16 replies to this topic

[Knyx]

So with many of the clan perks they added having very little impact and kind of take away from the whole design of using adaptable omni-mech platforms I have some suggestions below that may make them more valuable. I would like to note that even though clan weapons, more specifically lasers, are better then their IS counterparts *on paper*, when applied to IS variants with applicable quirks they rise from being only slightly sub par (even though the math clearly shows better burst damage already for IS lasers) to superior then clan lasers by a large margin. When you take into account already superior ballistic weapons and then apply them to variants with applicable quirks... they are blatantly overpowered. All of this opposite of what these forums would have people believe.



Onto the suggestions...


Remove all current weapon based quirks from all clan mechs.
Give every clan mech intuitive adaptable quirks that depend on the weapon allocated in the hard point.

As an example of what I mean by this. Let's say you are building a laser vomit kind of Hellbringer, or rather a mix of C-LPL and ERMeds. Let's say you equip that C-LPL in a side torso, as soon as you do a quirk is added that, just as an example, reduces C-LPL duration and heat generation by 8%.

Another example, is lets say you equip that gauss rifle in the arm of that Dire Wolf. As soon as you put it in the slot a quirk is added reducing gauss rifle cooldown.

Etc etc.


I would also like to see any clan mech that does not have access too Endo and FF, be give the option to purchase and equip it, but just cause them to have heavier drawbacks then say if an IS counterpart purchases and equips the armor/structure upgrade.


Thanks for reading.

[Rhaythe]

I really can't see this idea doing much other than reducing time-to-kill even further. The quirks are meant to give underperforming mechs a boost while equipping specialized weapon systems. It's not meant to give across-the-board boosts. Modules do that.

[FupDup]

The problem with quirks that change to suit the weapon you mount is that there would be no reason to mount non-optimal weapons. Quirking less popular guns can give at least some modicum of motivation to use them... Why wouldn't I just slap LPL on everything? I already do even without quirks...

It also just reduces flavor in general, because every Clan mech would have the same quirks (especially due to the copy-and-paste ERML/LPL/Gauss/etc. Clan meta). Having pre-set quirks means that your mech has a clearly defined role to work around, rather than just being Gunbag A and Gunbag B.


The current system of quirks by Omnipod doesn't ruin the point of Omnis at all, because you can still mix-and-match your pods to create your ideal Mister Potatohead custom gundam build. So if you don't want the arm with ERPPC quirks, you can slide in the arm that has SRM buffs instead.


The real problems with the current Omni quirk system are as follows:

1. The values are weaksauce in many cases (lol 1% beam duration)
2. The specific choices for the type of quirks can be pretty derpy (ERPPC cooldown on a Puma? Whyyyyyyyyyy)

Edited by FupDup, 27 March 2015 - 05:42 AM.

[FupDup]

Here's an example of an attempt at Puma quirks that I made:

Spoiler

Fuddy Duddy said:

All right, I'm going to actually take some time and churn out some Puma quirks that could actually help the little gundam be more effective and worthwhile. I'm going to run through each variant one at a time and try to think up some quirks that fulfill these criterion:

• Are useful
  
• Inspired by the stock loadout (i.e. if it comes with ERPPCs, it's gonna get more effective ERPPCs)...
  
• ...But with a little bit of leeway here and there for flexability
  
• Are possible within the current implementation of quirks (work with what we've got)
  
• Help the mech compensate for some of its innate weaknesses

Also note that the values I choose below may seem either conservative or maybe even too generous in some instances. This is mostly because my brain is derpy and it's hard for me to fully balance everything just on paper. Take these values with a grain of salt, what's important is the overall idea and the general estimation of the values (not exact values).

Let’s get started…

ADR-PRIME

Spoiler

Stock loadout for inspiration: ADR-PRIME

Quirks:
ADR-Prime Center Torso: +6 Internal Structure, +5% ERPPC Velocity, +5% Ballistic Velocity
Logic: The Adder's center torso hitbox pokes out further than the sides and arms, which makes it a bit of a bullet magnet. This helps with that.

The velocity buffs help distinguish this variant as being the most accurate with projectile-based weaponry.


ADR-Prime Left Leg: +12 Internal Structure, +12.5% Acceleration, +12.5% Deceleration
Logic: This variant's frontloaded guns are used best with a peak-and-hide playstyle, which differs from laser puking. These quirks help the little guy be a better hill/corner humper.

The leg internal health boost is already in effect.


ADR-Prime Right Leg: +12 Internal Structure, +12.5% Acceleration, +12.5% Deceleration
Logic: This variant's frontloaded guns are used best with a peak-and-hide playstyle, which differs from laser puking. These quirks help the little guy be a better hill/corner humper.

The leg internal health boost is already in effect.


ADR-Prime Left Arm: + 7.5% ERPPC Velocity, -7.5% ERPPC Heat, +7.5% Torso Twist Rate
Logic: These are the main and only guns of the stock Prime. Pretty straightforward.

The torso twist agility helps compensate for the Prime lacking lower arm actuators.


ADR-Prime Right Arm: +7.5% ERPPC Velocity, -7.5% ERPPC Heat, +7.5% Torso Twist Rate
Logic: These are the main and only guns of the stock Prime. Pretty straightforward.

The torso twist agility helps compensate for the Prime lacking lower arm actuators.


ADR-Prime Left Torso: -5% Energy Heat, +10% Heat Dissipation Rate
Logic: This location contains an additional Double Heatsink compared to the base configuration. DHS improve your heat management. So, this location's quirks help improve your heat efficiency.


ADR-Prime Right Torso: +25% ERPPC Velocity, +25% Ballistic Velocity, -15% Laser Duration
Logic: This location comes equipped stock with a Targeting Computer. This equipment improves your accuracy for direct-fire weapons. These quirks make ballistics and energy more accurate.

ADR-A

Spoiler

Stock loadout for inspiration: ADR-A

Quirks:
ADR-A Center Torso: +6 Internal Structure, -5% Missile Spread, +5% Missile Cooldown
Logic: The Adder's center torso hitbox pokes out further than the sides and arms, which makes it a bit of a bullet magnet. This helps with that.

The missile spread gives a small nudge intended to make this variant a little bit better with missile accuracy (LRMs and SRMs). The missile cooldown helps this one be the best overall missile boat of the group.


ADR-A Left Leg: +12 Internal Structure, +12.5% Turning Rate
Logic: Honestly, I just wanted a variant, any variant, to get faster turning as an agility bonus. I arbitrarily chose the ADR-A for this role.

The leg internal health boost is already in effect.


ADR-A Right Leg: +12 Internal Structure, +12.5% Turning Rate
Logic: Honestly, I just wanted a variant, any variant, to get faster turning as an agility bonus. I arbitrarily chose the ADR-A for this role.

The leg internal health boost is already in effect.


ADR-A Left Arm: +7.5% LRM Cooldown, +2.5% Missile Cooldown, -7.5% LRM Spread, -2.5% Missile Spread
Logic: This location comes stock with an LRM20. It has a slow cooldown and a wide spread. These quirks help cover those issues.


ADR-A Right Arm: +7.5% LRM Cooldown, +2.5% Missile Cooldown, -7.5% LRM Spread, -2.5% Missile Spread
Logic: This location comes stock with an LRM20. It has a slow cooldown and a wide spread. These quirks help cover those issues.


ADR-A Left Torso: +7.5% Pulse Laser Cooldown
Logic: This location contains a Small Pulse Laser stock. When we look at the other body parts, we can see that this weapon is meant as backup for when the main guns (LRMs) can’t attack due to their minimum range. The cooldown quirks increase the damage output of the guns equipped in the side torsos.


ADR-A Right Torso: +7.5% Pulse Laser Cooldown
Logic: This location contains a Small Pulse Laser stock. When we look at the other body parts, we can see that this weapon is meant as backup for when the main guns (LRMs) can’t attack due to their minimum range. The cooldown quirks increase the damage output of the guns equipped in the side torsos.

ADR-B

Spoiler

Stock loadout for inspiration: ADR-B

Quirks:
ADR-B Center Torso: +3 Internal Structure, -5% Energy Heat
Logic: The Adder's center torso hitbox pokes out further than the sides and arms, which makes it a bit of a bullet magnet. This helps with that.

The reduced energy heat is because this variant equips more energy weapons stock than any other. This is the laser vomit variant, basically.

The internal structure boost was reduced to compensate for the sheer utility of reduced heat (which is IMO the best individual quirk in the game).


ADR-B Left Leg: +16 Internal Structure
Logic: This variant gets the toughest legs because of reasons. It’s arbitrary really.


ADR-B Right Leg: +16 Internal Structure
Logic: This variant gets the toughest legs because of reasons. It’s arbitrary really.


ADR-B Left Arm: +10% LBX Cooldown, +5% Ballistic Cooldown, -15% LBX Spread
Logic: This location comes stock with an LB 5-X. It has lower damage per ton than energy (the best choice for lights) and has a wide spread. These quirks help address that.


ADR-B Right Arm: -5% Pulse Laser Heat
Logic: This location comes stock with a Large Pulse Laser. It already has excellent range, so no range quirk is really needed. It has good damage, so cooldown isn’t really needed. That leaves just heat. The value is fairly small here because reduced energy heat is such a powerful quirk by itself.


ADR-B Left Torso: +5% ER Laser Range, -2.5% ER Laser Heat
Logic: The default weapon here is an ER Medium Laser. More range helps it be more pokey-skirmishy. Reduced heat helps it be a bit more of a backup weapon.


ADR-B Right Torso: +5% ER Laser Range, -2.5% ER Laser Heat
Logic: The default weapon here is an ER Medium Laser. More range helps it be more pokey-skirmishy. Reduced heat helps it be a bit more of a backup weapon.

ADR-D

Spoiler

Stock loadout for inspiration: ADR-D

Quirks:
ADR-D Center Torso: +10 Internal Structure
Logic: The Adder's center torso hitbox pokes out further than the sides and arms, which makes it a bit of a bullet magnet. This helps with that. It has a higher boost than other variants because I can’t think of secondary weapon quirks to attach with it. It has all three weapon types (energy/ballistic/missile) and can engage at all ranges, so it’s a generalist build. This is the best I can think of right now.


ADR-D Left Leg: +3 Internal Structure, +5% Top Speed
Logic: I gave it a small speed boost because I ran out of ideas. There’s already an agility variant, hillhumper variant, and a tough variant. This is literally all I could think of. The internal structure quirk got reduced a lot because of how useful this speed is.


ADR-D Right Leg: +3 Internal Structure, +5% Top Speed
Logic: I gave it a small speed boost because I ran out of ideas. There’s already an agility variant, hillhumper variant, and a tough variant. This is literally all I could think of. The internal structure quirk got reduced a lot because of how useful this speed is.


ADR-D Left Arm: -10% ER Laser Duration
Logic: This location is equipped stock with an ER Large Laser. Its biggest weakness by far is its long beam duration.


ADR-D Right Arm: +10% UAC Cooldown, +5% Ballistic Cooldown, -5% UAC Jam Rate (Additive, not multiplicative!)
Logic: This location comes stock with a UAC/5. It has lower damage per ton than energy (the best choice for lights) and has an annoying tendency to jam up. These quirks help it compete with energy on a basis of damage output.


ADR-D Left Torso: +10% SSRM Cooldown, +2.5% Missile Cooldown
Logic: The default weapon here is an SSRM2. This weapon isn’t particularly strong when not boated, due to both RNG targeting and a slowish cooldown. This helps alleviate that.

This weapon is also clearly meant as a short-range backup option if the long-range main guns couldn’t finish off the enemy robot before he got close.


ADR-D Right Torso: +10% SSRM Cooldown, +2,5% Missile Cooldown
Logic: The default weapon here is an SSRM2. This weapon isn’t particularly strong when not boated, due to both RNG targeting and a slowish cooldown. This helps alleviate that.

This weapon is also clearly meant as a short-range backup option if the long-range main guns couldn’t finish off the enemy robot before he got close.

The main change I might make could be to move most of the leg quirks up to the CT to just make life easier (because I ran out of ideas for how to differentiate the legs). And of course tweak values here and there to not break the universe.

Edited by FupDup, 27 March 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[Knyx]

FupDup, on 27 March 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

The problem with quirks that change to suit the weapon you mount is that there would be no reason to mount non-optimal weapons. Quirking less popular guns can give at least some modicum of motivation to use them... Why wouldn't I just slap LPL on everything? I already do even without quirks...

It also just reduces flavor in general, because every Clan mech would have the same quirks (especially due to the copy-and-paste ERML/LPL/Gauss/etc. Clan meta). Having pre-set quirks means that your mech has a clearly defined role to work around, rather than just being Gunbag A and Gunbag B.


The current system of quirks by Omnipod doesn't ruin the point of Omnis at all, because you can still mix-and-match your pods to create your ideal Mister Potatohead custom gundam build. So if you don't want the arm with ERPPC quirks, you can slide in the arm that has SRM buffs instead.


The real problems with the current Omni quirk system are as follows:

1. The values are weaksauce in many cases (lol 1% beam duration)
2. The specific choices for the type of quirks can be pretty derpy (ERPPC cooldown on a Puma? Whyyyyyyyyyy)

If weapons are underperforming then why can't the weapons themselves get buffed. Quirks seem like a lazy and potential more dangerous way to balance.

I think with the adaptable quirks the actual % can be small, as long as the underpowered weapons get tuned themselves.
You could even take my idea further and say the lower the max tonnage of the mech the higher % in quirks the mech gets as well as more quirks total. However IS quirks on some of the top performers def need a substantial reduction

[Rhaythe]

Knyx, on 27 March 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

If weapons are underperforming then why can't the weapons themselves get buffed.

Because overperforming mechs using buffed weapons equals more bad. The medium laser is fine on its own. You don't want to buff it across the board for, say, the Locust when the Firestarter also uses them.

Edited by Rhaythe, 27 March 2015 - 05:55 AM.

[FupDup]

Knyx, on 27 March 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

If weapons are underperforming then why can't the weapons themselves get buffed. Quirks seem like a lazy and potential more dangerous way to balance.

I think with the adaptable quirks the actual % can be small, as long as the underpowered weapons get tuned themselves.
You could even take my idea further and say the lower the max tonnage of the mech the higher % in quirks the mech gets as well as more quirks total. However IS quirks on some of the top performers def need a substantial reduction

The issue is that in some cases, the lighter mech actually manages to be more effective as it is, so quirk strength based on just mech weight could cause problems real fast... And ultimately, even with weight considered, some mechs just don't need any. The Crow is lighter than a Thor, but the latter could use some quirk lovin' while the former should get basically nothing.

None of this addresses the issue of cookie-cutter loadouts getting buffed on every mech. Preset quirks set an actual role for each pod to fulfill and can make different mechs use different builds. If you don't like the role of a certain pod, then just play the Mister Potatohead game and swap it for a pod you do like.

Edited by FupDup, 27 March 2015 - 06:00 AM.

[sneeking]

No quirks are not about under performing weapons but about mechs that need a leg up.

Weapon balance wont help weak mechs at all it will see them fall further due to other mechs using the same weapons and just been better.

The answer is mechs that can use the same weapon better ( quirks )

[FupDup]

Rhaythe, on 27 March 2015 - 05:55 AM, said:

Because overperforming mechs using buffed weapons equals more bad. The medium laser is fine on its own. You don't want to buff it across the board for, say, the Locust when the Firestarter also uses them.

I think that's not the best example because the IS ML* actually could maybe use a heat reduction to its original value as it is. It would help the weapon be more useful for people who want it as a backup gun (so it doesn't generate the same heat as their primary guns) and also just help the IS against the Clams in general.


*Also IS SL, because who uses them anyways?

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 27 March 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

I think that's not the best example because the IS ML* actually could maybe use a heat reduction to its original value as it is. It would help the weapon be more useful for people who want it as a backup gun (so it doesn't generate the same heat as their primary guns) and also just help the IS against the Clams in general.

And my Swayback will be grinning mightily if it happens. Rich getting richer and such.

FupDup, on 27 March 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

*Also IS SL, because who uses them anyways?

Yeah!!

*quietly hides his Locusts under a rock while no one's looking*

[FupDup]

Rhaythe, on 27 March 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

And my Swayback will be grinning mightily if it happens. Rich getting richer and such.

Note that it would probably warrant another pass over IS ML heat quirks in general, as would any other weapon balance change...

Rhaythe, on 27 March 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

Yeah!!

*quietly hides his Locusts under a rock while no one's looking*

You're the 0.1%.

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 27 March 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

You're the 0.1%.

Locust pilots - hell, according to the queue, Light pilots in general, for that matter...

[sneeking]

Im not saying they have it right just now but It's my feeling that quirking is the right way to go.

For diversity and fun not for realism and what would crush who in reality.

[FupDup]

Rhaythe, on 27 March 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

Locust pilots - hell, according to the queue, Light pilots in general, for that matter...

I was referring to users of the IS Small Laser, actually.

Small Laser using lights are a minority within the minority...

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 27 March 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

I was referring to users of the IS Small Laser, actually.

Small Laser using lights are a minority within the minority...

I don't care about Kill-to-Death ratio. Can you tell?

Back on topic - quirks aren't ideal, but they DO add a new layer of customization strategy to the game, so I've learned to like them. Do have to be careful with them when buffing weapons, however. Otherwise, the crying that happened during the 3ERPPC Thundernewb Crisis comes back.

[sneeking]

I like the idea of quirks and I even like some of the existing quirks.

There is a lot of room for the idea to evolve.

[Knyx]

But you have to agree there are also mechs where quirks won't help without having to make them outrageous. Like the Ferret or Gargoyle for example. Using those 2 examples getting more *available* tonnage would go along way. What I mean by available is, say if you stripped the Ferret/Garg of all equipment but used all armor points, that free tonnage you have to use for weapons/equipment is far too small and increasing it even by 3-8 tons would go a long way. By increasing it I also don't mean increasing the max tonnage, I mean keeping the max tonnage the way it is but decreasing the minimum tonnage after stripped.

Also it's not just clans, in regular que I see probably 80% of the mechs in every match are IS (prob cuz of cost). But in CW 75% of the IS mechs I see are either Stalker, Tbolts, Ravens or Firestarters. Many of these are due to hugely over tuned quirks. Which is exactly the cookie cutter builds, as you say, should be frowned on.

Edited by Knyx, 27 March 2015 - 06:58 AM.