57 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

Riasiru, on 04 April 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

Sorry, random rant. It just kills immersion when something like that occurs to me.

Maybe you should just think about it less. That's what most people do.

[Molossian Dog]

RedDragon, on 04 April 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

...
I hope you are getting my point - if you don't know what terrain you will face, it will always be better to have mechs on hand than just tanks that would be useless in some situations.

As I said. Cram the droppers full to the max with as combat effective and as generalist as possible units.
And that are mechs.

Rebas Kradd, on 04 April 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Maybe you should just think about it less. That's what most people do.

Why not? It is fun in its own way. Even if you find strange or downright unbelievable stuff.

Trying to find plausible explanations for apparently implausible things is a favourite pastime for many people.
This is how humanity got religion, science, these japanese robots falling over all the time and bureaucracy.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 04 April 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Alistair Winter, on 04 April 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

I do concede that if you're on a desolate planet covered by a whole lot of extremely difficult terrain with spiky rocks or crevasses, and you have only a single vehicle and no one else to help you get unstuck, then the mech is sometimes the better option, if you want to be able to go absolutely everywhere. If you want to cross the Grand Canyon or climb Mount Everest, the mech is better suited.

Canyion network, Alpine Peaks, Viridian Bog, Mining Collective, HPG .. They are all maps where i would rather have a 'Mech (possibly with Jump Jets) than a tank.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Molossian Dog, on 04 April 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

Also: Battletech is not the future. Battletech is the future of the 80ies.

Its not even 80`s future, its just fictional future that we love.

[Gamuray]

Keep in mind mobility isn't the only factor differentiating tanks and mechs. Generalist as was said above is the best word for mechs (well, some. The ones with arms and hands anyways). They are not only combat vehicles, but would also be very useful in terms of collecting salvage, creating defensive positions, repair/relocation/gettingotherthingsunstuck. But also of note, again as said above somewhere, they aren't, in actual battletech, very common by any sense of the word. Assaults being an exceedingly rare sight. Mech numbers would be the difference between the amount of carriers versus other ships in a navy's fleet.

[Mercer Skye]

Gamuray, on 04 April 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Keep in mind mobility isn't the only factor differentiating tanks and mechs. Generalist as was said above is the best word for mechs (well, some. The ones with arms and hands anyways). They are not only combat vehicles, but would also be very useful in terms of collecting salvage, creating defensive positions, repair/relocation/gettingotherthingsunstuck. But also of note, again as said above somewhere, they aren't, in actual battletech, very common by any sense of the word. Assaults being an exceedingly rare sight. Mech numbers would be the difference between the amount of carriers versus other ships in a navy's fleet.

This is a pretty good point. We get caught up in the fact that er'yone in a MW title is a Mechwarrior. Which means gobs and gobs of 'Mech on 'Mech action, when in the lore and 'real' BTech universe, 'mechs only make up the tiniest fractions of military units.

Some of the most popular Merc units had what? Maybe a company (12 'mechs) at most. In support, they'd have dozens of conventional combat vehicles (Tanks, Aerospace), and maybe a company up to a battalion-ish of infantry fighters (~500).

So 'mechs are more like the Knights of old Medieval times.

[LordKnightFandragon]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

Mechs with hands in lore can do one wonderful thing what the other mechs wish they could.













Rock Paper Scissors


(got you imagining it)

RIght before this happens?

[Pjwned]

Meanwhile, Centurions have quirks giving them extra armor for free on their left (shield) arm and extra structure for free on their right (sword) arm.

[Strum Wealh]

Falkwulf, on 04 April 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

Darzok I dont want to be a buzzkill but your information on the yen-lo-wang is in error. Yen lo Wang was a Individual unique mech and the only one like it. Justain-Xaing-Allard built the yen lo from a busted up centurion he accuired on Solaris 7. Without getting into lore and a fanboy forum argument, they yen lo wouldnt/couldnt carry a melee weapon, not enough internal slots and or weight to carry the weapon. It was armed with an AC/20 and 2ML according to the lore books (Warriors Triliogy- En gaurd, Reposte, Coupe) Hence it was individualized and personalized by its pilot. Lotts of folks think that the hero mechs are production mechs the is is a falshood. Almost all of the HERO mechs in MWO are based of a single unique mech of any given weight class. There is no full production run of the HERO mechs they are one of a kind and were never mass produced.

Sarna is absolutly incorrect on the YEN LO. the Original Specs are outlined in the books wich makes no mention of the claws or spikes Sarna has listed. Another SARNA inaccuracy rears its ugly head. Remember folks Sarna is a WIKI that can and has been edited many times by many people, If you want to read the specs for yourself go get the books and read it for yourself I think its paige 88 of reposte that outlines what the yen low actually carried and how it came about. (please stop quoting sarna as actual fact its a WIKI and hence a WIKI is deemed an un-credible source of information, by ALL higher learning institutions.)

As far as arms go all the forum post up to me posting this pretty much said it correctly. Arms and more importantly Hand Actuation, is the mechanic that allows a mech (Atlas for instance) to climb mountains, pick up blown off limbs, elementals, pushing other mechs off buildings. (wife loves pushing mechs off tall buildings to wach them humpty dumpty when they hit the ground) punching, all mechs can kick as well. thats what makes the locust so evil on TT is the fact it can run circles around heavy and assaults literally kicking the stuffing out of them.

Locust were not anti infantry mechs, they were battlemechs thier primary jobs were scouting, flanking, and area denial, PLAy the first mech game in this Franchise and you will learn that fact. Battletech-Crecent Hawks Inception, its told in the newspaper that you read in one of the random towns. Oh and in the mini movie you get to READ in the game.

Darzok, on 04 April 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

I did not know that the YLW info was wrong but the point stands that some mechs do in fact use melee weapons.

I would edit it but since you done a quote to fix my error i will leave it.

Yen-Lo-Wang's original canonical armament included a set of titanium nails as a melee weapon, where these nails are represented on the record sheet by a hatchet for rules-technicality purposes (as claws had not been implemented in the BT rules at the time).

The nails' presence is described in chapter 30 of Warrior: En Garde:
"He raised his 'Mech's left arm and smiled at the titanium-sheathed blades attached to the last three fingers on the 'Mech's hand. He'd had them added to Yen-Lo-Wang in honor of Tsen Shang. The jutting, triangular shards of metal looked fearsome and could slice into another 'Mech's armor, but Justin tended to agreed with Noton's assessment of the weapons. If I get in close enough to have to use these blades, it will be a very desperate fight, indeed."

The nails are also used in the final attack against Billy Wolfson's Rifleman in the following chapter (that is, chapter 31 of Warrior: En Garde), after YLW's AC/20 jams:
"Tightening the grip of his phantom hand, Justin stabbed the 'Mech's left hand into the Rifleman.
The titanium blades slashed like a meat cleaver through the Rifleman's inferior rear armor. Coolant shot out in glowing yellow-green geysers as the nails slashed heat sinks apart. Effortlessly, they punctured the Rifleman's engine shielding. The heat of the resulting explosion washed silver fire over Justin's screens, but he merely flicked off the infrared without a thought. He closed Yen-lo-Wang's left fist around the Rifleman's gyrostabilizer - snapping the titanium nails off - and ripped the crushed mechanism free of the dying 'Mech's body."

Additionally, it should be noted that the record sheet the 3051 refit of Yen Lo Wang (for Justin's son, Kai Allard-Liao, and described in chapter 24 of Blood Legacy) also includes the nails/"hatchet" (per RS 3050U Unabridged IS).
On top of that, the Dark Age refit of Yen Lo Wang (piloted by Kai's cousin, Danai Centrella-Liao) carries both a hatchet (an actual hatchet) and a shield in addition to other weapons (per Danai's character dossier, linked from Sarna).

So, in one form or another, Yen Lo Wang has always has a melee weapon beyond simply having a left hand.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 April 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 05 April 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yen-Lo-Wang's original canonical armament included a set of titanium nails as a melee weapon, where these nails are represented on the record sheet by a hatchet for rules-technicality purposes (as claws had not been implemented in the BT rules at the time).

The nails' presence is described in chapter 30 of Warrior: En Garde:
"He raised his 'Mech's left arm and smiled at the titanium-sheathed blades attached to the last three fingers on the 'Mech's hand. He'd had them added to Yen-Lo-Wang in honor of Tsen Shang. The jutting, triangular shards of metal looked fearsome and could slice into another 'Mech's armor, but Justin tended to agreed with Noton's assessment of the weapons. If I get in close enough to have to use these blades, it will be a very desperate fight, indeed."

The nails are also used in the final attack against Billy Wolfson's Rifleman in the following chapter (that is, chapter 31 of Warrior: En Garde), after YLW's AC/20 jams:
"Tightening the grip of his phantom hand, Justin stabbed the 'Mech's left hand into the Rifleman.
The titanium blades slashed like a meat cleaver through the Rifleman's inferior rear armor. Coolant shot out in glowing yellow-green geysers as the nails slashed heat sinks apart. Effortlessly, they punctured the Rifleman's engine shielding. The heat of the resulting explosion washed silver fire over Justin's screens, but he merely flicked off the infrared without a thought. He closed Yen-lo-Wang's left fist around the Rifleman's gyrostabilizer - snapping the titanium nails off - and ripped the crushed mechanism free of the dying 'Mech's body."

Additionally, it should be noted that the record sheet the 3051 refit of Yen Lo Wang (for Justin's son, Kai Allard-Liao, and described in chapter 24 of Blood Legacy) also includes the nails/"hatchet" (per RS 3050U Unabridged IS).
On top of that, the Dark Age refit of Yen Lo Wang (piloted by Kai's cousin, Danai Centrella-Liao) carries both a hatchet (an actual hatchet) and a shield in addition to other weapons (per Danai's character dossier, linked from Sarna).

So, in one form or another, Yen Lo Wang has always has a melee weapon beyond simply having a left hand.

Not to mention, when foiling the Falcon's "Prince Trap" on Alyina, Kai is described as raking the nails across the gut of a mech and filling it with fire from the MPLs mounted in the same arm (even though rules technically prevent that)

[Monky]

Proper piloting in MWO makes good use of 'shield arms' to protect vitals and improve how much damage you can take. They are very useful in mech to mech combat provided they are decent in geometry, and your other vitals aren't easy to pick off from a side angle. Some mechs do not have good shield arms though, sadly.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Mech without hands can't pick up the Weapons cache

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

OP, clearly you don't understand how to use the CN9 Chassis.

Yes, the CN9 as a whole has a "useless" arm. the left arm, which has additional shield plating on it. This arm is used to tank damage. The CN9 has a great torso traverse speed, it can easily turn away from damage to soak it into that side.

Combine that, with the fact the CN9 has 2 centerline Mlas, [in all but the AH version], Room for a decent ballistic or more lasers, and Missiles on the left Torso, and you can have quite the mean mech that can output a good amount of damage quickly.

Now, in lore, those hands are used for much more than just looks. They are used to help move things, they are used to pick up and move vehicles, they are used for actual attacks, the Yen Lo Wang actually has claws on that hand to aid it in grappling and close combat. And some pilot's take a hatchet or sword, or pick up a pipe or tree on the battlefield with it.

In MWO however, that side, is ment to tank damage... And be thankful it's there.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Falkwulf, on 04 April 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

Locust were not anti infantry mechs, they were battlemechs thier primary jobs were scouting, flanking, and area denial, PLAy the first mech game in this Franchise and you will learn that fact. Battletech-Crecent Hawks Inception, its told in the newspaper that you read in one of the random towns. Oh and in the mini movie you get to READ in the game.

All Battletech/Mechwarrior videogames do not count as canon. so you're actually quite wrong here.

As for the rest of your points, to a degree, eventually, even in the fiction, a company picked up the design ques for the Yen Lo, and went on to make a run of CN9's based off the design for Solaris mechwarriors.

[Alex Morgaine]

Molossian Dog, on 04 April 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

Other uses:

-uprooting trees to use a club
-dragging legged comrades from the battlefield
-ripping out beams to use as a club
-clearing debris and obstacles from blocked roads, especially for the conventionals (tanks etc)
-ripping out limbs to use as a club
-steadying yourself against a cliff/building on slippery or broken terrain
-picking up rocks to use as a club
-digging out friendly mechs under collapsed buildings
-ripping out lanterns to use as a club (or toothpick, depends)
-opening gates and making holes into walls without headbutting them
-wielding light Mechs as a club (requires triple strenght myomer)
-carrying stuff ranging from loot, additional supplies, people (whole or in pieces) construction material etc
-showing the clamz the middle finger (requires middle finger) to use as a club...ehrm...wait...strike that

Give em the club!

[Xetelian]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

Mechs with hands in lore can do one wonderful thing what the other mechs wish they could.













Rock Paper Scissors


(got you imagining it)

It is because the guy on the right has ECM.

[Rubberanvil]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Considering even the MBT of today is largely being obsoleted by shoulder carried weapons, IEDs and Drones,

History been proving you wrong on all of the above; thou replace drones with manned aircraft; since the 1930ies and 1940ies.

[QuantumButler]

Because in their infinite wisdom, PGI decided to leave out a huge core facet of the tabletop BT experience, namely melee combat.

all Mechs can kick for hefty damage, mechs can also hit things with their arms, mechs with hands can punch, or pick up trees or severed mech limbs to club other mechs over the head with, there are even specific melee weapons like axes, hatchets, and so on in BT, and mechs built around using them. Hands also help mechs that have been knocked prone get up easier.

We don't get any of that fun stuff in this game though, making hands and stuff like the banshee's arms more often than not completely pointless.

Edited by QuantumButler, 05 April 2015 - 05:54 PM.