32 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 26 March 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

UAC/2 at least allows for a little bit more tickling when you have the opportunity, or you can single-fire when you don't want to jam. For snipzors warz you're better off with lazor vomit, even the CLPL probably does way more damage at 900m than the CAC/2 does.

Of course, both are poop at the end of the day, so...

Yeah, they're both garbage weapons; you're just choosing between the ability to doubletap and chance losing the closest thing to an advantage an AC2 has with a jam (that is, long range suppression, which is only really useful against some poorer players, but whatever) and slightly longer range.

Quote

In those situations where you are near the top of the heat bar, you can like choose to, like, not double tap or shoot at the full rate. So you still get that optional heat-saving mode when you want to use it, and you get faster damage output when your heat bar permits it. There's no toggle button that forces the gun to go full auto all the time.

No, but the AC10 firing at full auto generates less heat than the UAC10 does. You'd have to fire the UAC10 far slower than the AC10 fires in order to generate the same heat. The AC10 pushes 10 damage downrange for 2 heat, the UAC10 pushes 10 damage downrange for 3 heat.

Edited by Wintersdark, 26 March 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 26 March 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

No, but the AC10 firing at full auto generates less heat than the UAC10 does. You'd have to fire the UAC10 far slower than the AC10 fires in order to generate the same heat.

Unless you're firing multiple guns simultaneously, and are like borderline on the very top of the heat bar, that 2.0 heat per burst isn't really going to matter much over 3.0 heat per burst. If you're trying to conserve heat, you're probably not firing all of your guns anyways, so that undermines that explanation...

Edited by FupDup, 26 March 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[crustydog]

A reliable, heavy hitting ballistic weapon, even if it is burst, and even if lower DPS, is still an important element to effective brawling, to offset the heat generation of Clan lasers especially, the whole point is to have a low heat, heavy weapon that will fire - not a weapon that jams, or a weapon that sprays BB's everywhere like a shotgun. It matters less that the weapon is inferior in other areas - though I fail to understand the logic as to why that should be so.... Clanners can't make old tech cannons? The tech is thousands of years old. Clanners never lost any tech.

Anyways - I need something to shoot while the mech is hot when other mechs are charging about... Cannons are supposed to fill that role. Standard Autocannons, though inferior to their more advanced cousins, need to be reliable. Reliability in tight situations is the entire point of carrying such a weapon... and the reason I will spend more tons for less damage.

The standard autocannon is the AK47 of MWO.

"To be clear, you're saying they're not firing, or not firing complete bursts - but NOT that they are jamming like (clan) Ultra Autocannons (which also brings up a "WEAPON JAMMED" notification and turns the cooldown bar red), correct? "

Thinking about it - I have two Timberwolves equipped with this weapon. The problem occurs on both of them. Specifically, sometimes the weapon does not fire at all. Sometimes it only fires one round or a partial burst. Sometimes it is working fine. At no time does the weapon jam notification ever show up. This problem only ever shows up in the heat of battle, (I have no reason to discharge ammo if not in the heat of battle.) I haven't tested it outside of actual combat.

Furthermore, the weapon can misfire, and then later on fires normally again.

I've not tried any other Clan cannons at this time.

I have never seen this behavior with my IS Autocannons. They always fire.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 26 March 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

Unless you're firing multiple guns simultaneously, and are like borderline on the very top of the heat bar, that 2.0 heat per burst isn't really going to matter much over 3.0 heat per burst. If you're trying to conserve heat, you're probably not firing all of your guns anyways, so that undermines that explanation...

But if you've been firing a lot of various guns (and this comes into play on a Direwolf basically) the CAC10 can allow a decent projection of damage downrange while eating less heat, allowing your other, less crappy weapons (read: your lasers) more heatcap to do their damage.

Of course, using a Gauss rifle instead of any type of AC10 would be far superior, but that's not the point

crustydog, on 26 March 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Thinking about it - I have two Timberwolves equipped with this weapon. The problem occurs on both of them. Specifically, sometimes the weapon does not fire at all. Sometimes it only fires one round or a partial burst. Sometimes it is working fine. At no time does the weapon jam notification ever show up. This problem only ever shows up in the heat of battle, (I have no reason to discharge ammo if not in the heat of battle.) I haven't tested it outside of actual combat.

Furthermore, the weapon can misfire, and then later on fires normally again.

I've not tried any other Clan cannons at this time.

I have never seen this behavior with my IS Autocannons. They always fire.

To be fair, clan ultra autocannons are perfectly reliable too. They only can jam if you double tap the fire button - hold it down, they never jam.


But anyways, with regards to the CAC10 on a timberwolf, I'll try that myself tonight, with a pair. Does this happen to you in the training grounds? Or only in live matches?

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 26 March 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

But if you've been firing a lot of various guns (and this comes into play on a Direwolf basically) the CAC10 can allow a decent projection of damage downrange while eating less heat, allowing your other, less crappy weapons (read: your lasers) more heatcap to do their damage.

Of course, using a Gauss rifle instead of any type of AC10 would be far superior, but that's not the point

Ignoring Goose Waffles, there's still the classic and compie-approved 6 UAC/5 for low heat uberdakka... Or maybe drop down to 4-5 UAC/5 and pack some pewpew for backup, whatever floats ur boat.

The CUAC/5 is probably the closest thing to a "sweet spot" that Clan ACs have right now...

[crustydog]

"But anyways, with regards to the CAC10 on a timberwolf, I'll try that myself tonight, with a pair. Does this happen to you in the training grounds? Or only in live matches?"

I've not tried it in the training grounds - but I have seen this at least a dozen times in live matches of all flavor.

[Koniving]

Johnny Z, on 26 March 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

Is it true Clan auto cannons take up less space, have longer range, weigh less and do more damage? I am not sure about the damage part. Someone said they do the same damage, but I find that hard to believe since all Clan weapons do more damage.

Clan ACs do the same damage (though UACs get the 'double tap' functionality even if the weapons can jam at partial damage).
The AC/2 fires twice for 1 damage per bullet. AC/5 fires 3 times for 1.67 (1 2/3rds) damage per shot. AC/10 fires 4 times for 2.5 damage per shot. AC/20 fires 5 times for 4 damage per shot. Each AC can also have its bullets accelerated with enhanced crit chances by sucking up more weight with Targeting Computers. Not nearly as good as IS quirks, but it does help and works with any Clan mech that can support the weight of 1 to 8 tons depending on which computer.

They are -- for the larger ACs, slightly lighter and fewer slots. However, any AC (or PPC) of any type placed into an arm automatically removes the lower arm actuator, locking horizontal movement (if on just one arm then reduces it to 10 degrees range).

Their ranges are somewhat better, but unless you enhance the speed of the rounds you won't hit anything.
By the cooldown time being exactly the same -- and MWO's method of "cooldown doesn't start until gun is finished", it takes longer for all Clan ACs to fire again than it would for unquirked IS ACs to do the same.

Range differences:
IS AC/2: 720 meters.
Clan AC/2: 900 meters.
Clan UAC/2: 810 meters.
Identical heat.

IS AC/5: 620 meters.
Clan AC/5: 720 meters.
Clan UAC/5: 630 meters.
Identical heat.

IS AC/10: 450 meters.
Clan AC/10: 540 meters.
Clan UAC/10: 540 meters.
Clan AC/10 has lower heat. (Actually Clan AC/UAC/LBX have canonical heat, Clan LBX/10 alt fire aka AC/10 generates less heat than normal IS AC/10s and Clan UAC/10s).

IS AC/20: 270 meters.
Clan AC/20: 360 meters.
Clan UAC/20: 360 meters.
Clan UAC/20 has higher heat. (Actually both Clan AC/LBX, and UAC/20 have canonical heat, IS AC/20 is just colder than it should be).

So there.
For all Clan ACs (not the LBX), there's also as many chances to get crits to triple crits against equipment through depleted armor, which is why Clan ACs (UACs as well) tend to wipe out your weapons without destroying your body parts much easier than most IS weapons can. Admittedly those crits also come out to 1 to 3 times the damage of each bullet's actual damage value, rather than the firing rate damage value.

Meaning if one of my 3 CAC/5 rounds from a single firing nets a triple crit, you'll suffer 1.67 * 3 (5 damage) to your IS AC/10 (out of 10). The second might have net a single crit (1.67) and the third might not have crit at all (meaning in total that was 6.67 damage to your weapon, where if a single IS AC/5 hit... it'd have a single crit roll. Either it did nothing, a single crit for 5, an ultra rare double crit for 10, or a nearly impossible you must have rigged the dice triple crit for 15).

So yeah.

There ya go.

Far as reasons to use the ACs or LBX over UACs.. The lighter calibers get more range. The heavier calibers are colder and none of them will jam when you spam them.

Don't know about you, but jamming an Ultra 20 after doing just 4 damage really sucks.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 26 March 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

For all Clan ACs (not the LBX), there's also as many chances to get crits to triple crits against equipment through depleted armor, which is why Clan ACs (UACs as well) tend to wipe out your weapons without destroying your body parts much easier than most IS weapons can. Admittedly those crits also come out to 1 to 3 times the damage of each bullet's actual damage value, rather than the firing rate damage value.

Meaning if one of my 3 CAC/5 rounds from a single firing nets a triple crit, you'll suffer 1.67 * 3 (5 damage) to your IS AC/10 (out of 10). The second might have net a single crit (1.67) and the third might not have crit at all (meaning in total that was 6.67 damage to your weapon, where if a single IS AC/5 hit... it'd have a single crit roll. Either it did nothing, a single crit for 5, an ultra rare double crit for 10, or a nearly impossible you must have rigged the dice triple crit for 15).

So yeah.

There ya go.

Far as reasons to use the ACs or LBX over UACs.. The lighter calibers get more range. The heavier calibers are colder and none of them will jam when you spam them.

Don't know about you, but jamming an Ultra 20 after doing just 4 damage really sucks.

Re: Crits:

IS AC's are better at destroying items than Clan AC's. High damage shells break things faster, because of randomization.

Getting more chances at the crit roll is irrelevant - three 1.67 damage rolls or one 5 damage roll are functionally identical for overall crit damage, as the crit damage is based on bullet damage. However, larger damage hits (such as from single-shell IS AC's) can one-shot equipment (AC20, AC10, etc) or two shot (AC5), whereas the Clan AC's are doing small bits of damage. As crit damage can hit internal systems like gyros, engines, actuators and such (totally uselessly), this means most everything is "padded" to some degree. Lots of little crit rolls then tend to spread damage out destroying fewer components, whereas single large crits just break items left and right.

So, in short, no: Clan autocannons are absolutely not better at destroying equipment than IS autocannons.

Also, the 1x 2x and 3x crits aren't single/double/triple damage, but separate hits - a 3x AC5 crit doesn't do 15 damage to one component, it does 5 damage rolled three times on the chart. That CAN hit one component three times, but it could also do 5 damage to each of three components.

Basically, lots of small hits tend to do "smooth" crit damage, wearing down everything, while large hits tend to pop stuff.

Also, large hits do full crit damage so long as any damage penetrates armor: An IS AC10 hitting a section with 9.9 armor remaining will still to up to 3 10 point crits: it could destroy up to three separate weapons in one hit, even though that section had armor.

If you do multiple small hits, then only the hits that actually penetrate armor can crit: less crit damage from the get go.

[Koniving]

Wintersdark, on 26 March 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Your scenario assumes that the IS ACs can't fail to hit a weakened component or miss entirely.

Though yes I'm well aware IS ACs are seriously overpowered.
Especially when compared 1 to 1 without quirks or equipment.
Add quirks and IS ACs are obscenely god-mode.

However, combine a level 4 Targeting Computer or greater with ACs, and you'll find Clan ACs to be on part with LBX for crit finding.

More frequent crit rolls might be irrelevant to component damage on the 1:1 scale or to the short term, but every single crit produces 15% of that crit damage as extra damage to the structure. Out of four shots you get a single crit for 5 damage to net 0.75 extra damage on that one hit. Out of four trigger pulls, when 8 out of 12 shots net single crits I've netted an additional 2.008 damage from my shots.

The targeting computer IV takes up 4 tons and 4 slots, which is perfectly acceptable considering the reduced tonnage I have for four ACs versus what an IS mech would have. My crit chances are increased an additional 10.25%, and my bullets for my CAC/5s jump from a speed of 1,150 meters per second to 1270.75 meters per second in addition to all the other TC benefits.

So while IS ACs are undoubtedly excessively overpowered,

Spoiler

(compared to ALL MWO weapon systems, what other weapon in MWO can achieve more than 38 times their TT damage in 10 seconds? [specifically, AC/2s with elites and quirks, though this was actually possible pre ghost heat with the original AC/2 firing rates])

Clan ACs can compete if you shove on enough equipment to rival what an IS mech would be hauling.

[627]

I like how you all start debating the usefulness of clan ACs and derailing the thread even further and no one has the 10minutes to check if his standard clan ACs jam, too.



This is not about "why use them", this is about "is there a bug with c-ACs or is it me?"

Edited by 627, 26 March 2015 - 10:40 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think its more a sound issue. for some reason each shot in a salvo plays the same sound effect, they overlap and flood available sound channels or something like that. and after 2 shots they kinda stop making noise for abit. but the shots still hit.

the weapons are generally buggy. they do have one small advantage in the heat department. they run cooler and are somewhat useful in high heat situations than the ultra equivalent. its nice to have a weapon you can use when redlining.

that said i bought one of every clan ac and have come to the conclusion that they are a waste of money. you are better off with an lb. implement ammo types and get rid of the clan acs (and give me an equivalent sized ultra or lb).

[Wintersdark]

627, on 26 March 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

I like how you all start debating the usefulness of clan ACs and derailing the thread even further and no one has the 10minutes to check if his standard clan ACs jam, too.



This is not about "why use them", this is about "is there a bug with c-ACs or is it me?"

I said I'd check, and did a couple drops last night. I had no problems, but didn't have time to test conclusively so I haven't posted results yet. Some sound issues if you're firing many ac's as the above poster notes, but they seem to fire fine. I'm going to pack 4 onto my DWF and check after work.

[Andi Nagasia]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

I said I'd check, and did a couple drops last night. I had no problems, but didn't have time to test conclusively so I haven't posted results yet. Some sound issues if you're firing many ac's as the above poster notes, but they seem to fire fine. I'm going to pack 4 onto my DWF and check after work.

Checked om my DWF seemed fine, what map where you on? and where on that Map?