109 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 31 March 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

And milking damage (eg. C-Bills).
Lights kill quickly with little damage, penetrating rear armor or exposed locations.
Lights do not get in protracted fights, or the tonnage to play the range game.
Total damage is not a good metric for effectiveness, especially for light mechs.
Look at kills.

Damage = money period.

[Lynx7725]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

I'm not comfortable using match score until I can see what all the score variables are. It used to be relatively simple with +10 for win, +1 per 10 points of damage, +1 for kill/assist. However they seem to have added a bunch of other things. I know with my TAG LRM mech I gets all sorts of crazy high scores from some TAG-based reward I'm reaping. If someone knows where I can figure this out I might see what sort of numbers it leads to.

I've sort of looked; there isn't. But what I can say is that doing things like Scouting, Flanking, etc. adds to the score tremendously if you do it right, and it can be a significant amount of the match score. On a good match, you can score 15 to 20 points, against as low as 300 points of damage -- it depends on the game situation and how you position your mech to assist the team.

And to be honest, it's not so much if you are comfortable, and more of that it's a consistent unit of measure on everyone in the games from Reward 2.0. We don't actually need to know what's in the black box. What we need to see if there's a correlation between lights and heavies match scores. If lights (and mediums) are scoring about the same as heavies and assaults, then the bias of the queues towards heavier classes is based more on perception of utility on the players' part, and not so much on the actual game mechanics.

[Navy Sixes]

I think the reduction of effectiveness in regard to assaults stems from the lack of mobility. To effectively employ an assault, you really can't "sandbox" around on a map, "looking for trouble." Good assault pilots know the maps, know the choke-points where the battles will most likely shape up, and head there on rails, a freight train full o' carnage. They know that every time they stop, turn, back up, and turn again, they lose too much time being away from where they need to be.

The lower-damage percentages are (I'm guessing) people who don't get this and try to explore new nooks and crannies in their 50kph slow-bot. These are the ones who get there late, if they're lucky. Most of the time they don't get there at all, since they were jumped early by lights or get picked off in the end at some obscure corner of the map while their dead-and-spectating teammates call them horrible names in chat.

Heavies really are the best of all worlds. You carry enough firepower and armor to square off with the big mechs, and you usually have the option to drop in a fast enough engine so that you can maneuver fast enough to deal with the lights.

I like heavies; the cat was my first mastered mech. After that, I decided the game was more fun for me at speed, so I dropped into mediums. I've played around with a few lights, but that's really too fast and too small for me.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 31 March 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

167 average damage is terrible.
At least you're usually breaking 200 damage. Still not that impressive.

Both incorrect.

[Jman5]

Lynx7725, on 31 March 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

I've sort of looked; there isn't. But what I can say is that doing things like Scouting, Flanking, etc. adds to the score tremendously if you do it right, and it can be a significant amount of the match score. On a good match, you can score 15 to 20 points, against as low as 300 points of damage -- it depends on the game situation and how you position your mech to assist the team.

And to be honest, it's not so much if you are comfortable, and more of that it's a consistent unit of measure on everyone in the games from Reward 2.0. We don't actually need to know what's in the black box. What we need to see if there's a correlation between lights and heavies match scores. If lights (and mediums) are scoring about the same as heavies and assaults, then the bias of the queues towards heavier classes is based more on perception of utility on the players' part, and not so much on the actual game mechanics.

Ugh, did they really put scouting bonus into the match score formula? That's such a BS stat for padding your cbills/xp. Anyway, I'll see what I can do, but I don't want to make any promises.

[Yokaiko]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

Ugh, did they really put scouting bonus into the match score formula? That's such a BS stat for padding your cbills/xp. Anyway, I'll see what I can do, but I don't want to make any promises.

Barely, all while nerfing the hell out of things like tag and NARC.

Pualcomony FTL.

[Skarlock]

Here are the theories I would put forth.

Heavies are best in the damage department for a few reasons. Please read THE ENTIRE SET OF ARGUMENTS I am making before you have a coronary if you have strong feelings about clan/IS balance.

1. The Timber Wolf. It is 90 kph, jump jet capable, and very optimized in terms of space and free tonnage. As a 75 ton mech, it only gets to mount a paltry 27 tons of guns and heat sinks with near full armor because of the large engine, but clan technology really boosts this potential by a large margin. It has the speed to get to the fight early, get an optimal position and a head start on similar tonnage mechs ahead of the enemy team, and the stamina plus resilience to keep cranking out big damage.

This brings us to big (counter) point number 2.

2. IS Quirks for some heavies are amazing. IS heavies got some of the biggest quirk bonuses for mechs that also really have the free tonnage to take maximum advantage of these quirks. While there are some standouts from other chassis categories for quirk power such as firestarters and wolverines, I would argue the thunderbolts, quickdraws, and the dragon-1N are probably some of the most formidable mechs in the IS collection overall when you look at combined speed, firepower, resilience, and stamina. This only makes sense to me as the quirks were meant to bring about balance to both IS and Clan mechs, and the Timber Wolf sets the bar incredibly high.

3. Assault mechs don't deliver the same kind of numbers due to the fact they are focused harder than heavies. This is actually well and good, because it means the player base is paying attention. An unchecked dire wolf or king crab in the hands of a smart player will single-handedly obliterate an enemy team. 500 damage pales in comparison to their potential if they aren't killed with extreme quickness. Try 1000 damage a game as a trivial feat when left to their own devices, or 1500 damage, or even higher numbers in extreme circumstances. Most people know and understand this, and will often go to great lengths to finish off an assault mech. Because these mechs tend to soak the most enemy fire when exposed, they have to either play careful and limit their exposure (and shot opportunities, thus lowering their damage potential) or play very aggressive and burn bright, but short, leaving the heavies to mop up and pad their damage scores.

Edited by Skarlock, 31 March 2015 - 09:03 PM.

[wolf74]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Nice Data map
Question do you have the Info to Brake it in to 8 Charts VS the 4 you have.
AKA I.S. L/M/H/A and Clan L/M/H/A groups

[Yokaiko]

Skarlock, on 31 March 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

3. Assault mechs don't deliver the same kind of numbers due to the fact they are focused harder than heavies. This is actually well and good, because it means the player base is paying attention. An unchecked dire wolf or king crab in the hands of a smart player will single-handedly obliterate an enemy team. 500 damage pales in comparison to their potential if they aren't killed with extreme quickness. Try 1000 damage a game as a trivial feat when left to their own devices, or 1500 damage, or even higher numbers in extreme circumstances. Most people know and understand this, and will often go to great lengths to finish off an assault mech. Because these mechs tend to soak the most enemy fire when exposed, they have to either play careful and limit their exposure (and shot opportunities, thus lowering their damage potential) or play very aggressive and burn bright, but short, leaving the heavies to mop up and pad their damage scores.

Not really its more like you can basically count on the non-assault lances to basically run away from you, so by the time you get to the fight you are 3 mechs short OR you get light zerged trying to catch up.

The complete and utter lack of map awareness the average pug game presents is frighteningly low.


SO yah, the combination of firepower and mobility the heavies offer makes them pretty much optimal since you don't have to rely on your team not being derps. Want to see a difference, run a Hellbringer and roll with the assaults, guaranteed deathball by default.

[Skarlock]

Xmith, on 31 March 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Almost half the queue are heavy mechs. So what are you trying to say? There are just more people piloting heavy mechs?

There are more heavy mechs in the queue. That's why the damage numbers are higher.

He's averaging it per heavy mech, not the sum of all the heavies in the game added together...

Edited by Skarlock, 31 March 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[Skarlock]

Yokaiko, on 31 March 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

Not really its more like you can basically count on the non-assault lances to basically run away from you, so by the time you get to the fight you are 3 mechs short OR you get light zerged trying to catch up.

The complete and utter lack of map awareness the average pug game presents is frighteningly low.


SO yah, the combination of firepower and mobility the heavies offer makes them pretty much optimal since you don't have to rely on your team not being derps. Want to see a difference, run a Hellbringer and roll with the assaults, guaranteed deathball by default.

I play heavies, assaults, mediums, and light mechs, IS and Clan alike. While I know exactly what you are talking about, I would have to say that when I'm in my dire wolf as of late, the majority of the time I do not get abandoned. If anything I hear people scream "stop nascaring like idiots!" more often than people encouraging others to run forward at the cost of splitting up heavily and letting the assaults get picked off. This is my own personal experience though. It would be interesting if we could somehow get a statistic that would perhaps tell us how often this situation happens though, but it would be difficult I think.

[Gyrok]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 31 March 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

These are my light stats. They're bad.

COM-3A: 228
RVN-3L: 344
COM-TDK: 276
FS9-A: 319
LCT-1E: 367
ADR-P: 326
KFX-P: 279
MLX-P: 300
PNT-10K: 385 (u w0t m8?)

I also wish it was keeping CW stats. I've been using a Myst Lynx in it and getting about between 5-7 kills.

My best light is a raven, followed by FS9-S

Raven average is 384, FS average is 362

[Lynx7725]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

Ugh, did they really put scouting bonus into the match score formula? That's such a BS stat for padding your cbills/xp. Anyway, I'll see what I can do, but I don't want to make any promises.

I'm fairly sure scouting pays money and XP, but not sure if it adds into the Match Score -- all three have different formulas, so it's not the same.

Scouting is quite important in game, as it is an end reward for first targeting a previously untargeted enemy; the upshot is that you transmit information to the rest of your team, leading to better individual decisions. The fact that I can pick up many scouting while in a LRM medium hanging out on the flanks long after the two teams contacted is testament to how many clowns in the main line that refuses or outright don't know how to target the enemy...

[Jman5]

Lynx7725, on 31 March 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure scouting pays money and XP, but not sure if it adds into the Match Score -- all three have different formulas, so it's not the same.

Scouting is quite important in game, as it is an end reward for first targeting a previously untargeted enemy; the upshot is that you transmit information to the rest of your team, leading to better individual decisions. The fact that I can pick up many scouting while in a LRM medium hanging out on the flanks long after the two teams contacted is testament to how many clowns in the main line that refuses or outright don't know how to target the enemy...

The reason I'm critical of the scouting bonus is because you don't really need to target an enemy. Spamming the R button without providing any paper doll info to you or the team doesn't really help much. If you actually had to hold target until the paper doll popped up it would be useful.

[Sarlic]

A big part of the problem is that the system is missing a additional reward (bonus) system.

Scouting is not viable.

Not many people are playing the scout right. And are here to slap (insert light meta) to cause damage.

The game is not about damage, sure it has a role but teamwork is far more imporant. Sadly puglandia is not very known for it's teamwork.

[Lynx7725]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

The reason I'm critical of the scouting bonus is because you don't really need to target an enemy. Spamming the R button without providing any paper doll info to you or the team doesn't really help much. If you actually had to hold target until the paper doll popped up it would be useful.

Eh, just so that we are on the same page, the paper doll info as I understand it is always from the targeting/ firing unit; the "spotter" doesn't pass paper doll info along, just "there's this joker here!". That's why UAVs never provide paper doll information.

Just targeting the enemy, even if it's cycling, is quite useful in a team context. If the scout has to cycle, he's saying there's multiple enemies in this location. Just knowing that info will allow me to position my mech in a position to intercept, and if the team is good individually, multiple pilots would form up a kill box to intercept that bunch.

[Random Carnage]

This thread is 4 pages in, still on topic, and has yet to degenerate into abuse. That's gotta be some kind of record.

As a dedicated assult pilot, KGC-000, I tend to often run in the area of 700-900 damage, with upwards of 1100 not uncommon.

To achieve this however, I am virtually reliant on finding a PUG that doesn't run off and abandon me, has at least one light willing to provide either ecm cover or sweep to deter narc bunnies that inevitably race up behind us, trust that not too many blue muppits will park their asses right behind me and block what limited mobility I have, and that some dumbarse light or crow (usually thise two) won't keep running infront of my firing lines.

Being an Assult pilot can be very frustrating at times. You virtually NEVER get help when you need it, even when you call on VOIP. Blues tent to ghost away and hide when it gets hot rather than give you some cover while you try to move 100 tonnes of boat anchor.

For the amount of fire power flying around these days, assult mechs are under-armoured given their mobility limits, and ghost heat means we can't pack any more punch that a heavy in any meaning ful terms.

[The Ratfink]

I was quite surprised when I put my stats into Excel and worked out the averages. Firstly the mechs I though I did the best in were half way down the list with regards to KD and Average Dmg. Here are my top performers in each weight bracket with over 25 games each.

KD Ratio DMG/Match DMG/Kill Kill/Match DMG/T/Match
PIRATES' BANE 1.53 229.88 221.04 1.04 11.49
ENFORCER ENF-4R 1.88 365.35 316.63 1.15 7.31
ZEUS ZEU-6S 4 414.08 269.15 1.54 5.18
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9S 4.75 402.09 232.79 1.73 6.19


I think these are skewed a bit by the fact they are my current rides and I'm improving as a player all the time so they may be better because I have more experience.

Edited by The Ratfink, 01 April 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[Tarogato]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

This probably wont come as a surprise to many, but I thought it would be nice to illustrate why the light queue tends to be so low, and why the heavy queue is always so high. Damage number are abnormally high for Heavy mechs, and dismally low for light mechs. It's not exactly an Earth shattering revelation, but people like doing damage and the heavy is the damage king by a mile.

Here, I broke down a bunch of games for you guys. I'll admit this isn't a huge sample size, but it's about 300 points of data in the solo queue.
<img>
167 average damage is terrible. Is it really any surprise no one wants to play lights? Also look at all those people who were in the 1-99 damage section. It's the biggest chunk!
<img>
At least you're usually breaking 200 damage. Still not that impressive. Again no surprise that mediums are the second least played. Also of note, the biggest chunk is in the 100-199 section. Not good.
<img>
TO THE MOON!!! So we went from 231 to 375. That's a huge spike. And the biggest piece of the pie is 500+ damage!
<img>
And here we come crashing back to Earth. Assault damage numbers are actually what you would expect to see from heavies, which is a little weird. However it does seem pretty nicely split between each damage section.
<img>
As you can see average damage numbers go way out of wack when we get to heavies.

Weirdly though when you flip Assault and Heavy around you get a pretty nice line.
<img>
So what the heck is going on with Heavies? Are they the perfect storm of mobility, survivability, and firepower? Or is this simply a matter of good players gravitating toward heavies? But then shouldn't Elo correct for skill?

Lord0fHats, on 31 March 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

Oddly the Heavies in MWO are what the mediums should be. A strong blend mobility, survivability, and... killability? W/E.They are the easiest weight class to play well, and even in the hands of inexperienced players can often perform because dakka.

I agree with Hats. Heavies are simply too maneuverable for what they ought to be.

http://www.reddit.co...need_to/cpv49bx

I broke down the topspeeds and average heavy mech runs 78.1kph. What's more important, is that half of all heavy chassis run an average of 89.3kph.

The average medium runs 93.8kph and half of all mediums run 87.7kph.

In other words, 50% of heavies are faster than 50% of mediums. Something about this doesn't seem right...

Edited by Tarogato, 01 April 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Lord0fHats, on 31 March 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

As I said in another thread.



And I think you already have your answer;

[/size]

Oddly the Heavies in MWO are what the mediums should be. A strong blend mobility, survivability, and... killability? W/E.They are the easiest weight class to play well, and even in the hands of inexperienced players can often perform because dakka.

the issue is:

heavies are often as fast as most mediums, therefore mediums do not enjoy this advantage. Only a very few do.
Size, While light mechs have a big chance to spread damage by their size vs non PPFLD weapons, most mediums can not do this, they are as easy to hit in specific locations as heavies. Only a few mediums are an exception.

And so mobility and survivability are not really that much of an advantage unless you play a CDA or a SCR or Kintaro. most others do not really differ much.

Edited by Lily from animove, 01 April 2015 - 02:45 AM.