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Asymmetric Balance And Clan Debate


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#1 BreakinStuff

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:10 AM

This isn't a nerf clans thread. This is my thoughts on the matter in general.

What do the clans bring to the table? This is a loaded question. The answer is different for every player.

For some, they get to play with the bogeyman of battletech. There is a certain appeal to playing the monster.

For others, living partly the lore one liked is the answer. If you haven't read any of the old novels, phelan Kell's first contact clan encounter is an excellent summation of the mindset. His incredulity upon first encountering a MadCat (Timber Wolf) pretty much matches a lot of opinions on it being OP.

Others play clan mechs because they think these particular stompy robots look cooler.

Still others play the clan mechs because they're flat out better, and giving up that advantage is stupid.

Lastly, we have the players who want to be able to have a win button. You know who they are, and their barely hidden commentary about how IS mechs are overpowered, or that they SHOULD be casually crushing the opposition, or who utterly lose their cool when IS mechs get a buff.

There's a few in every crowd.

What SHOULD Clan mechs bring to the game?

In my OPINION (Your mileage may vary, just disagreeing with me isn't enough to result in butthurt, only debate) the clans could have been a vehicle for engaging asymmetric play. You can have things which perform wildly differently in the same match and still have them be "fun" together. If this were not the case, we wouldn't have Atlas (not my favorite to drive) on the same field as a locust (with me cacklIng gleefully while dying in GLORIOUS FIRE) without the kind of screaming fits we see about dropping an Atlas vs. a Dire Wolf in a duel to the death.

Why?

They are not equal. They are not equal in any situation.

It's not "they are not equal" that is the problem with this concept.

The problem is "in any situation."

Tabletop dictated strict rules of engagement for deploying clan mechs. There was a strict and merciless code of honor adhered to on the field.

Once a clanner fired upon a target, that was HIS opponent and by god if another clanner engaged that target before one of them was dead?

The entire clan unit would turn and exterminate the offender, ignoring the IS freebirths. Backshots were considered the purview of cowards and clanners stoo face to face and traded death with their enemies.

By the same dint, the IS pilots had no such constraints, and a lot of clanners died because they would engage with honor only to have four mechs focus fire on them, one at a time.

It was a race to destruction. Four clan mechs (and one in reserve with his thumb up his *ss) engaging four separate mechs AT ALL TIMES. In turn the IS would tear them apart one by one by ganging up like hyenas on a steak.

It was asymmetric combat. The IS could win, with difficulty. But it was possible.

We cannot have that kind of Asymmetry in MWO because clan mechs are piloted identically to IS mechs. The tactics are the same. You cannot force a clan mech in MWO to adhere to the TT limiters.

Because the clan mechs have no limiters, and because the IS has no clear advantage they can exploit? We are in the current mess we have now. Let fly the cries of "NERF THE TIMBER WOLF NAO!"

PGI limits matches to roughly even tonnage, but even after you have modded your awesome to hell and back?

The Warhawk is still more powerful in a 1v1. There is a clear advantage in all situations.

The only exception is when the enemy mech is entirely short range in Alpine peaks or the pilot is the very definition of the word "moron."

Any counter dependent upon the stupidity of the enemy is not a counter.

so how do we preserve the Asymmetry of clan mech power and have a balanced game?

We can't use the table top limiter, that requires player cooperation. And players WANT TO WIN.

But in order to balance out, either the clan mechs need a clear, exploitable limiter or the IS needs a clear, exploitable advantage.

If we do this by tonnage the IS drop decks would need an average of 50-100 extra tons. Tonnage is a piss-poor balancer since a stormcrow can match, and frequently decimate, a Thunderbolt in 1v1 combat.

The other option is to make the IS and clan mechs the same. The differences ironed out until clans and IS were capable of doing identical feats. Making them effectively the same.

Kind of a crap option.

I LIKE asymmetric combat. I LIKE running around in a Locust pissing assaults off like a crack-tweaking two-year old.

But how can we have the asymmetry in IS Vs. Clans and have it fun for BOTH SIDES? Until this is answered, we don't have balance.

How do we have asymmetry of clan mechs vs. IS in pubs so that it's fun for all?

Sure, clan mechs are supposed to be potent. But how is it good for fun and game balance for one side to have clear and continuous advantage and expect the other group not to absolutely get mad about getting their asses kicked continually?

Edited by BreakinStuff, 27 March 2015 - 08:20 AM.


#2 Aiden Skye

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:34 AM

Well clans are supposed to at least have the range. But that isn't always possible with the amount of brawler type maps we have. I run clan mechs cuz I think they look cooler. They have a more futuristic feel to me as well. My favorite chassis from battlettech are mostly clan, save that catapult, raven, Uziel and Templar.

I think an idea will be to make more diverse maps so clans can really take advantage of range. Right now its al about the brawl. Other than that idk, might be difficult to get the kind of asymmetric gameplay that exists in lore.

#3 Rhaythe

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:46 AM

Asymmetric combat in videogames generally deals with two vastly different styles of playing. Look at Giants: Citizen Kabuto (or its more recent wannabe, Evolve). There is nothing similar to the two play styles.

I believe PGI missed a chance to truly do asymmetric combat with the clans. Their weapons are still too similar. Aside from a few different colors and burn times, clan mechs play exactly the same as IS mechs (like you mentioned).

I'd like to see this game turn that around completely. VASTLY change how clan mechs operate. Clan AC rounds are already different, and that's a good thing despite the community (clan) protest. So take it further. Change how their weapons fire. For example, instead of point-and-pew, give all clan lasers charges that dissipate as you hold down the left mouse button. Maybe change how their jumpjets work - give'em more power and distance, but disable weapons mid-flight. Make clan ERPPCs true lightning cannons that arch at close ranges and do more damage, but have it scatter across multiple components instead of leaking to an adjacent one.

SOMETHING to change how clans look, act, and feel.

Right now, and until clans truly play *different* from IS mechs, these comparisons will persist because they are, by nature, apples to apples.

EDIT: Oh, and for Blake's sake, change Betty's voice for clan mechs! Please?

Edited by Rhaythe, 27 March 2015 - 08:49 AM.


#4 BreakinStuff

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:54 AM

Clanns LOOK different, they just FEEL the same. Only better. That's pretty much the long and short of my issue. It worked in the TT (barely) but keeping that meta from the tabletop game requires a limiter as meaningful as the clan honor rules.

Without that, we're stuck with pissing and moaning and one-sided fights and clanners who unironically declare that their battles are won purely through "skill" which has nothing to do with the mechs being better.

#5 Anyone00

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:04 AM

Keep in mind Clan tech was still developed from the tech IS uses.

O.K. what about giving IS better support, while letting the Clans have the (current) better tech?
Quick and dirty method: reduce the consumable slot on Clan mechs to one and give the IS a reduced strike cool down with a bonus use or two during CW matches.
And later when they're developed give IS various dirty trick consumables: fake artillery/air strike markers, smoke artillery strikes, holographic decoys, booby trapped done controlled trucks and industrial mechs, and etc.

It would also be nice if Omnimechs could choose their omnipod configurations after finding out what map they're dropping on but that's even more balance concerns in the other direction.

#6 Lily from animove

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:18 AM

Well, dunno, should there be much of a difference? we play a 12 vs 12 game, and you cna not bring 5 IS emchs in your dropship vs 4 clanmechs in htheir cropships. So we need to balance stuff so that the majority of time a palyer spends is enjoyable.

And here comes the issue. "enjoyable" thats subjective.

Some like stomping others in their ezmode toy and feel cool and enjoy this. They will never want it changed.
Some want that toy back that was taken away when the holy trinity didn't appeared.

I want that the effort/outcome ratio of mechs is not as far away from each other as it is now. A lolcust pilot should have an adequate experience as a FS9 pilot, and a Nova pilot as the SCR pilot. or the IFR pilot and the CDA pilot.
Yet they differ soooo much that this is uncompparable, or better said: imabalanced.


soo many probably played TBR and SCR to nerf those mechs drectly, maybe the fear for too many crying of those pilots. Yet these mechs are the issue and needs some balancing. But instead weird statistics will give all clanners a nerf, even if 80% of the canmechs did not even constributed to this statistics.

Clanmechs should by this, just bring more choice of mechs, and attract people liking the chassis, or the mech, not because of its performance. They should come and join the clan they like by lore. The rest is not that important. Its robots fighting robots and they look as they look because of the BT background. But they perform differently because BT worked diferently.

View PostBreakinStuff, on 27 March 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Clanns LOOK different, they just FEEL the same. Only better. That's pretty much the long and short of my issue. It worked in the TT (barely) but keeping that meta from the tabletop game requires a limiter as meaningful as the clan honor rules.

Without that, we're stuck with pissing and moaning and one-sided fights and clanners who unironically declare that their battles are won purely through "skill" which has nothing to do with the mechs being better.


you should probably try to paly some of your mechs, look at the result speople achieve in the zeus, in FS9's in Dragons, in Hunchbacks. Clanmechs are not better. Not even the holy trinity is better anymore. Poeple just don't like to hear, when they are the issue of something.

How cna both sideshave fun? figure out the issues and fix them. but this only works when we objectively look for the issues, and when people are the issue, well you can't fix people. You cna try to explain them how it works, but too many just deny this and say "clams better" even if you deliver them the hard facts. And Someone that is stubborn will never improve.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 March 2015 - 09:20 AM.


#7 Knyx

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:22 AM

lol clan mechs hold no superiority over their IS counterparts. Quirks saw to the current situation we are in now.

Clans are supposed to have superior range? I raise you the stalker and multiple others.

Clans are supposed to have most burst damage? I can even raise you tons of IS mechs due to them already having lower duration lasers (and still get laser duration reduction quirks), as well as front loaded projectiles.

How about DPS? Well due to heat and having to stack a boat load of heatsinks to see a very noticeable difference, after the second alpha, IS mechs are still winning on DPS.

Movement speed? Well considering IS can adapt their builds by being able to upgrade/downgrade engines, it is moot, as well considering the speed gap between 2 mechs has to be VERY large for there to be a noticeable effect in actual combat. 20 speed difference is not something I would consider large.

All of the "omg op timber" forums posts are just extreme minority, a vocal but minor one. I can name lighter IS mechs then the timber that can beat the timber at all ranges (meta builds vs meta builds)

This is why I plan on switching and playing strictly IS (in CW) as I have come to this very realistic conclusion when starting to really stick to using IS mechs already in solo que.

#8 Rhaythe

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:24 AM

I'm curious to know what mechs people used during the Pot of Gold tourney thing. I'm a die-hard IS pilot... and yet, I whipped out the Stormcrow that weekend. And tore peoples' faces off with it.

#9 sneeking

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:31 AM

Is mechs are not weak they never were.

Clan isnt op either it never was.

Cry babys are the problem.

#10 BreakinStuff

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:31 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

you should probably try to paly some of your mechs, look at the result speople achieve in the zeus, in FS9's in Dragons, in Hunchbacks. Clanmechs are not better. Not even the holy trinity is better anymore. Poeple just don't like to hear, when they are the issue of something.

I'm assuming you meant "Play"

I play all of them. I figure out how to make all of them work. You call it a Lolcust, I call it being a little pain in your ass, and good, bastardly fun. I play the thunderbolt, the bladdermaster, the atlas, the King Crab, I have an awesome because fk you all, I loved the awesome from TT.

But I still have an easier time killing enemy mechs in the Dire wolf and Warhawk. My Timber Wolf variants (I use the prime to fairly good effect unmodded) all outperform my heavies. My hellbringer is easier to use and employ than any dragon. My Stormcrow is the only fun medium mech to drive.

The only IS mechs I flat out perform better in than the clans are the lights. The panther, spider and firestarter are fun. The jenner won me a match when I lucked out and cored the last enemy timber wolf with the single intact medium laser on a hail mary while I was legged. I have three variants of LoLcust all speed tweaked and modded to the absolute limit. 5 ML Locust are obnoxious and fun. So are quad MG locusts.

I play both sides. I don't "Just" run IS. I swap between them regularly. Unless I am in my king crab, every IS mech I have is at a sharp disadvantage 1v1 against a clan mech of similar tonnage in the medium and higher class. When I am running my clan mechs I don't usually have any trouble killing solo IS mechs of similar weight at all.

So yes, there's a vast gulf of difference between IS and clan mechs. Anyone who says otherwise is either looking to protect their crutch, or simply doesn't drive IS mechs frequently at all.

Edited by BreakinStuff, 27 March 2015 - 09:34 AM.


#11 cSand

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:37 AM

View Postsneeking, on 27 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Is mechs are not weak they never were.

Clan isnt op either it never was.

Cry babys are the problem.

Posted Image

#12 Johnny Z

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:51 AM

Some may think I am making a joke here but im not. This is a sci-fi in space and I think it would be cool if later there was enounters withunknown aliens of some sort that could include totally different kind of enemy. Think "war of the worlds" kind of stuff. This has been brought up before. Anyway I think as a random encounter some time it would be cool.

More on the clan OP topic, get over it. Its not cool to treat some players like second class. Ya that may be some players thing, but im glad this game isnt going to cater to it.

#13 TVMA Doc

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:55 AM

View PostBreakinStuff, on 27 March 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Clanns LOOK different, they just FEEL the same. Only better. That's pretty much the long and short of my issue. It worked in the TT (barely) but keeping that meta from the tabletop game requires a limiter as meaningful as the clan honor rules.

Without that, we're stuck with pissing and moaning and one-sided fights and clanners who unironically declare that their battles are won purely through "skill" which has nothing to do with the mechs being better.

How about having a temporary enemy flag that is established upon the first clan weapons contact with an enemy mech? Then, any other clan weapon that hits that mech gets the damage reflected back to the user to simulate his clan mates getting pissed at the kill steal?

I know, but IS can dream, right?

;)

#14 Rhaythe

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:56 AM

View PostTVMA Doc, on 27 March 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

How about having a temporary enemy flag that is established upon the first clan weapons contact with an enemy mech? Then, any other clan weapon that hits that mech gets the damage reflected back to the user to simulate his clan mates getting pissed at the kill steal?


Could simply flag that damage as friendly fire and adjust match rewards appropriately.

#15 FupDup

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:39 AM

View PostRhaythe, on 27 March 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

I'm curious to know what mechs people used during the Pot of Gold tourney thing. I'm a die-hard IS pilot... and yet, I whipped out the Stormcrow that weekend. And tore peoples' faces off with it.

Light: Invasion Badder with 2 LPL (had some surprisingly good matches actually...)
Medium: Enforcer 5D® with 3 ERLL
Heavy: Invasion Mad Cat with Laser Vomit (2 LPL + 3 ERML [only 3 ERML instead of 4 for better sustainability])
Assault: Legendary Invasion Wubhawk

#16 Rhaythe

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:42 AM

View PostFupDup, on 27 March 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Light: Invasion Badder with 2 LPL (had some surprisingly good matches actually...)

I enjoy the Badder. It's a solid mech for how I play it. But I'm also decent with a Locust, so that might say something about me.

#17 Rhent

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:48 AM

For the love of common sense Russ, get off your brains that you sit on and make CW 10 Clan vs 12 IS and fix the system so it can progress.

#18 cSand

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:59 AM

View PostRhent, on 27 March 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

For the love of common sense Russ, get off your brains that you sit on and make CW 10 Clan vs 12 IS and fix the system so it can progress.


Lol

I love how people actually think this would fix anything at all. The pug and solo queues get broken beyond repair. All cause the neckbeard whiners can't figure out how to fight properly.



10v12 may not the stupidest idea I've ever heard for this game but it's top 3 no doubt

Edited by cSand, 27 March 2015 - 12:06 PM.


#19 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:07 PM

I can feel where you are coming from, but from what I'm remembering in the lore, the initial reason that battles were asymmetric with the initial Clan thrust into IS space was having IS Successor mechs being held together with duct tape and luck mounting SHS and a blend of weapons, who then had to suddenly engage a new opponent with faster mechs, DHS and higher base accuracy with their weapons at greater ranges.

So with how inaccurate IS mechs and weapons are implied to be with P&P mechanics, it's little surprise that the Clans held an advantage.

But when the Battle of Tukayyid occurred with Comstar, the Com Guards had most or all mechs with DHS and other improvements that allowed them to better match the Clans and with some luck, better strategy and tactics were able to defeat most of the forces that the Clans bid to earn a Victory.

So the thing is, with our open construction system, we are able to upgrade and rebuild mechs into highly efficient and specialized mechs that should almost be matching Clan tech anyway. The main thing is then how various stats are implemented, and IMHO there is plenty of room for improvement with weapon stats, if we are to keep the various doubled values we have right now.




So for asymmetric warfare to get feel for the Clan Invasion, I wonder if we can play famous Battles in Battle Tech. So somewhat staged and structured in terms of the mechs and maps, but possibly allowing for that feeling that you are describing.

Our current Team Deathmatch in the drop queues and CW, would have a harder time to handle this properly, compared to the inherent capacity for one force to stomp the other in the current queues, and a part of that is the ability to customize our mechs as much as we can.

The only examples, I can think of to help describe the idea of structured Battles is how the Total War games have their Battles with preset forces that then leaves it up to the player to reenact or recreate the Battle.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 27 March 2015 - 12:09 PM.


#20 BreakinStuff

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 01:07 PM

there was also 12 mech companies vs. 15 mech clan trinaries. there was the tremendous firepower advantage and a few other dangly bits involving targeting computers and ECM shenanigans.

But the major balancing point before BV and the advent of the IS mass-mech nerdrush scenarios was the fact that clanners were not allowed to focus fire.





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