of being super specialized in it's own role.

Hell, I named mine MacGuyver for a reason.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 06:18 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry Bishop, this just feels like another case where it seems like you feel that your preferred mech got slighted because "50%" is a bigger number than "25%".

It doesn't matter how many of us tell you we think the other quirks have value, because you have an agenda here and you are not actually interested in a discussion.

This thread is really just to highlight what you want.

Well gee, now if that was the case, I'd be arguing to boost my pet mechs number,s now wouldn't I?

But I see you have not, because you cannot refute, that the GI does what the 4H and 4G does nearly as well, whereas neither can come close to doing the GIss build as effectively. Unless of course your mighty velocity boost is of course, that game breaking.

But hey, yes, when you cannot refute, make it personal. Your learned well from Roland.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Well gee, now if that was the case, I'd be arguing to boost my pet mechs number,s now wouldn't I?

But I see you have not, because you cannot refute, that the GI does what the 4H and 4G does nearly as well, whereas neither can come close to doing the GIss build as effectively. Unless of course your mighty velocity boost is of course, that game breaking.

But hey, yes, when you cannot refute, make it personal. Your learned well from Roland.

I'm calling it like I see it.


Because apparently all these posts are just "cherry picking":

WM Quicksilver, on 24 March 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

You undersell that range + velocity improvement

luxebo, on 24 March 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Relook at the quirks. 4G gets 25% velocity, range, AND cooldown while GI gets 50% cooldown ONLY.

Michael Abt, on 24 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

Have to disagree on this one, Bishop. The AC20 velocity quirk is the most underrated yet so important quirk the 4G has to offer.

Chuck YeaGurr, on 24 March 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

The range and velocity quirks on top of the cooldown are just as important to the ac20 as the cooldown total for the GI guass. I just checked my stats and the G is slightly higher in both wins and KTD.

Ultimatum X, on 24 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

The 4G will still overall be better with an AC 20, it has significant velocity (+25%) boosting the projectile to a bit over 800m/s, which coupled with the added range (+25%, I think 364m with T5 module) means you can start utilizing that AC 20 at further ranges for more effective damage with less drop off and better accuracy.

DarthRevis, on 26 March 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

That AC20 Shell FLIES outta that hunch! Its super fast , most the time peeps cannot torso twist away faster then the shell travels through the air. (other then SCRs but thats a Hitbox discussion)

Deathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

It's more important than you're giving credit for honestly. It's more like a 10-25% difference given the numbers. For increased velocity, the adjustment required to fire the AC20 to hit your target is a bit less, and that becomes more of a twitch-like/reaction factor.

Void Angel, on 26 March 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

Compare the AC/20 quirks from the Hunchback 4G: sure, you have half the cooldown bonus compared to the Grid Iron - but you also have 25% increased range, plus 25% increased velocity! That's 75% total quirks; they're just split up.

Fate 6, on 26 March 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Just because you don't think the velocity boost on the AC20 is important doesn't make it true. It is QUITE significant. Anyone that uses AC20s can tell the difference.

No hyperbole, no flames, just people basically disagreeing with you.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 March 2015 - 06:24 PM.

[Void Angel]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Yes, absurd. Identical game model, identical hitboxes, payload, speed, heatsinks. Same weapons and RoF.

But now you want to make the absurd claim that the what, 25% boost in velocity and range will make it what...25% more effective than the GI in the same role.

Pretending I'm making a claim I never made because it would be easy for you to knock down is called a Straw Man by those of us who studied logic and the like - in layman's terms, you are lying.

[Bishop Steiner]

Void Angel, on 26 March 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

Pretending I'm making a claim I never made because it would be easy for you to knock down is called a Straw Man by those of us who studied logic and the like - in layman's terms, you are lying.

Actually, I am pretty sure I want to know what percent of the total combat effectiveness you think that 25% velocity boost actually compromises. Please enlighten me.

Obviously it must be HUGE, based on your counter argument.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Actually, I am pretty sure I want to know what percent of the total combat effectiveness you think that 25% velocity boost actually compromises. Please enlighten me.

Obviously it must be HUGE, based on your counter argument.

That's you, evading him for calling you out on your strawman.

Come on Bishop, we're all willing to discuss. You can at least do us the courtesy of honest discourse.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm calling it like I see it.


Because apparently all these posts are just "cherry picking":

Yup. Because all post on one single aspect of the total package, and ignore the rest of the picture. THAT is called cherry picking. At least I have acknowledged your argument, even if I severely disagree with your opinion of how critical it is to the total picture. Something that you have pretty categorically avoided doing with every other salient point of this subject.

Keep on picking though. BTW, I prefer rainier cherries.

Ultimatum X, on 26 March 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

That's you, evading him for calling you out on your strawman.

Come on Bishop, we're all willing to discuss. You can at least do us the courtesy of honest discourse.

No that is not evading. I made a point, that the percentage of the total picture made up by the velocity boost is SMALL. Void angle called me out on it. So I am calling him out on it and want to know just how massive a percent of the picture that velocity boost is.

So how about YOU stop evading?

You still have not even acknowledged or refuted my point about the efficiencies between the 3 ballistic Hunchbacks.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 06:30 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Yup. Because all post on one single aspect of the total package, and ignore the rest of the picture. THAT is called cherry picking.

We are all stating we think the total package of

4G with AC 20
+25% CD
+25% range increase
+25% velocity improvement

is better than the GI using an AC 20 with

+25% CD



And we are the ones who are cherry picking?



"Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias.^[1][2] Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally. This fallacy is a major problem in public debate.^[3]"



We are not the ones who are cherry picking.

[Bishop Steiner]

You know what? On second thought? Why bother? You're just going to talk in circles more. I could have a more legitimate "debate" with a brick wall then with what you have presented thus far.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

You know what? On second thought? Why bother? You're just going to talk in circles more. I could have a more legitimate "debate" with a brick wall then with what you have presented thus far.

OK dude.


When you are ready to have an honest discussion, devoid of logical fallacies and willing to listen to people who disagree with you - I'll still be around, prepared to have that conversation.