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Ideas on the Clan Invasion - Implementation, Balance, etc


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#1 WardenWolf

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:50 PM

From everything we have seen and heard thus far, it looks like the Devs are keeping pretty closely to BattleTech canon as far as the timeline goes. Given the 1:1 time progression we already know that next Spring will see the Clan invasion reaching the Inner Sphere, and there are members of this forum who are excited about it (so far as wanting to jump ahead and have it start now) as well as those who would prefer it never happen in this game / timeline. Many have also voiced concerns about how it will happen - worried that it will throw of the balance of tech, the number of players who might want to switch sides, etc. I have seen many such worries listed in other topics, and a variety of solutions suggested... but none that I have seen yet (and please pardon me if I missed one) that addressed the entirety of the situation and offered solutions on every point. That is my aim here ;)


1) Rumors of War:

I think the existing ISN system should start having occassional posts about strange attacks in the periphery very soon. Just rumors and small bits of info, since the Inner Sphere didn't worry much about those on the edge of known space... but something to give folks (especially those not educated in the timeline) a little idea of what is coming. Such posts can become more common as the invasion approaches the great house's territory as well.

2) Selection of Clan Forces:

At this time there is not an AI system implemented for player vs computer interaction, and I don't think there is time to develop such a system in the few months before the invasion will take place. There are also not enough developers at PGI to play the full invasion force themselves. At the same time, the invasion should be a 'surprise' to the Inner Sphere players, and not come with any sort of warning on a big scale (no patch notes about it, no open beta testing, etc).

What I would propose, then, is that PGI be watching the player stats during the initial months of the game, and then when they are about a month out from the invasion they can privately email 500-1000 of the best players in the game. Not all of the absolute best, but a mix of those who 1) play the game a lot, and 2) have some of the better personal records (despite how teams they are on fared). Recruit a secret group, under NDA, and give then the ability to start practicing with Clan mechs and technology against eachother.

3) Initial Invasion:

When the time comes, these players would start to be dropped into games in small groups - but *during* an existing fight. I would suggest that 12v12 battles see a binary (10 mechs) of clan players dropped in about 2-3 minutes into the game, with a global chat announcement of their commander's batchall (clan challenge). For smaller battles, if there are any, maybe a single star of 5 mechs instead.

These battles would be at random, and with a focus mostly along the areas where the invasion was to take place (battles along the FRR, Kurita, and Steiner borders - and potentially merc company vs company battles too). If there are any completely random battles (WoT style, where sides don't matter) they could happen there too. The IS players would become merged into one team against the invaders, and the outcome of the battle would be based on their performance against the clan players.

4) Continuing the Invasion:

As time goes by, say 1-2 weeks into the event, each clan player would be given the ability to select an enemy they defeated in battle (someone whose mech was destroyed in a battle the clan side won) and offer for them to become bondsmen. This would switch their allegiance from whatever house or merc company they were with over to the clan that the inviting player was from. This would allow the clan ranks to grow *slowly* and in a controlled manner. They would be bring their existing mechs over to their new faction, and would then have access to clan weapons, mechs, etc.

Eventually, after about a month, the form of battle would change to one where there would be clan vs IS battles along the borders of the invasion. This would bring the battle mechanic back into the norm for the game, and enable the slow fall of IS planets to clan control (so as to follow canon). At some point the clan factions would be opened to other IS players - either as a payed option to join or simply a faction they could switch allegience to. Mercs would *not* be able to fight on the clan side of battles, though, and switching allegience in this way would sever any ties and reputation gained with any of the IS factions.

5) Balancing Clan Tech and Battles:

In the first phase of the invasion, balance would be purely about numbers: the IS would have up to 24 mechs vs 10 for the clans. Granted, a few minutes into a battle the IS may have already lost a few mechs and had others damaged, but the numbers would still be in their favor. The clan tech would be better, though, and of course the idea would be to have their players (at first) be more skilled on average as well. This should simulate the 'real' invasion closely.

By the time that the battles become IS vs Clan the numerical advantage would be lower (12 vs 10), but still in the IS's favor. This could further be balanced by giving the clans lower tonnage (even lower than the 12:10 ratio implied by the number of mechs). That won't be enough for ever, though, so I would further implement a couple of systems during the invasion:

Salvage - There would be a chance that, upon an IS victory over the clan players, an IS player could 'salvage' a weapon from one of the defeated clan mechs. There might also be an even smaller chance to salave an entire enemy mech; if this was the case it would only happen once per player / account. The salavaged mech or weapon would *not* be taken away from the clan player, it would simply be added to the inventory of the IS player. It would also be expensive to repair for an IS player, and it would only be able to mount clan weapons (so limiting the customization for IS players with clan mechs, at least for a time).

Clan Honor System - The Clans were known for their unique style of combat, which focused on single combat. This could be implemented in-game by making a substantial portion of the XP and credits* (more on this later) earned by clan players dependant on adhering to the main principles their society held to. Whereas IS players will gain XP for defeating enemies, causing damage, completing objectives, and winning the battle the clan players would be rewarded for only shooting at enemies that had shot at them or which they had called out as opponents - and perhaps even penalized for breaking those rules.

*[The clans didn't use 'cbills', so I'm not sure if they should split and have a different in-game credit system - or if for simplicity it would be better to keep the same monetary unit]

Omnitech - Clan mechs would be more flexible about weapon placement. I would have a hardpoint system like IS mechs, but where it was just a number: the type of weapon that could be mounted would not be restricted. Clan mechs would only be able to mount clan weapons, though, and both the weapons and mechs would cost more to field (purchase, repair, and reload - on par with IS Lostech). There could also be second-line clan mechs that are not Omni, and which would cost less.

Over time, clan weapons and mechs would also become purchasable to IS players. These would start out fairly expensive, and purchasable *only* with in-game currency (not with real money, to avoid claims of 'pay 2 win' mentality). As time goes on the prices would come down to be on-par with similar IS tech (lostech) and then would be open to purchase via real money as well. Once that happened, clans would still have a lower number of mechs in battles - but they would be brought up to a 12:10 ratio on tonnage or whatever other balancing system is in place for matchmaking.

6) Effects on Community Warfare

Over the first 2 1/2 years of the invasion, the IS would slowly lose ground to the clans - to keep with canon. I could see having some planets forced to fall, while others which were not critical to canon events might be able to be held by the IS if the players do well enough (similar to core worlds in the IS that couldn't change hands vs the ones that would go back and forth between houses depending on player activity). When the battle of Tukayid rolls around, it could be a week-long event (so that all players in the game who want to could play) and it would end the actual invasion itself. That would bring the forward motion of the clans to a halt, and at that point the clans with a presence in the IS would start to behave as houses do in the overall community warfare situation. For more on my thoughts about community warfare as a whole, please see this post: http://mwomercs.com/...warfare-pillar/

I hope that whatever the devs end up doing for the invasion is a great experience for all the players in MWO! This event has the potential to be immersive and introduce newer players to a rich history, as well as expand the playerbase with more factions to join and new toys to play with for everyone. Devs, please feel free to use any of the ideas here - or adapt them as needed to fit your vision B)

#2 Agent CraZy DiP

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:20 PM

You have a lot of cool things to be taken into consideration. Only thing I'm not sure of, I'd have to check with Sarna and the Fan-boys, but I'm pretty sure the Clan Invasion happened all at once. In otherwords, complete surprise without Rumors of Wars.

#3 Radick

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:32 PM

This is a pretty good general idea for how the clan invasion may occur. Just one small thing.

View PostWardenWolf, on 01 July 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

3) Initial Invasion:
When the time comes, these players would start to be dropped into games in small groups - but *during* an existing fight. I would suggest that 12v12 battles see a binary (10 mechs) of clan players dropped in about 2-3 minutes into the game, with a global chat announcement of their commander's batchall (clan challenge). For smaller battles, if there are any, maybe a single star of 5 mechs instead.


I would think it would be better if there was only a star (5 mechs) in a 12v12 battle. 5 clan mechs are definitely a force to be reckoned with. One time playing MegaMek(the unofficial online version of Battleteck) I had 3 Riflemen IICs (slightly customized) completely murder a Kuritan force of about 9 mechs. They even had slightly more battle value (meaning it was a fair fight from a clanners point of view.) I think at the end I had lost about 100 battle value from slightly less than 10,000 battle value while they had lost everything from starting at about 10,100. It was a little humorous.

Also, the objective should be changed to destroy the new invaders or destroy all enemies. This would allow the enemy teams to decide if they are willing to work together or not. If they decide to work together than they might have a chance to stop the clanners. This would also add to the confusion as some players might not care and just shoot at anything that moves with a red target over them. If the teams decide to fight together against the clanners, then they can have a quick vote of yes or no and the majority or two thirds(or something that would probably be changed so I am not going to figure it out) would determine the "new" goal for winning.

I hope that all makes sense. What do you think?

<S>
Radick

#4 WardenWolf

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:13 PM

View PostAgent CraZy DiP, on 01 July 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

You have a lot of cool things to be taken into consideration. Only thing I'm not sure of, I'd have to check with Sarna and the Fan-boys, but I'm pretty sure the Clan Invasion happened all at once. In otherwords, complete surprise without Rumors of Wars.

The invasion happened in 5 waves, the first of which only hit the Periphery in Autumn of 3049. The wave that hit the actual Inner Sphere was in Spring of 3050. I would think that some occasional news from the periphery that hints at things happening out there would be interesting... but they could also skip it and just have everyone surprised when the first clan mechs drop into battle ^_^

http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Invasion

#5 WardenWolf

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:17 PM

View PostRadick, on 01 July 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I would think it would be better if there was only a star (5 mechs) in a 12v12 battle. 5 clan mechs are definitely a force to be reckoned with. One time playing MegaMek(the unofficial online version of Battleteck) I had 3 Riflemen IICs (slightly customized) completely murder a Kuritan force of about 9 mechs. They even had slightly more battle value (meaning it was a fair fight from a clanners point of view.) I think at the end I had lost about 100 battle value from slightly less than 10,000 battle value while they had lost everything from starting at about 10,100. It was a little humorous.

Remember that is against AI opponents - player vs player I would think giving the IS a 2-to-1 mech advantage (and possible even a greater tonnage advantage) would be fair... but also, I would want it such that most of the time when the clans dropped into a game they would win (maybe 60-80% of the time). If they were so weak that the IS could win half or more of the time then it wouldn't feel like as big of a threat.

View PostRadick, on 01 July 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Also, the objective should be changed to destroy the new invaders or destroy all enemies. This would allow the enemy teams to decide if they are willing to work together or not. If they decide to work together than they might have a chance to stop the clanners. This would also add to the confusion as some players might not care and just shoot at anything that moves with a red target over them. If the teams decide to fight together against the clanners, then they can have a quick vote of yes or no and the majority or two thirds(or something that would probably be changed so I am not going to figure it out) would determine the "new" goal for winning.

I could see leaving the two IS teams still 'enemies', to add to the confusion of battle and allow opportunistic players to still shoot eachother in the back (I like that idea, especially for mercs)... but I wouldn't recommend having an option to team up. A system where people have to vote in-battle somehow would be a distraction and would require extra programming.

#6 Fire for Effect

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 03:16 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on 01 July 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:




1) Rumors of War:

Such posts can become more common as the invasion approaches the great house's territory as well.


2) Selection of Clan Forces:



What I would propose, then, is that PGI be watching the player stats during the initial months of the game, and then when they are about a month out from the invasion they can privately email 500-1000 of the best players in the game.

3) Initial Invasion:

When the time comes, these players would start to be dropped into games in small groups - but *during* an existing fight. I would suggest that 12v12 battles see a binary (10 mechs) of clan players dropped in about 2-3 minutes into the game, with a global chat announcement of their commander's batchall (clan challenge). For smaller battles, if there are any, maybe a single star of 5 mechs instead.


4) Continuing the Invasion:

As time goes by, say 1-2 weeks into the event, each clan player would be given the ability to select an enemy they defeated in battle (someone whose mech was destroyed in a battle the clan side won) and offer for them to become bondsmen. This would switch their allegiance from whatever house or merc company they were with over to the clan that the inviting player was from. This would allow the clan ranks to grow *slowly* and in a controlled manner. They would be bring their existing mechs over to their new faction, and would then have access to clan weapons, mechs, etc.


5) Balancing Clan Tech and Battles:

In the first phase of the invasion, balance would be purely about numbers: the IS would have up to 24 mechs vs 10 for the clans. Granted, a few minutes into a battle the IS may have already lost a few mechs and had others damaged, but the numbers would still be in their favor. The clan tech would be better, though, and of course the idea would be to have their players (at first) be more skilled on average as well. This should simulate the 'real' invasion closely.

By the time that the battles become IS vs Clan the numerical advantage would be lower (12 vs 10), but still in the IS's favor. This could further be balanced by giving the clans lower tonnage (even lower than the 12:10 ratio implied by the number of mechs). That won't be enough for ever, though, so I would further implement a couple of systems during the invasion:


6) Effects on Community Warfare




I shorted it a bit...

1) yes definitely
2) maybe
3) nope since balance is not attained by numbers or tonnage alone as I have already stated and proven numerous times.
4) interesting idea but why not allow each player a clan and an (or more than one) IS mechwarrior? of course tech money ect have to be kept seperately. If it shows damn not enough IS players here for a match just switch to another IS mechwarrior and the battle can begin...
5) same as 3) balance is not just tonnage or numbers alone...
6) raids into clan space would also always be a possibility so the planets might become Clan but still be used to "free" technology or even make a defensive stand on it... in other words community warfare could be not for possession or a planet but for grabbing advanced technology.

#7 WardenWolf

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:54 AM

3 & 5) I understand that there may not be any balancing mechanism in the beta (not in it, so I can't say for sure) but I would expect there must eventually be *something* in the matchmaking system other than random selection of 12 players per side. It wouldn't be very fair to a team to drop it in without any scouts, or with half the tonnage of the opposing team. Even though balance is around role warfare it means that each team needs to have all the roles represented in its mechs.

I would hope that there will be a tonnage balancing done, which would be likely to end up giving both sides a good mix (or at least an equal mix) of mech sizes / roles. Another option would seem like it could be matching 2 of each weight class + 4 others at random, thus assuring that at least all roles are present on both sides. If there is absolutely *no* brains to the matchmaking process then it will be a crapshoot :/

As long as there is *some* measure of control in the MM like that, the devs ought to be able to balance teams slightly in favor of the IS side... but I guess it is best to wait and see how it works before getting too concerned about this :)

4) Splitting a player's account into two is an interesting idea! My only worry there is that we'd have to grind twice for all the pilot skills, or else they'd have to be shared somehow between the two sides of the player's account... but it is certainly worth considering. The biggest advantage, it seems to me, would be that you could avoid concerns that too many people might move over to the clan side: they would have a presence on both, and could switch back and forth at will. At the same time, though, I'm not sure of the implications for community warfare... since it would let one person have a presence on both sides of the war, which might lead to intentional griefing or the like.

#8 Fire for Effect

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:21 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 02 July 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

3 & 5) I understand that there may not be any balancing mechanism in the beta (not in it, so I can't say for sure) but I would expect there must eventually be *something* in the matchmaking system other than random selection of 12 players per side. It wouldn't be very fair to a team to drop it in without any scouts, or with half the tonnage of the opposing team. Even though balance is around role warfare it means that each team needs to have all the roles represented in its mechs.

I would hope that there will be a tonnage balancing done, which would be likely to end up giving both sides a good mix (or at least an equal mix) of mech sizes / roles. Another option would seem like it could be matching 2 of each weight class + 4 others at random, thus assuring that at least all roles are present on both sides. If there is absolutely *no* brains to the matchmaking process then it will be a crapshoot :/

As long as there is *some* measure of control in the MM like that, the devs ought to be able to balance teams slightly in favor of the IS side... but I guess it is best to wait and see how it works before getting too concerned about this :)





I just copy paste what I had already said:

10 to 12 does not hit it,

Example:

Clan side:

6 Mad Cat A 6 x 6330 = 37980 (6 x 75 tons)
2 Uller A 2 x 1939 = 3878 (2 x 30 tons)
2 Black Hawk A 2 x 3823 = 7646 (2 x 50 tons)

since the Mad Cat is probably the most well-loved Clan mech thats a good estimation. For comparision Daishi Primary 8901 Value 100 tons

Combined Clan Value: 49504

take note: note a single Assault Mech in the Clanner setup.



Inner Sphere:

4x Atlas AS7D 4 x 5371 = 21484 (4 x 100 tons)
4x Marauder MAD-3R 4 x 3556 = 14224 (4 x 75 tons)
2x Raven RVN-1X 2 x 1390 = 2790 (2 x 35 tons)
2x Hunchback HBK-4G 2 x 2334 = 4668 (2 x 50 tons)

combined IS value: 43166

comparision:
IS : 43166
Clan : 49504

So the IS has less that 90% combat potential of the Clans although Clans have 610 tons IS has 870 tons. the Clan force is also much more mobile than the IS Force, and all of the above are Omnis so that will also be an advantage that the IS cannot counter.

This Gap can close somewhat if and when advanced technology is more widespread, the IS Mechs above are more or less 3025 designs but in 3049 most Mechs are still without any advanced Tech also most of our Mechs will be without any real advance Tech changing Weapons from IS to pure Clan Weapons typically results in about 5% Combat potential increase, but IS weapons even advanced ones are inferior to pure Clan designs.... To make it even the force above would need another Marauder and an additional Hunchback or advanced Tech an Atlas AS-7K model with 2 Md pulse laser, XL Engine,2 ER Large laser, gauss rifle, AMS and CASE has t 5961 points but would still be far from the Clanners combat potential.

#9 WardenWolf

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:24 PM

Ah, I see what you mean now Fire for Effect! Thank you for clarifying :P

I am *hoping* that this would be somewhat alleviated by the combination of bigger IS vs Clan teams at first (up to 24 v 10 in the initial invasion) along with the IS players getting slow access to salvaged Clan tech. Once an average IS player is mounting a couple of Clan weapons it may balance things out a bit, though as you clearly showed the old-school battle value leaned *heavily* in the Clan's favor.

#10 Fire for Effect

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:01 PM

you are welcome;

maybe they should pin the part with the numbers so it is not asked again and again....

the Clanner force above should mop the floor with the IS forces if the pilots are equal and the terrain is not favoring one side. (eg. a nice fortress for the IS)

#11 Radick

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:30 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on 01 July 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Remember that is against AI opponents - player vs player I would think giving the IS a 2-to-1 mech advantage (and possible even a greater tonnage advantage) would be fair... but also, I would want it such that most of the time when the clans dropped into a game they would win (maybe 60-80% of the time). If they were so weak that the IS could win half or more of the time then it wouldn't feel like as big of a threat.


You probably remember last night's game, Bondsman.... :)

You have to remember that if the clans dropped into a game, they would probably be together while the Inner Sphere forces would likely be all over the map. The clan forces should be able to take out a couple lances(assuming these players are the best of the best) before the Inner Sphere forces can regroup to actually form a unified group(if they chose to do so). I suspect that before the Inner Sphere can do much it will be a all the Clan battlemechs with minimal damage(if any) against maybe half of the original Inner Sphere battlemechs with most being moderately damaged(some being heavily damaged or crippled.) I think in this situation a star of clan battlemechs would still clear up a company of Inner Sphere battlemechs without much trouble. It would be even worse for the Inner Sphere forces if they did not combine.

<S>
Radick

Edit: small grammer error fixed

Edited by Radick, 02 July 2012 - 05:32 PM.


#12 WardenWolf

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PostRadick, on 02 July 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

You probably remember last night's game, Bondsman....

Yes, yes, as Fire for Effect pointed out in BT tabletop the clans were at a substantial advantage. It think my wider experience with the various video games, where apparently clan tech was generally nerfed (though still better than IS stuff) has colored my thoughts about what it would take to balance teams properly. Hopefully the devs will have plenty of data to sift through in determining how to balance clan tech with the IS stuff we will all have once the time comes :)

#13 Hunson Abadeer

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:56 AM

I don't see why they need to nerf Clantech. The Clans are canonical munchkins, so let them play as such. Clantech is overpowered, but the check against that was the Clans' obsession with bidding down their forces. Just put a Clan Star (5) against an Inner Sphere Company (12).

The Adder/Puma is a 35-ton OmniMech with a BV of 1,560. An AS7-D is a 100-ton 'Mech with a BV of 1,557.

Let the munchkins munch. Being outnumbered will be a natural check on the size of the Clans as they will have trouble finding games if too many munchkins want to play as the Clans relative to the number of Sphere pilots, so some will likely return to the Inner Sphere side of things.

They should also cap the Clans to just the original invaders -- Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jaguar. If by October of next year it is clear that Steel Viper and Nova Cat could be supported by the player base, they could add them.

#14 WardenWolf

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostHunson Abadeer, on 03 July 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I don't see why they need to nerf Clantech. The Clans are canonical munchkins, so let them play as such. Clantech is overpowered, but the check against that was the Clans' obsession with bidding down their forces. Just put a Clan Star (5) against an Inner Sphere Company (12).

For some reason, 12 v 5 seems too imbalanced to my mind... but it is probably just because I'm not abstracting far enough. If that is what it takes for balance (giving both sides a fair chance at victory) then so be it :)

View PostHunson Abadeer, on 03 July 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

They should also cap the Clans to just the original invaders -- Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jaguar. If by October of next year it is clear that Steel Viper and Nova Cat could be supported by the player base, they could add them.

Agreed!

#15 Hunson Abadeer

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:22 AM

You could field a 35-ton Light 'Mech that would have the same BV as my 100-ton Assault 'Mech.

It gets insane when you allow Clanners to use the other weight classes. On the upper end, for example, an entire Company of AS7-D Atlases would have a combined BV of 18,684. A single Star of Dire Wolf-C's would have 88% of the BV despite being outnumbered more than 2:1. If all players are going to be free to pilot what they want to pilot, Clanners should be kept to Stars. Allowing them to use Binaries (10) would force Inner Sphere players to use only the Assault 'Mechs just to be able to compete.

The 12-on-5 model would allow both sides to use all weight classes as they see fit. Otherwise, no one will use Jenners (669 BV) and whatnot because they would be dooming their team against the Clanners.

View PostWardenWolf, on 03 July 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

For some reason, 12 v 5 seems too imbalanced to my mind... but it is probably just because I'm not abstracting far enough. If that is what it takes for balance (giving both sides a fair chance at victory) then so be it :)


#16 lllWAVElll

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:35 PM

Great ideas for the eventual implementation of the Clan Invasion into this game WardenWolf! :)

A lot of your awesome ideas look remarkably similar to these brilliant ideas posted in this thread here: (http://mwomercs.com/...ration-revival/) :)





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