11 replies to this topic

[destroika]

Edit: It seems I did not have the full picture on how Omega in counterattack mode worked. I only thought there was attack and defense, I did not realize there was counter attack (intermediate) and invasion (attack vs. defense).

In the paraphrased words of a good friend of mine, "the quickest and most accurate way to acquire the correct knowledge is to post something incorrect as fact."

Taking this into account, I see now how my example suggestion wouldn't be very good. But that is why it is only an example, I don't know what the best solution would be. The core of my argument still remains, however, something is missing during the counterattack mode that provides absolutely no flow of battle and no strategic options to stimulate progression.

/end edit.

When Clans attack Inner Sphere, most often the scenario is that all gates are open, there are no generators, there is only 1 target called "Omega." The Clan mission objective is to destroy omega AND have the most kills by the time end.

The problem is, there is no strategy at all here. For the IS side, at the start at 0 kills each, all they have to do is not allow Clan to get more kills which puts them in an extremely defensive and upper hand position - think Alamo. Omega means absolutely nothing if Clan can't kill them all. Even if clan mechs manage to flank by the IS and attack Omega, there is absolutely no incentive for IS to protect Omega, all they have to focus on is not dieing and keeping a very strong position - this is called "turtling," and is generally very frustrating for players to have to deal with.

Even if Clan can kill off the IS's first wave, by the time they get near omega, the IS is landing. The weakened Clan mechs from the previous fight are now fighting respawns with dropship fire. It is very difficult, near impossible, for Omega to be destroyed with only the remaining Clan mechs. As long as Omega is not destroyed and both waves cancel out, IS is still winning, and it requires Clan mechs to beat the IS first wave to even have a long shot at victory. In an even match, Clan never even makes it to Omega as both waves continue to cancel out. The only way Clan can win is for the IS side to be greedy, impatient, cocky, glitched, disconnected, or generally less skilled. The current set up will never allow for Clan to win in an even match.

There needs to be a strategy to utilize.

For example: If Omega is destroyed before either side is killed, if the time runs out, Clan now wins as long as there is at least 1 Clan mech alive at end time. This allows for there to be incentive for IS to actually protect Omega as the kill requirement flips.

If Omega is getting attacked, they have to weaken their position and/or expose themselves to protect Omega. Considering Clan mechs have already weakened their forces to have this split attack going on, this makes the match's objectives even again.

Edited by destroika, 31 March 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Wintersdark]

This isn't a "most often" thing; there are two game modes:

Invasion, and Counter Attack.

Invasion has multiple targets and such as we know, Counter Attack is just a 48v48 brawl. This is by design.

Omega only exists at all to force the attacker (not IS or Clan, as either can be in either position) to actually attack, otherwise both sides would just turtle and wait in a strong defensive position.

Your example is bad. What would happen is this:

Attackers bum rush Omega. No amount of defending will prevent it's early destruction, as there's no gates or turrets. With so much less defensive strength, a suicide rush would pop omega right away. That, incidentally, is why we have the omega shield generators in Invasion mode now - without them (how Community Warfare started) it was trivial to just rush 'n pop Omega.

Once omega was popped, the attackers would need only delay/hide/flee/turtle, turning the game into a hideously tedious affair.

[Wintersdark]

The game mode itself is the way it is to represent how the defending side has successfully taken that territory in a previous Invasion battle (they have to have done this; game mode isn't random). Now, the attackers in this second battle are trying to retake that territory they have lost. All the defending side in Counter-attack needs to do is... Defend. Turtle. As you say.

That's by design. It's supposed to favor the defender, but not as much as Invasion does. It's also supposed to bring a game mode that is more about actual combat, where rush tactics are not as successful.

Edited by Wintersdark, 30 March 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Stealth Fox]

I can't tell you how many times on the defense.. we've just said "**** the Omega" and just brawled it out with the attacking IS. I can see what they are trying to do.. but it doesn't really work...

[MechWarrior849305]

destroika, on 30 March 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

TL

I can easily change 'IS' for 'Clan' and vice versa in your post and it will not change a tiny bit.

Stop whining, keep fighting

Edited by DuoAngel, 30 March 2015 - 09:28 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

As usually i don't get why not a typical ticket system is used, like other game modes - you can allow multiple victory conditions.
Simple say min tickets have to be 22 - omega count 6 points - difference have to be at least 4 points

[Wintersdark]

Seph MacLeod, on 30 March 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

I can't tell you how many times on the defense.. we've just said "**** the Omega" and just brawled it out with the attacking IS. I can see what they are trying to do.. but it doesn't really work...

Yeah it does. What they are trying to do is ensure that the attacker has to attack. That's it.

It does that.

[Stealth Fox]

Wintersdark, on 30 March 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

It does that.

Really? I can tell you what makes ME attack in a game. it's called

"I just waited for a stupid fricken Que for 15 goddamn minutes for a match, i'm gonna get as many Cbils out of this b-itch as I can to make it at least SEEM worth while."

[Vellron2005]

When counterattacking, the defending side should have new turret defences and a mobile shield generator , but no gates. This would reflect the conquered battlefield feel but still give significance to omega... Alternativelly, you could switch one omega for three mobile command centres scattered about..

[Wintersdark]

Seph MacLeod, on 30 March 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

Really? I can tell you what makes ME attack in a game. it's called

"I just waited for a stupid fricken Que for 15 goddamn minutes for a match, i'm gonna get as many Cbils out of this b-itch as I can to make it at least SEEM worth while."

most aren't in CW to grind c-bills, and instead want to win. As such, they'll follow the optimal strategies to win. If it's clearly better to turtle, they'll turtle, and you REALLY don't want your attackers turtling.

[DoctorZuber]

Yes, there are different game modes in CW. Yes, they favor the defender. It is by design that the defenders have an advantage, which in theory would slow the rate of planets changing hands.

It is also in practice, largely irrelevant.

The reality of CW is instead PreMade vs PUG. The difference in both equipment and effective skill between a well equipped Premade and a typical PUG team is daunting indeed. Trial mechs with their mixed range configurations just don't have a chance, not to mention the enormous difference a solid plan makes.

And ironically, the entire CW system not only allows this harsh reality, it actively encourages it.

There are many planets that can be contested at any given time. At any given moment at least 3/4ths of them have absolutely zero players waiting to que. This makes it very trivial for an organized outfit to come along at any time, and stuff 12 players into a planet of their choosing.

And then the encouraging part happens. Now that one side has a team of 12 (premade) qued up, a bright red shield pops up informing the entire opposing faction that a team is ready to fight over such and such planet. It's bright and red indicating urgency. Inevitably some hapless fools are enticed by this urgent message and form a PUG.

Madness and pain soon follow.

This entire system, is cleverly designed to LOSE YOU PLAYERS. Getting brutally slaughtered by vastly superior forces every time you que up for CW . . . IS . . . NOT . . . FUN. And whats worse this experience is one that is all but guaranteed to befall every new player to the game.

I shudder to think how many quit the game as a direct result.

Edited by DoctorZuber, 25 April 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[DoctorZuber]

There are two very different sides to this question.

First, on the subject of Counterattack. No, it works just fine the way it is. To win, you still need to win on the field with more kills. This gives a slight, but not significant advantage to the defender.

Second, on the subject of Invasion, God yes, please fix this. The system of Omega in an invasion match is completely one sided and heavily favors the attacker. At any point in the match, the attacker can choose to just destroy omega, ending the match, and winning. Omega can be burned down in well under a minute. Omega can be destroyed even by just a team of light mechs.

Now, in fairness, most attacking teams are fairly magnanimous about the whole thing. They have after all been sitting patiently in a que for longer than I care to contemplate waiting for a few brave PUGs to foolishly form against them. So in most cases, yes they would actually much prefer to kill each and every one of you rather than end this battle prematurely.

But in the unlikely event that they do start losing, they do still have the option to secure a win at any time, by simply pushing past you, ignoring all hits, and killing omega.

On rare occasion, for whatever reason you will also see a game end in under 5 minutes. This is often a team of lights, who push past you, and burn down omega before you can kill them.

In either scenario, there was really no way you could possibly win. Even in the unlikely event that it is a fairly even match, Omega is just way too fragile. It can drop in under a minute despite the best efforts of the most skilled team.