78 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

WM Quicksilver, on 29 March 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

Weapon hardpoints and ghost heat don't matter, the only advantage the Warhawk wishes it had is the high arm mounts and hitboxes.

2 C-LPLs are about par with 3 I-LL after you factor in the 4N's quirks.

Those high mounted hardpoints are kinda a big deal, though. It is not just about damage dealt but about damage received, and being able to turn any hill into a perfect hull down situation is incredibly powerful. Also, with the quirks and the way ghost heat works for the IS now, 3/3 ERLLas stalkers are downright brutal. You cannot trade with them, the good pilots barely expose themselves to shoot making return fire difficult, and they can do so at effective ranges beyond the c-LPLas'. No contest.

[Johny Rocket]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

FIFY.

I prefer Freeborn Scum or You Red *******

[Pariah Devalis]

Tractor Joe, on 29 March 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

I prefer Freeborn Scum or You Red *******

I would expect no less from a proud member of the Free Raisonette Republic.

[KraftySOT]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Those high mounted hardpoints are kinda a big deal, though. It is not just about damage dealt but about damage received, and being able to turn any hill into a perfect hull down situation is incredibly powerful. Also, with the quirks and the way ghost heat works for the IS now, 3/3 ERLLas stalkers are downright brutal. You cannot trade with them, the good pilots barely expose themselves to shoot making return fire difficult, and they can do so at effective ranges beyond the c-LPLas'. No contest.

This.

Actual laser vomit mechs piloted by laser vomit specialists, will always out trade paint with you. Especially if youre throwing your fire around to "suppress" them.

We know where our hard points are and where we have to stand to make as little of ourselves as visible as possible. Im not going to move because youre shooting the hill beside me or spraying lasers all over the place. Thats going to convince me to keep standing there, trading paint with you, because im winning.

[KraftySOT]

That said, there are plenty of clan laser vomit pilots out there too, who can do the same thing.

Chain firing a bunch of LLas or Plas, at the side of a hill, is just useless. No mech should be built around this, or quirked around this, or balanced around this. Thats ridiculous. It doesnt matter if you can chain 12 mlas for eternity. Some guy will come along and alpha you to death. DPS isnt everything. Nor is 'heat neutrality' (someone tell Paul and Russ, because thats their biggest fear in the world)

If youre not winning the trading paint battle, back off and find a new position and a new target. Dont attempt to 'suppress' the guy, because if he's actually dangerous with his laser vomit, he wont be moved by your actions. Quite the opposite infact.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Those high mounted hardpoints are kinda a big deal, though.

I know this, that's not what the point of the statement was. If the Warhawk had Stalker weapon mounts and better hitboxes, the Warhawk could out-trade the Stalker even with quirks.

[Burktross]

Give nova quirks.
Done.

/thread

[KraftySOT]

WM Quicksilver, on 29 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

I know this, that's not what the point of the statement was. If the Warhawk had Stalker weapon mounts and better hitboxes, the Warhawk could out-trade the Stalker even with quirks.

Ehhh. Im not entirely sure. Stalker has less time exposed, since it can up its engine to the point where it can neutralize a small percentage of your damage by peaking for less time than your lasers take to completely fire.

Thus some small percentage of your damage will never land, where as the Stalker with less laser duration can put all of it on you.

Even with equal hitboxes and mounts, 6 LL will probably beat 4 C-ERLL, and be on par with 4 C-LPlas

Edited by KraftySOT, 29 March 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

KraftySOT, on 29 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

That said, there are plenty of clan laser vomit pilots out there too, who can do the same thing.

Chain firing a bunch of LLas or Plas, at the side of a hill, is just useless. No mech should be built around this, or quirked around this, or balanced around this. Thats ridiculous. It doesnt matter if you can chain 12 mlas for eternity. Some guy will come along and alpha you to death. DPS isnt everything. Nor is 'heat neutrality' (someone tell Paul and Russ, because thats their biggest fear in the world)

If youre not winning the trading paint battle, back off and find a new position and a new target. Dont attempt to 'suppress' the guy, because if he's actually dangerous with his laser vomit, he wont be moved by your actions. Quite the opposite infact.

This.

What seems to be the case now is that Clans on defense will actually turtle up. Simply due to hardpoint placement and quirking, the laserdrills out paint swap the Clans. Clans have access to laser poking mechs, but not to the effectiveness of the IS ones. The counter? Bunker up. Hide behind buildings. If on defense the enemy is obligated to kill the generators and the cannon than they need to close range to do so. No sense in playing to the enemy's hands by letting them strip you. Once the enemy is forced to close range, they are in a close range brawl with a sniping weapon, which is not favorable to them.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 March 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[sycocys]

My experience mostly comes from playing against clan mechs, in standard drops they seem to be piloted by much lesser experienced pilots, in CW those guys do a much better job of controlling their heat and alternating who is firing. Making those high dps shots work in their favor much more efficiently.

That being said, I'm not at all against them quirking (since that's their balance method) what is totally an unused clan mech up a bit so there is some opportunity for more variety. Would rather seem them get rid of quirks all together and just come up with a method of balancing that doesn't eliminate so much variety.

[KraftySOT]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 March 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

This.

What seems to be the case now is that Clans on defense will actually turtle up. Simply due to hardpoint placement and quirking, the laserdrills out paint swap the Clans. Clans have access to laser poking mechs, but not to the effectiveness of the IS ones. The counter? Bunker up. Hide behind buildings. If on defense the enemy is obligated to kill the generators and the cannon then they need to close range to do so. No sense in playing to the enemy's hands by letting them strip you. Once the enemy is forced to close range, they are in a close range brawl with a sniping weapon, which is not favorable to them.

Which is how you see the IS deal with large clan groups who know how to leverage their range and group effectively committing at the right place and time.

Strategy is good. Dont trade paint in 1v1 duels with IS mechs. Its a losing battle. We're simply better at it. The idea on defense is put yourself into a position where you can double up your firepower on a single target as the enemy moves around from cover to attempt a paint swap mating dance. Deny them this mating dance.

Of course the IS is trying to bait you into the mating dance. Its actually pretty balanced, and pretty fun to watch/participate in. I love tricking some fancy unit clammer into said mating dancing and berm humping paint swap, and I loathe it when they wont fall for it. Its good times.

And the last place I want to be in a laser vomit Stalker, is face to face with a clam mech. ANY Clammech. Even a Myst Lynx. Its terrible and ruins my day.

I want you to play peakaboo at some corner at 560m.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KraftySOT, on 29 March 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Ehhh. Im not entirely sure. Stalker has less time exposed, since it can up its engine to the point where it can neutralize a small percentage of your damage by peaking for less time than your lasers take to completely fire.

The Warhawk has the better engine (340 vs 300) at the same tonnage and the duration difference between the C-LPL and I-LL is 0.15s. The Warhawk's main advantage is it can poke for longer periods but has more downtime between volleys.

That is, provided the Warhawk has Stalker high mounts and profile. Without that key thing the Warhawk just pales in comparison.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 29 March 2015 - 02:18 PM.

[KraftySOT]

WM Quicksilver, on 29 March 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

The Warhawk has the better engine (340 vs 300) at the same tonnage and the duration difference between the C-LPL and I-LL is 0.15s. The Warhawk's main advantage is it can poke for longer periods but has more downtime between volleys.

That is, provided the Warhawk has Stalker high mounts and profile. Without that key thing the Warhawk just pales in comparison.

Why does the Warhawk seem to move like a slug compared to a Stalker? Maybe im just seeing people grinding and dont have their pilot tree filled out, I guess that makes sense since thats the only reason to drive one.

Yeah its probably on par with CLPL, but still really deficient if loaded with ERs. Even then, that .15s matters. But id would have parity imho.

If the WH is actually more agile it might eek out slightly better with the CLPL build, but still, as said, it doesnt have the longevity in a fight, you have to spend serious time not firing. Whereas the Stalker can fire on you, then fire on another peakaboo mech somewhere else, then back to you by the time you pop out again.

Not that I think the WH should be better than the Stalker. It shouldnt really. The Stalker is a great mech, always has been, while the WH is kind of subpar. 4 ERPPC in the TT you can actually fire is nice, but it lacks what the RNG gods like, which is lots and lots of rolls, moar weapons moar rolls moar hilarity.

Edited by KraftySOT, 29 March 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[Bongo TauKat]

Just give them a Supernova and watch them shutdown every other alpha. Usually before exploding from overheat damage.

[Ultimax]

Blueduck, on 29 March 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

I understand how awesome the TW and crow are, but honestly they are all arounders of doom. They will never be able to lay down constant laser damage like some of the IS mechs can; which is completely fine. They are fast moving mean machines of doom but it still leaves the clan somewhat option-less in regards to suppressive fire with low heat penalty.

To this end I was thinking of the following quirks for a few of our mechs that should be suppressive fire mechs:

Warhawk: PPC/Laser Heat Quirk: Note I did not say range quirk as that would break the system. Give the warhawk something so he can fight the stalker in a ranged suppressive fire war.

Nova: Better heat perks: Make it so he is something of a thunderwub light but with less survivability.

Gargy: Give him so ammo and ac perks so he can function like a dragon might as a mid/long range suppressive dakka mech. The clans could really use an autocannon mech that is as scary as the dragon.

Anyone agree/disagree? Please be nice in your comment.

The problem is that Clan Lasers are already working from a completely super standpoint if we look at base stats vs. base stats.

So it's taken mighty quirks to get several, not all, IS mechs able to compete with Lasers.



So while some Clan mechs could certainly use a few quirks - I don't want to see massive laser quirks for Clan mechs.


Take a Gargoyle, take a Zeus.

Build each of them with the intention of playing at 400-500m.

You'll quickly see it's extremely easy to run something on the Gargoyle while the Zeus hits a hard-wall around the 3rd or 4th LLAS.

The more firepower you try to add to the Zeus, the more you will probably end up with an XL engine.


So even when we compare two clearly sub-optimal mechs, clan-tech ends up pushing the Clan mech ahead.

[Aethon]

Sustained laser barrage? The firing duration on the Clan ER Large Laser is so damned long, you could do it with just two of those, in chain fire.

[Carpenocturn]

KraftySOT, on 29 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Thats terrible. Why on earth would you do that.

Shoot the center of the red boxes, those gundams are what you want to hit with yer lazors. Theres no reason you ever want to convince a noob to do anything but run into the open, and bittervets know better, so will just run over you, in the open, because you done fired off half your weapons already in a game where 6 seconds is the usual TTK.

I mean if youre just a bad shot, thats called being a bad shot, not suppressive fire.

That functions on a precedent that the person being suppressed, cares about dying. Its a video game brah. Ever watch a 12 man? Ever see them care about taking hits? Nope. Teasing ridge lines is a noob move, and suppressing them a noob move.

Ahhhhh wow, no

Hitting an area with artillery or suppressive fire is a great way to drive mechs into the open or have them hang back waiting for you to stop.

"Rush into that Large laser beam when I can wait it out here? ooooh it's stopped I'll, no wait another one, oh another, maybe it's worth nipping out there and alphaing back..." Steps out
While he has waited supressive fire has allowed 2 mechs to move to a better firing spot without being seen by him.
"ZAPZAPZAPZAP PEWPEWPEW ARRRRRRRGGH!"

[Chagatay]

Aethon, on 29 March 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

Sustained laser barrage? The firing duration on the Clan ER Large Laser is so damned long, you could do it with just two of those, in chain fire.

Almost. However, you forgot that the CD only stops after it is done firing.

[Deathlike]

TBH, the error in the OP's post is focusing on sheer DPS, instead of sustainable DPS through better build usage.

Even just the removal of 1 CERMED is enough to improve the cooling of a Clan Mech.

Sounds silly, but it's true.

[Elizander]

You suppress them by smacking a 40+ alpha on their CT when they pop out. If they keep popping out then keep suppressing them and you'll eventually win.