30 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

I freely admit that I think base rushing is the lamest part of CW. The whole strategy of dumping 48 mechs on objective rushing while partially ignoring combat just seems pretty lame.

However, for the purposes of this thread, I will be agnostic on the issue. Maybe it is up to the players to adapt to this rather than PGI intervening. Maybe something could be off and PGI needs to tweak it.

• Player/unit adaption for base rush tactics: Players or coordinated teams can tailor their decks in anticipation of a certain tactic. On invasion defense, perhaps few extra FS9-A/S, streaks(streakcrows), and DPS rather than back to back energy boats. For rushing on attack, perhaps extra lights w/ extra JJs and some ECM. Clans lack the mechs for a light rush but they can still rush with Ice Ferrets or their larger mechs. Units also need to try to adapt by legging rather than spreading damage everywhere.

• Streaks: There is a big disparity between Clan/IS on streaks. The Streakcrow is one hell of a light swatter and also deals with larger mechs if it has to. The Streakfox/Streakadder are not half bad either. On the other hand, the KTO-18 is underwhelming since it is limited to streak-2s. It can hurt lights but does not perform nearly as well against larger mechs compared to the Streakcrow and Streakdog. IS vs IS light rushes may have a higher success rate since IS lacks a true Streakcrow equivalent.

• Light Rushes: Inner Sphere has the advantage here since they have the superior lights. However, I have seen Ice Ferrets used by clans to do almost exactly the same thing minus the JJs. The success rate of hopping 12 spiders over two gates, killing all three o-gens, and maybe hurting the gun seems pretty good. After that, expect two waves of assaults and another wave of lights on the way with just the Gun left.

• Heavy Rushes: The HBR and TBR are usually faster than their IS counterparts. This means the Clan side can sometimes just run past the slower IS mechs. The speed differences of the larger mechs are about 89/107 vs 64/80 estim. I am still not certain of the success rates here for both IS and Clan. IS heavy rushes can be done as well because of the high success their faster lights have. For the remaining IS heavys, they may only have to finish off a half destroyed gun. Tough call.

• Failed Rushes: We have all seen these. A whole wave comes in, dies, and the score is close to 12-0 and maybe you only lost 1 o-gen. This is a hole that cannot the recovered from and is the main downside to a rush, particularly a heavy rush.

So yeah, I just wanted to make a thread about this topic to see the current opinions on it.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 31 March 2015 - 03:01 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Generators need more health, some cheese mechs can sololy (especially some IS lights) shred a generator in a few seconds.

This kinda is totally nonsense because this means defenders would have to totally prevent ANYONE from reaching the generator, which is practically not possible vs somehwat orgnaised rushes and with thse tight maps..

The cheese builds are the entire reason why CW breaks, they are so far superior for what CW requires that the non cheesebuild user hardly has a chance even if he can get to the generator.
This is for newbies or lesser experienced players not very appealing

buffing hitpoints to counter these cheesebuilds will also and again just penalise the non cheesies. So probably, a mechanic like the capture points or assault mode do have would be a better way to "destroy" or disable the generators.

Edited by Lily from animove, 31 March 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[Paigan]

What Lily said.


Last time we got totally light-rushed (omega at 75% on the first wave despite reaction quite well to the lights, killing them okay, etc.) I thought: If this is supposed to be a viable option, then there wouldn't be any mechs > 35t in the universe.

As there are heavier mechs, that must naturally mean that such a strategy is unwantedly overpowered and hence must be nerfed.

TBH my impression is the whole CW mode is a much much too special-cased style of playing.
You have exactely one big target, generators that protect it, gates as initial buffers, generators for the gates, special-tailored terrain for all the specific tactical elements of this one particular scenario.
You also can't use the terrain for much else because it is so special-tailored, which seems like a kind of waste of development time to me.

It's like MWO Dota.

And because it is such a specialcased niche szenario, it is susceptible for special case strategies.

Shouldn't mech battles be something different?
Like a giant map where scouting is actually needed and different strategies (like speed or stealth or all-out assault) can work equally?


CW could very well be just a series of special game modes on generic maps, like:
1.) A little more complex scouting of a map for a dropship landing zone
2.) Defending the dropship after it has landed
3.) Scout another map a little for strategic targets (Cannons or otherwise)
4.) Some matches where a strategic target is attacked
5.) Some Counter-attack matches

All on generic maps (we could have 5-10 more of those by now if the special-tailored maps wouldn't have been to be developed), all that would be required is a little scripting for objectives, target objects, etc.

Edited by Paigan, 31 March 2015 - 04:21 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Something else they need to do is either re-work how ECM operates or revisit the damn trial mechs.

I know this is mainly a product of there being an event in CW this weekend, but the overwhelming waves of new players in trial mechs is frustrating beyond hope.

Match after match this weekend, I was on teams with at least 50% new players and/or trial mechs....many times, the percentage of trial mechs was over 70%.

I know that doesn't sound all that bad, but the Clan trials all have heat problems, tend to be LRM heavy and were NOT designed with ECM in mind. There's nothing quite like having 8 of your 12 teammates trying to stand in the back and fire LRMs...but there are no red triangles. New players don't realize you can fire them without a lock.

So, it becomes one noobstomp after the other...over and over and over....

[Paigan]

Willard Phule, on 31 March 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

Something else they need to do is either re-work how ECM operates or revisit the damn trial mechs.

I know this is mainly a product of there being an event in CW this weekend, but the overwhelming waves of new players in trial mechs is frustrating beyond hope.

Match after match this weekend, I was on teams with at least 50% new players and/or trial mechs....many times, the percentage of trial mechs was over 70%.

I know that doesn't sound all that bad, but the Clan trials all have heat problems, tend to be LRM heavy and were NOT designed with ECM in mind. There's nothing quite like having 8 of your 12 teammates trying to stand in the back and fire LRMs...but there are no red triangles. New players don't realize you can fire them without a lock.

So, it becomes one noobstomp after the other...over and over and over....

Don't want to offend you, but the topic is base rush, not random CW ranting.

[Mcgral18]

Clan's don't have the firepower of the FS9 with the (F2P)Fridge, so it will be more effective with the Cheetah (which can also jump the gates). Most maps have gates you can walk over, so it's only a couple seconds saved with JJs.

6 SPLs is 36 damage at 180M, while 3 SRM6s is 36 at less distance(spread, or Art for no ammo), for a tad less heat.

The D arm would allow for comparable firepower with a bit more sustainability, at 5 SPLs+6 pack missile, while also being able to tank turrets better being 15 tons heavier.


I think the Hankyus will be more effective, overall. While they can't avoid the aimbot turrets, they will have a smaller profile which players might find harder to hit, while potentially also having the JJ void shield.


There will be a new onslaught of complaints coming in July, I have little doubt of that. Rushing will likely still be a thing, since it's hard to fix if people want 3 minute wins.



It's not very fun, but it is the most effective way to tag a planet.

[Lily from animove]

Paigan, on 31 March 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Don't want to offend you, but the topic is base rush, not random CW ranting.

it still kinda applie,s what should newbies testing out CW with trial mechs do?

They can not be part of the cheeserun and so will not enjoy the winning side if they are attacking.
They can not be part of a proper defence vs cheesebuilds, and so hardly will enjoy the defending side.

They are part of CW, and part of the rushes on both sides. So they partially belong to the topic.

[AlmightyAeng]

Whether or not we send in lights to take out gens and turrets, our goal is always to kill 48 of you guys before killing Omega.

[Paigan]

Lily from animove, on 31 March 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

it still kinda applie,s what should newbies testing out CW with trial mechs do?

They can not be part of the cheeserun and so will not enjoy the winning side if they are attacking.
They can not be part of a proper defence vs cheesebuilds, and so hardly will enjoy the defending side.

They are part of CW, and part of the rushes on both sides. So they partially belong to the topic.

Partially, ok

[Jman5]

One problem I have is the terrain around generators inexplicably favors the attackers.

For example, the generators are usually tucked into these little terrain cubbyholes. However, there is space between the terrain wall and generator to the sides and back. So little lights wedge themselves into these highly protected spots where it's very difficult to even get a clean shot on them. The generators need to be slid back so they rest right up against the cliff wall. You should not be able to to use the generator to shield you from the defenders.

Another problem I have is that stupid smoke that billows out of generators when they take damage. I can't flipping see the enemy when there is this thick smoke everywhere. The rusher on the other hand knows exactly where he needs to aim.

[Hotthedd]

Not to mention the HUGE drop I get in my FPS when facing a 12 light rush. I cannot be the only one.

But some COD players wanted respawns in this game, so what do you expect other than exploiting bad game design?

[S204STi]

This may have already been mentioned, but what if we add a condition that killing Omega only gets you the win if you have a higher kill count? Or basically make counter-attack rules the default for assaults.

The only other thing I would suggest doing is to lower the number of zones on a planet so that a smaller number of wins will take it. Light rushing mainly happens because just one company of attackers has a hard time capping a planet in the time allotted if they have to stop and fight on every drop.

Edited by S204STi, 31 March 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Lord Jay]

I still like the idea of adding 2 or 3 short range ecm immune streak 6 turrets near each gen. Easy to kill for a ranged mech but not something a light is going to want to stand near. Maybe reduce the health of all turrets at bit to compensate.

[Divine Retribution]

I'll post the same opinion I've posted in every CW base rush thread that has come up.

Attacking should be the most difficult CW mode. Changing objectives to destroy omega and have the kill lead at the end of the match (like counterattack) is the simplest solution that reflects how difficult an invasion should be.

It wouldn't really impact how my unit plays, so I might be a little biased. Some of the ideas in here seemed aimed at stopping the light rush but they wouldn't impact the clan SCR/TBR/HBR rushes much, so I guess they are biased as well. I'm in favor of my option because it ends rushes altogether. Want the planet? Defeat the entrenched enemy forces and take down the gun.

If PGI adds 4v4 raids or whatever other game mode they want, they can add rushing to them. Make a mode get in, hit the target, get back out. Invasion shouldn't be that mode.

[Mcgral18]

Lord Jay, on 31 March 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

I still like the idea of adding 2 or 3 short range ecm immune streak 6 turrets near each gen. Easy to kill for a ranged mech but not something a light is going to want to stand near. Maybe reduce the health of all turrets at bit to compensate.

The aimbots are more effective than the RNG missiles. A brace of Short range weapons would be effective.

[Telmasa]

My opinion on this is pretty straightforward.

It sucks.
It makes the game suck.
Players that choose to do it also suck. There is really no abillity or skill involved there, it's just zerg-derping.

PGI needs to fix it, and spawncamping, by either repairing or removing the maps that encourage & favor it.

[Mystere]

If people want much stronger defenses, then drop decks should follow 3:1 or larger ratios of attackers vs. defenders. How many armies do you know of that have successfully assaulted a fortified position using a 1:1 ratio?

[Jakob Knight]

Light rushing is a tactic that is completely in keeping with the purpose behind an attack where the point is to take out an objective as opposed to reducing an enemy force. In the original material, such missions were called Strike missions, and the units used for such missions were, indeed, light and medium battlemechs, because of their speed.

In any objective-based side of the game, this must remain a valid tactical option, or the entire idea that the game mode is about achieving objectives instead of simple rock-em-sock-em-robots becomes invalid. It is useful to note that it remains a tactic solely when a force is on the one mission type, and is the attacker. In other mission types, other classes of mech and other tactics are better and used far more often. At the same time, the tactic can be defeated if the Defender is properly equipped and deployed to do so, or if the attacking force does not act with coordination. It is far from the 'I Win' button some players like to paint it as, but instead is simply the best tactical option open to an attacking force faced with a superior defending force that will outgun, out-ton, and out-position them if they elect to engage in open fighting, and who gains instant reinforcements directly into their lines when taking losses, unlike the attackers who must have their reinforcements travel a significant distance to back up their teammates. Under such conditions, not using light mechs to bypass the defending force and attack the entire point of the battle instead is intentionally setting your team on the path to defeat against a defending force that is even close to competent.

I would also note that the Light rush tactic is one that was known to be possible when the idea of multiple respawns were put forth, and the playerbase overwhelmingly approved of the mechanic. If there were no respawns, there would be no such tactic except as a desperate measure of last resort. However, the idea of a suicide wave will remain with us as long as the respawn mechanic is in CW, so don't think anything will stop a team from using that composition whenever they feel like it. If you truly don't like the situation with this tactic, then you should push for removal of respawns. That is the only way to really get rid of it.

Finally, remember that CW is about more than simple fighting. It's about achieving the mission, and deciding on the best composition of the force you take to accomplish that mission is a vital part of CW. The idea that doing so is somehow 'lame', or 'sucks' seems rather ignorant of this, and I suspect people holding this attitude really don't understand what they are stepping into when they elect to enter CW.

If a defending force wants to engage an attacker when they are defending an objective they know is the target of the attackers, it is up to them to bring the attacking force to battle, and with their superior position, it is entirely on them if they fail to do so.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 31 March 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Paigan, on 31 March 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Don't want to offend you, but the topic is base rush, not random CW ranting.

Again, that all has a lot to do with it.

I've landed the "odd man out" slot in 10 and 11 mans before. They all own every mech they use, have them mastered and moduled, and built for specific jobs.

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen the light rush absolutely crushed by a team that has a lance of "interceptors" (SCR /KFX / ADR SSRM boats and the like).

Additionally, when they use LRMs, it's effective because the guys in the front, both spotters and brawlers, all pack CAP. Again, the difference between mechs that have been customized vs the pieces of crap PGI gives to new players.

That's my point.

[Carpenocturn]

As Jacob Knight said

Exactly right. The mission matters in CW above the means to achieve it.
The western worlds militaries do not tolerate a 90% material and pilot loss to achieve a mission. They will only give the go ahead to missions they have thrashed out and believe are achieveible. CW is not bound by this.
Light rush is alive and well because not only can you risk the loss of 240-1250 without winning, you can expect to win after having risked it.

Objectives that are, Take and hold. Defend.
for points, resources, attack zones, closing gates, repairing facilities etc, battlefield information etc